Surgical strike — the Indian fiction

[Joe Shearer]

I was addressing @hellfire there...mentioning his "senior member" title was to appeal to him to maintain the quality of the forum by sticking to logic.

I seem to have got my wires crossed. Or am sinking at ever-increasing pace into senility.

It's one thing to have concrete evidence and therefore know the truth/facts and believe it urself...it's entirely another to expect others to believe it without revealing that evidence.

My only issue here is Indian members making fun of Pakistanis as if they are in denial...however in absence of any solid evidence(withheld for whatever reason as u claim) that's the natural and logical response.

Imagine if Pak claimed surgical strikes and provided no evidence(or conflicting reports emerged in addition to lack of evidence) and then Pakistanis ridiculed Indian members for not believing it. In what universe does that make sense? When did logic and believing things in presence of evidence change? Claims DO NOT EQUAL evidence...as simple as that.

It is for this reason that I find the 'triumphalism' of some Indian members utterly repelling. We should never, ever have made the mistake of saying, in effect, we know it's true, but we can't tell you why!

Ridiculous.

Whatever the case or whatever ur feelings towards Pakistani military...u have to admit that inviting journalists to check out the areas which India claimed to have hit...while India offering no concrete evidence on the other hand...lends credibility to PA discrediting Indian claims.

I will not comment on this. The discussion cannot reach any positive conclusions. I have to confess to a certain degree of jaundice due to recent events in Pakistan.

The tall claims are not by u...the tall claims are made by the Indian government and hence the burden of proof lies on them.

They are a constant source of embarrassment. But a very 'aware' and knowledgeable source has come out with an analysis that explains why that fat flawn Amit Shah lies awake at nights.

It's good to have u back. Members like u should stay. Despite the disagreements...at least u keep a discussion respectful. Recently, so many chest thumping trolls have infested PDF.

However much I might wish it, circumstances are against me.

A passing thought: it seems to me that my bias has always been towards keeping a discussion logical and rational; there have been occasions, not infrequent, a sad confession for one who has nearly done his appointed span of three score years and ten, when impatience and an unwillingness to suffer a fool mastered me.

I wish i knew which worthy forums you are referring to. It would be good to read stuff from there.

I am not rising to that bait!

 

[T-123456]

I seem to have got my wires crossed. Or am sinking at ever-increasing pace into senility.



It is for this reason that I find the 'triumphalism' of some Indian members utterly repelling. We should never, ever have made the mistake of saying, in effect, we know it's true, but we can't tell you why!

Ridiculous.



I will not comment on this. The discussion cannot reach any positive conclusions. I have to confess to a certain degree of jaundice due to recent events in Pakistan.



They are a constant source of embarrassment. But a very 'aware' and knowledgeable source has come out with an analysis that explains why that fat flawn Amit Shah lies awake at nights.



However much I might wish it, circumstances are against me.

A passing thought: it seems to me that my bias has always been towards keeping a discussion logical and rational; there have been occasions, not infrequent, a sad confession for one who has nearly done his appointed span of three score years and ten, when impatience and an unwillingness to suffer a fool mastered me.



I am not rising to that bait!

He is alive!

 

[Hellfire]

What does that mean - that you think he has changed considerably?
Please point it out. Thanks.

Please head here & review. You will find my two quote interaction with him there.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...surgical-strike-inside-pakistan.452200/page-5

U r a senior member here...so I assume u have the capacity to set aside the normal bravado and chest thumping and look at the facts and logic for a moment. The reasoning u give as proof of surgical strikes..."bcuz Pakistanis are denying it still...so it must have happened" is nothing but u gripping at straws. A simpler explanation could be that Pakistanis/Pakistan is denying it bcuz it didn't happen.

Although you all still did not get the point I made, I shall still try:

'..they need to still emphasize it never happened is enough to indicate that something did happen.'

If you would just stop posting so much on it, the issue will become non-issue. Step back and analyze, why so much effort being put here? A denial once, is enough to drive in your point, right?

Read it in series:

'...merely gives credence.'

Where is the bold portion?

Also, have posted a link, go through my posts in the relevant thread. You will have your answers.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...surgical-strike-inside-pakistan.452200/page-5

Read the whole thread for my comments

 

[YeBeWarned]

To all Pakistani members: if you think it did not happen, that's fine; stop talking about it and picking at the scab on each and every occasion. The more publicity you give it, the more oxygen you give the poltroons and cowards who are taking political advantage of it, and the more ridiculous become the protests saying that it never happened.

fair point ..

