Sukmawati Sukarnoputri, daughter of former Indonesia president, converts to Hinduism from Islam

[El Sidd]

Malayalam is a South Indian language.

Name of the State where it is spoken, is Kerala.

I think Nigerian prince claimed it last week through an email sent to UN which had been put under spam folder by Indian IT experts.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

Light in here also should not be interpreted as light in physical means. He lights our Ruh and I believe all Believer understand what "light" in here means.

I dont know God essense, I only said it could be similar to our Ruh

Surah 38 Sad, Ayat 71-72
اِذۡ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلۡمَلٰٓـئِكَةِ اِنِّىۡ خَالِـقٌ ۢ بَشَرًا مِّنۡ طِيۡنٍ‏ ﴿38:71﴾ فَاِذَا سَوَّيۡتُهٗ وَنَفَخۡتُ فِيۡهِ مِنۡ رُّوۡحِىۡ فَقَعُوۡا لَهٗ سٰجِدِيۡنَ‏ ﴿38:72﴾

(38:71) When your Lord said to the angels:59 “Verily I am creating a human being from clay.60 (38:72) After I have created him and breathed into him of My spirit (Ruh-see Arabic),61 fall you down, prostrating yourselves to him.”62

There is difference between the two examples. Light upon Light analogy is Infinite. But, Ruh or the Spirit of Allah 'breathed' into humans has Finite connotation translating to human consciousness (in this life). Allah took the testimony or the Shahada from our Ruh before we were born [verse 7-172] to Judge us when the Ruh returns to Him. The Ruh will be paired to a body again on Judgement Day.

 

[Goritoes]

You ( and Wahhabi/Salafis) still think the words "above" and "high" used in the verse is something physical, I also have brought other Quran verses that I see you dont try to read

Remember Earth is round, it rotates, even sun is also rotating. What is above and what is below is relative.

I dont use physical term to understand the verse you brought here since I believe God is not physical either. God essence is more similar to Ruh and Ruh is not something that you can quantify using physical term

I will give more simpler example, if we somehow met prophet Muhammad, we will feel him somewhat higher than us, despite he is stepping the same Earth. Some people see Ruh attribut like Charisma and other


-----------------------------------------

I am not a fanatic Wahabis, believe what ever their Ulama and teaching told me. My Islam is more toward Wahhabi actually than Sufism

Our Limitations don't allow to understand what God is made off, God existence itself prove that he is made of something which we don't know, and how that matter (kinda) comes to being because he (God) himself from the beginning to end, by beginning we can't say how long and how far God goes back, cause it becomes irrelevant for any comprehended minded being. As for human Ruh, very little is known to us Muslims and even Prophet Muhammad PBUH was not given that privy to the knowledge of Ruh, its one of the two things Allah kept its secret close to himself alone, Ruh and Day of Judgement... only difference is that we know the signs that leads to judgment and it will occur, similar to that we know there is a Ruh in every breathing creature Allah created, he had us made the oath in our Ruh form, and maybe and its a big maybe Ruh is the connection we had with Allah, when Allah say that he is closer to use than our jugular vein, there is no other physical part which is closer to us than the vein, because mind and heart are within the boundaries of our Physical bodies, but Ruh did/can/will/do exists and survive outside the physical norms of our existences, when we sleep Allah took our souls (Ruh) and upon our waking up the Ruh return to our bodies with a fraction of a fraction of fraction of micro second. To me Ruh traveling through makes me believe that existence of multiple dimension Allah had created and those much more advance and faster worm holes through which these Ruh can travel from our bodies to their lord and back.

 

[jamahir]

There are many verses in the Holy Quran which does say that one can observe rise in calamities when the society drifts into sins ....

Every religious book has such moral statements but we must understand their context. The Quran may imply that a sin may be when Muslims become Capitalists. The Manusmiriti may say that a sin may be if a Lower Caste Hindu happens to even accidentally listen to the vedas. So the burden of sin should be put on women and not on the mullahs who rape the boys in their charge and brainwash people into fighting NATO's wars and subversion against progressive Muslim-majority societies ? So who is a sinner according to you ?

So why did an earthquake happen in Pakistani Kashmir some years ago ? Do you think the COVID outbreak across the world since the last two years is because of sin ? What if there is a war and countries use biological and nuclear weapons ? Let us not make excuses to start believing in superstitions.

 

[Indos]

Every religious book has such moral statements but we must understand their context. The Quran may imply that a sin may be when Muslims become Capitalists. The Manusmiriti may say that a sin may be if a Lower Caste happens to even accdidentally listen to the vedas. So the burden of sin should be put on women and not on the mullahs who rape the boys in their charge and brainwash people into fighting NATO's wars and subversion against progressive Muslim-majority societies ? So who is a sinner according to you ?

So why did an earthquake happen in Pakistani Kashmir some years ago ? Do you think the COVID outbreak across the world since the last two years is because of sin ? What if there is a war and countries use biological and nuclear weapons ? Let us not make excuses to start believing in superstitions.