 

[Hellfire]

Please read my post carefully, for two reasons: first, I, too assume that I have the capacity to set aside the normal bravado and chest thumping, and look at the facts and the logic, but not because I am a 'senior' member, whatever that animal is; I assume that is true because I am a rational person, and also an exceptionally well-informed person. @hellfire 's original reconstruction within eight hours of the incident were exaggerated and wrong in several vital details (these were in private conversations, none of which came into PDF), but later the full picture emerged, and it is utterly factual.

I do not feel the need to seek certificates by adducing concrete evidence; one of us has already faced censure from the authorities for what he revealed in his enthusiasm.

I did lay out the truth immediately on the thread .. have given the link for @Cookie Monster to go through sequentially on posts of 29 Sep 2016.

 

[YeBeWarned]

'..they need to still emphasize it never happened is enough to indicate that something did happen.'

If you would just stop posting so much on it, the issue will become non-issue. Step back and analyze, why so much effort being put here? A denial once, is enough to drive in your point, right?

Read it in series:

you cant use this logic cause whatever discussion you see its only limited to PDF and some Army enthusiast , there is no word from either Media in a long time nor Army so this means we are not talking about it .. For me in my personal Capacity ,I will not believe Indian Claims no matter where they come from because of a Habitual Lying on numerous matters . IA is famously accused of exaggeration , lying and faking encounters which all easily available for people to see . unless IA brings up a undeniable prove the story remains shady and foggy .

 

[Hellfire]

I was addressing @hellfire there...mentioning his "senior member" title was to appeal to him to maintain the quality of the forum by sticking to logic.

Ah, my friend. My 'title' - only if it were a means to enforce behaviour over here! Look around, what do you see?

Point was as he explained, stop making a write up a day if you deny it. Your vehement denials only serve to undermine the position you have taken

 

[Cookie Monster]

Please head here & review. You will find my two quote interaction with him there.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...surgical-strike-inside-pakistan.452200/page-5



Although you all still did not get the point I made, I shall still try:

View attachment 518546

'..they need to still emphasize it never happened is enough to indicate that something did happen.'

If you would just stop posting so much on it, the issue will become non-issue. Step back and analyze, why so much effort being put here? A denial once, is enough to drive in your point, right?

Read it in series:

View attachment 518547

'...merely gives credence.'

Where is the bold portion?

Also, have posted a link, go through my posts in the relevant thread. You will have your answers.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...surgical-strike-inside-pakistan.452200/page-5

Read the whole thread for my comments

So let me get this straight. Indian gov makes a claim of "surgical strikes" and offers no proof. In absence of any proof Pakistanis deny it. Keep in mind it's not ISPR denying it over and over.

There's about 200 million Pakistanis...a few dozen deny it(individually) on PDF, while a few journalists write articles about it, a few anchors report on it and deny it on TV, etc. So each person voicing their opinion(which is logical in absence of evidence)...u tally it up as proof that something then must've happened? Do u get that logic? Bcuz I certainly don't.

If I claim to have met aliens and then offer no proof. In response ppl are skeptical of my claims and deny that any such thing occurred...I should say..."oh look at all u ppl denying it over and over...it must mean it really happened"

That's some ridiculous logic u got there.

 

[Hellfire]

So let me get this straight. Indian gov makes a claim of "surgical strikes" and offers no proof. In absence of any proof Pakistanis deny it. Keep in mind it's not ISPR denying it over and over.

There's about 200 million Pakistanis...a few dozen deny it(individually) on PDF, while a few journalists write articles about it, a few anchors report on it and deny it on TV, etc. So each person voicing their opinion(which is logical in absence of evidence)...u tally it up as proof that something then must've happened? Do u get that logic? Bcuz I certainly don't.

If I claim to have met aliens and then offer no proof. In response ppl are skeptical of my claims and deny that any such thing occurred...I should say..."oh look at all u ppl denying it over and over...it must mean it really happened"

That's some ridiculous logic u got there.

Did you go through my posts in the link I looked up? If you read it, you will understand.

And a surgical strike is simply a strike executed to eliminate a particular target without hitting collaterals. Ours were against the launch pads, neither the first time, nor the last time. Only difference is, the political ownership. That is all.

Please take the trouble to read my comments as posted in immediate time period as provided on links. Revert if you wish.

And ... ask around. Am not one of the fanboys or the anchor either, to have information which is cooked up. And my targeting is of PDF only.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Did you go through my posts in the link I looked up? If you read it, you will understand.

And a surgical strike is simply a strike executed to eliminate a particular target without hitting collaterals. Ours were against the launch pads, neither the first time, nor the last time. Only difference is, the political ownership. That is all.

Please take the trouble to read my comments as posted in immediate time period as provided on links. Revert if you wish.

And ... ask around. Am not one of the fanboys or the anchor either, to have information which is cooked up. And my targeting is of PDF only.

Going through the link u posted...on page 13 now. Is there any specific thing u want me to look for? U just said that 8 places were hit simultaneously. No casualties on Indian side...

These are all again...just claims. U can't expect me to believe u in absence of evidence. Is there some more convincing content in later pages...should I continue reading? Or will I find more of the same?

Update: on page 22 now...ur last post seems to be a few pages back again saying 8 sites were hit, 4 of which are confirmed by Pak as well...again without any proof whatsoever.
How does that even work? How do u expect anyone to believe u without any proof?

Ah, my friend. My 'title' - only if it were a means to enforce behaviour over here! Look around, what do you see?

It was an appeal to respect ur title(not an enforcement)...to either back up ur claims with proof or don't mock others for not believing u in absence of any proof.

Point was as he explained, stop making a write up a day if you deny it. Your vehement denials only serve to undermine the position you have taken

There's a saying in Urdu "jitnay moonh utni baatein"...everyone has the right to their opinion...so what if someone wrote an article about it. It's entirely ridiculous on the part of Indian government to make tall claims and then shy away from providing proof. If they weren't ready for providing proof(for whatever reason) then they shouldn't have made such public claims.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I did lay out the truth immediately on the thread .. have given the link for @Cookie Monster to go through sequentially on posts of 29 Sep 2016.

I know.

But before that written post, which was informed and current, we did have a slightly unstructured conversation.

The only person who has a better finger on the pulse, but who takes his time sharing information, is someone I thought you'd met, being in the same city, but apparently you haven't caught up with each other. Both of you have far more reliable access to information than I have any longer; all my 'cohort', even people almost a decade younger, have retired, and know as much or as little as any man in the street. OK, perhaps a tad more. You two are far more au fait.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

The government celebration is an outrage, and an insult to the members of the military and to all Indian citizens who don't wish their serving men and officers sacrifices to be made cheap political talking points to 'catch a vote', to use Jinnah's famous phrase.

The strike occurred. Let us not bandy words about it without knowledge of the events that transpired. Since then, there has been sufficient corroboration and evidence to put that beyond doubt. If it is an objection that what had happened earlier too was now being highlighted as a unique act of retaliation, that is valid; not the constant wail of denial.

To all Pakistani members: if you think it did not happen, that's fine; stop talking about it and picking at the scab on each and every occasion. The more publicity you give it, the more oxygen you give the poltroons and cowards who are taking political advantage of it, and the more ridiculous become the protests saying that it never happened.

You are incorrectly assuming that the publicizing of the strike is for the consumption of people in India. On the contrary it is being done to name and shame the Pakistani establishment in the eyes of Pakistani awam. When Pakistani establishment gets weakened, they can no longer take moral high ground and usurp the responsibilities of Pakistan's Parliament. This will strengthen political parties and democracy which will lead to settlement of all outstanding issues and peace in the subcontinent.

It is a shame that political parties in India have politicized this issue rather than standing behind the Indian armed forces.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You are incorrectly assuming that the publicizing of the strike is for the consumption of people in India. On the contrary it is being done to name and shame the Pakistani establishment in the eyes of Pakistani awam. When Pakistani establishment gets weakened, they can no longer take moral high ground and usurp the responsibilities of Pakistan's Parliament. This will strengthen political parties and democracy which will lead to settlement of all outstanding issues and peace in the subcontinent.

It is a shame that political parties in India have politicized this issue rather than standing behind the Indian armed forces.

I have no intention of discussing this topic beyond what I have already written and do not admire shills for the totally hollow men who are running the country today.

However, I will add that it was the Indian armed forces that stood behind the political establishment and allowed it to crow like a cock on a dung-heap about practices that both sides had adopted in the past, many times, perhaps not on this scale, but in the same mode.

 

[Joe Shearer]

He is alive!

I am also known as the Ghost Who Walks.

How are you?

 

[T-123456]

I am also known as the Ghost Who Walks.

How are you?

Good,and how are you,new chick,fell in love or what was the reason of your absence?