Never in Quran stated Capitalist is a sin. Prophet Muhammad and his wife, Khadijah, are successful trader ( and can be defined as Capitalist as well).

The economy of Mecca is based on trade ( more base on Capitalism since the actors are private entrepreneur/ not state) as well, even until now

Quran allow trade and entrepreneurship

 

[jamahir]

Never in Quran stated Capitalist is a sin. Prophet Muhammad and his wife, Khadijah, are successful trader ( and can be defined as Capitalist as well).

The economy of Mecca is based on trade ( more base on Capitalism since the actors are private entrepreneur/ not state) as well, even until now

Quran allow trade and entrepreneurship

Indos brother, I know that Bibi Khadija was a businesswoman and when Islam came into being it allowed private enterprise. But by me saying that Quran prohibits Capitalism I meant that money should not become an obscene way to have a socio-economically imbalanced society and where like in Hinduism despite money being an artificial construct money should have a god and a goddess and where worship of money is embedded in the culture through daily rituals, festivals and language. I will quote an Indian Islamic scholar from more than 90 years ago who made this finding :

During the same period (1920s-30s), another (though lesser known) Islamic scholar in undivided India got smitten by the 1917 Russian revolution and Marxism.

Hafiz Rahman Sihwarwl saw Islam and Marxism sharing five elements in common: (1) prohibition of the accumulation of wealth in the hands of the privileged classes (2) organisation of the economic structure of the state to ensure social welfare (3) equality of opportunity for all human beings (4) priority of collective social interest over individual privilege and (5) prevention of the permanentising of class structure through social revolution.

The motivations for many of these themes he drew from the Qur’an, which he understood as seeking to create an economic order in which the rich pay excessive, though voluntary taxes (Zakat) to minimise differences in living standards.

In the areas that Sihwarwl saw Islam and communism diverge were Islam’s sanction of private ownership within certain limits, and in its refusal to recognise an absolutely classless basis of society.

He suggested that Islam, with its prohibition of the accumulation of wealth, is able to control the class structure through equality of opportunity.

Basically, both Sindhi and Sihwarwl had stumbled upon an Islamic concept of the social democratic welfare state.

The true essence of Islam is a mixture of private enterprise and what now is known as Communism. Pure Capitalism is something else. I live in India which has been the most Capitalist society for the last 3000 years and thus seen daily socio-economic wrongs and injustices. Islam cannot be equated to this. Don't you think so ?

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

Light in here also should not be interpreted as light in physical means. He lights our Ruh and I believe all Believer understand what "light" in here means.

I dont know God essense, I only said it could be similar to our Ruh

Surah 38 Sad, Ayat 71-72
اِذۡ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلۡمَلٰٓـئِكَةِ اِنِّىۡ خَالِـقٌ ۢ بَشَرًا مِّنۡ طِيۡنٍ‏ ﴿38:71﴾ فَاِذَا سَوَّيۡتُهٗ وَنَفَخۡتُ فِيۡهِ مِنۡ رُّوۡحِىۡ فَقَعُوۡا لَهٗ سٰجِدِيۡنَ‏ ﴿38:72﴾

(38:71) When your Lord said to the angels:59 “Verily I am creating a human being from clay.60 (38:72) After I have created him and breathed into him of My spirit (Ruh-see Arabic),61 fall you down, prostrating yourselves to him.”62

Verse 19-17 mentions Ruh from Allah sent as Angel to Maryam a.s. So, Ruh here is a consciousness with a sense of spirituality and obligation. It does not include freewill which is judged. This type of will is called Trust [verse 33-72] accepted by human ruh [and jinn].

 

[Indos]

There is difference between the two examples. Light upon Light analogy is Infinite. But, Ruh or the Spirit of Allah 'breathed' into humans has Finite connotation translating to human consciousness (in this life). Allah took the testimony or the Shahada from our Ruh before we were born [verse 7-172] to Judge us when the Ruh returns to Him. The Ruh will be paired to a body again on Judgement Day.

Verse 19-17 mentions Ruh from Allah sent as Angel to Maryam a.s. So, Ruh here is a consciousness with a sense of spirituality and obligation. It does not have to include freewill which is judged. This type of will is called Trust [verse 33-72] accepted by human ruh [and jinn].

Some thing can only be so close with Allah if that something has somewhat similar essence to Allah. This is actually just a logical thinking. So I think the verse saying Allah breath His Ruh to Adam should be translated as it is ( literal translation).

Any way can you please show me the verse 17-19 and verse 33-72 that you stated above as I am confused you dont show the name of the Surah ?

This notion that something within human is actually part of God is also told by other ancient religion like Hindu

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

Some thing can only be so close with Allah if that something has somewhat similar essence to Allah. This is actually just a logical thinking. So I think the verse saying Allah breath His Ruh to Adam should be translated as it is ( literal translation).

Any way can you please show me the verse 17-19 and verse 33-72 that you stated above as I am confused you dont show the name of the Surah ?

This notion that something within human is actually part of God is also told by other ancient religion like Hindu

19-17 And [Maryam] had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit [Angel Jibrael] and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.

Ruh is spirit with the capacity of moral consciousness. Ruh breathed into humans has the same meaning. Ruh does not include freewill because Angels do not have freewill. Before our birth, human ruh were offered special freewill which is judged [called Trust] and our ruh accepted it, while other creations feared the judgement. The freewill exists in this life and the ruh separates from it at death.

33-72 Indeed, we offered the Trust [freewill] to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, and they declined to bear it and feared it; but man [undertook to] bear it. Indeed, he was unjust and ignorant.

 

[I.R.A]

You can't comprehend what I worship and I don't worship any Name or form ..

Islam is basically more about submission rather focusing on worshipping. The ritual that us Muslims perform 5 times a day of standing, bowing, prostrating and sitting is basically to reinforce that we have submitted and our daily life conduct and affairs will conform with what is required by our submission.

Once you submit and accept, every act of yours is worshipping.

The submission needs to be absolute, no ifs not buts, no conditions no excuses, if not, then it is simply associating other deities with HIM (be them in physical form or otherwise).

"Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “He is Allah—One ˹and Indivisible˺;

Allah—the Sustainer ˹needed by all˺.

He has never had offspring, nor was He born.

And there is none comparable to Him."

And also,

"The most beautiful names belong to Allah: so call on him by them; but shun such men as use profanity in his names: for what they do, they will soon be requited."

I hope the difference between Islam and other ways should be apparent now. HE chose Islam the way of life for HIS best Creation. And not Islam as religion generally practiced and accepted, but Islam the Deen, and Islam has been there since the humans were created.

 

[Indos]

Interesting that it's legal to leave Islam and convert in Indonesia. A lot of Islamic countries have strict laws that forbid a muslim from doing so, Pakistan too if I'm not wrong ?

As you are Indian, I will bring example of Muslim women who married with Sikh with Indian roots (Indian Indonesian). She is Bunga Zainal, native Muslim, but as usual her family doesnt like it and have been many years tried to separate the couple, but that is the only thing they can do. So basically Indonesian are free to marry other people with different religion, but for Muslim she cannot get Islamic wedding as women is prohibited to marry any men that is not Muslim. She will marry with his husband religion wedding or go to neutral marriage where we call it as catatan sipil ( administered by government)

Bunga Zainal (native Muslim) and Indian Indonesian with Sikh root and religion.

-----------------------------------

Despite so, many occasion with mix married between Muslim and non Muslim, the kids tend to embrace Islam later when they are grown up

 

[Indos]

Some of the example Indonesian which is born with parents with different religion and then later become Muslim after so long following another religion.

Irfan Bachdim, Indonesia footballer, mixed of native Indonesian and Dutch, later become Muslim as he grown up

 

[-=virus=-]

As you are Indian, I will bring example of Muslim women who married with Sikh with Indian roots (Indian Indonesian). She is Bunga Zainal, native Muslim, but as usual her family doesnt like it and have been many years tried to separate the couple, but that is the only thing they can do. So basically Indonesian are free to marry other people with different religion, but for Muslim she cannot get Islamic wedding as women is prohibited to marry any men that is not Muslim. She will marry with his husband religion wedding or go to neutral marriage where we call it as catatan sipil ( administered by government)

Bunga Zainal (native Muslim) and Indian Indonesian with Sikh root and religion.

View attachment 791893
View attachment 791894

-----------------------------------

Despite so, many occasion with mix married between Muslim and non Muslim, the kids tend to embrace Islam later when they are grown up

interesting, he doesn't look very Sikh though...

 

[Indos]

interesting, he doesn't look very Sikh though...

There are Sikh community in Sumatra island that also dont look Sikh anymore

 

[not_two]

Islam is basically more about submission rather focusing on worshipping. The ritual that us Muslims perform 5 times a day of standing, bowing, prostrating and sitting is basically to reinforce that we have submitted and our daily life conduct and affairs will conform with what is required by our submission.

Once you submit and accept, every act of yours is worshipping.

The submission needs to be absolute, no ifs not buts, no conditions no excuses, if not, then it is simply associating other deities with HIM (be them in physical form or otherwise).

"Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “He is Allah—One ˹and Indivisible˺;

Allah—the Sustainer ˹needed by all˺.

He has never had offspring, nor was He born.

And there is none comparable to Him."

And also,

"The most beautiful names belong to Allah: so call on him by them; but shun such men as use profanity in his names: for what they do, they will soon be requited."

I hope the difference between Islam and other ways should be apparent now. HE chose Islam the way of life for HIS best Creation. And not Islam as religion generally practiced and accepted, but Islam the Deen, and Islam has been there since the humans were created.

I can understand your point of view..Religious individual always tries to put his way above all as it's only way he knows .I don't have any problem with it ..I have problem with God that after creation he is 24/7 behind his children and wants so much in return ..Human is better than his God atleast he creates and allows his inventions to work according to nature without expecting to worship him ..