Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions

[sancho]

I am just amazed at how you "hope" that Russians will actually sell A grade FGFA to India and even more amazed at your "hopes" that you can simply make up a shopping list, go out buy 5th generation avionics [US has a monopoly - No other EU country makes them right now -], come back integrate them in FGFA and then call it "Indian" and then how you "hope" that the FGFA will be more advanced than PAK-FA. So dream on...

First of all, there is not even a single reliable report that would suggest that we get another AESA radar, IRST, or downgraded engines as the Russians. It's even the otherway around, Russians had offered us to co-develop the NG AL 41, so when you "claim" we would get something different, isn't it on you to show any proof for it?
Secondly, you are highly mistaken about 5th gen systems, because especially Rafale already has them too. Be it Supercruise , passive detection and targeting, or advanced jamming capabilities, AESA techs for radar and EW systems, precise geolocation and so on.
Europe had made several stealth fighter tech project in the past too, which shows that they are technically more than capable to do it, but since Europe includes many single countries and the US gathered most of them into F35, there was never an interest, or a suitable budget available to develop a stealth fighter. Instead, they prefered to develop the most modern 4.5 gen fighters and intends to couple them with stealth UCAVs. Just look at how many stealth demonstrators were already developed and tested there and you will see how capable they are in techincally terms.
Not to mention that we have access to Israeli techs too, which even the US constantly ask for joint developments, be it HMS, LDPs, EW and missiles systems.

 

[arbit]

I am just amazed at how you "hope" that Russians will actually sell A grade FGFA to India and even more amazed at your "hopes" that you can simply make up a shopping list, go out buy 5th generation avionics [US has a monopoly - No other EU country makes them right now -], come back integrate them in FGFA and then call it "Indian" and then how you "hope" that the FGFA will be more advanced than PAK-FA. So dream on...

Sharing such tech is also a state policy, its not a localised issue wrt pak fa as you are making it out to be. Btw russians also helped in developing arihant's reactor. Pretty high tech you would agree. What are you stating here is merely your 'own hope'.
But you are so used to dreaming, whether its about acquiring lost territory, acquiring latest techs which are denied to you, that everything seems same to you. I, for one, am not surprised unlike other posters here.

 

[Arzamas 16]

Just answer my simple question :

If Russians have everything best of the class from onboard sensors to avionics on PAKFA then what was the need for FGFA ???

If mean after all we r paying half of the R&D cost then why would we go for something less if Russian got best everything(2nd only to the US)???

I m not undermining the Russian competence in aircraft manufacturing but only stating that there r some gadgets n electronics or even avionics where Israel or French perform slightly better than the Russians...
If u still don't agree than u can compare the original SU30 with MKI in terms of avionics n on board system n u'll get ur answer....

India needs FGFA because

1. Its requirements need a two seat jet and the PAK FA is a one seat

2. Its wants diversification as much as possible, so not to be reliant on one suppler.


Russia will surpass both France and isreal because,

France has major economic problems, and its already cutting its defense budget and R&D, well ours gets larger every year.

Isreal economy is just to small to compete with us in the long run, even with major US aid.




Russia is even developing a AESA radar for Ka-52 attack helicopter. Nether the Europe nor the Isreal have any comparable project.

 

[Contrarian]

I am just amazed at how you "hope" that Russians will actually sell A grade FGFA to India and even more amazed at your "hopes" that you can simply make up a shopping list, go out buy 5th generation avionics [US has a monopoly - No other EU country makes them right now -], come back integrate them in FGFA and then call it "Indian" and then how you "hope" that the FGFA will be more advanced than PAK-FA. So dream on...

It is not a hope mate. We deal with different terms with the Russians. The project would not have gone ahead had it not been for Indian funding. The Russians had refused funding from China on precisely the same terms. You would be aware that the Chinese had offered to be part of this program only so that the experience and technology they gain could be used on their own programs.

The development costs and not purchase costs are split. While it happens in nearly all cases that grade A technology is never given out, there has been a consistent exception to that rule - India with respect to Russia in many cases-however not all cases.

Our own technology has evolved in many cases that goes beyond the best Russia has to offer - an example being the MC of the Su-30MKI. To the extent that in foreign sales of Su-30, it is our MC being sold, not the Russian one which is also on offer.

 

[Yogi]

India needs FGFA because

1. Its requirements need a two seat jet and the PAK FA is a one seat

2. Its wants diversification as much as possible, so not to be reliant on one suppler.


Russia will surpass both France and isreal because,

France has major economic problems, and its already cutting its defense budget and R&D, well ours gets larger every year.

Isreal economy is just to small to compete with us in the long run, even with major US aid.




Russia is even developing a AESA radar for Ka-52 attack helicopter. Nether the Europe nor the Isreal have any comparable project.

Thats old news mate

1. IAF has droped 2 seater plan now IAF will induct only 144 single seater FGFA only....
Now FGFA has more of become synonymous to MKI...

2.Diversification is not the correct word here although India is diversifying its suppliers but PAK-FA is a Russian product...
There is a very limited scope for diversifying suppliers for a Russian fighter as Russia already manufactures all components by itself from cockpit to jet engines....

So the question is not about diversification but rather upgrading some gadgets or parts which r either more advanced or better suited for our needs...

Besides we being a partner in project will be having our own production lines to be able to manufacture the jet from scrach to meet our demands as well as for future exports although we might remain dependent on Russian support for important components for engines,etc.

3. I my not denying that Russia can not takeover France n Israel in defense industry. I was just saying that currently France n Israel have a edge over Russia in some fields thats all...

N Israel's industry may not be significant in size but they do have access to a lot of American tech n there own industry n R&D research are also heavily funded by the US so yes they do have some edge in certain fields...

 

[Arzamas 16]

Thats old news mate

1. IAF has droped 2 seater plan now IAF will induct only 144 single seater FGFA only....
Now FGFA has more of become synonymous to MKI...

2.Diversification is not the correct word here although India is diversifying its suppliers but PAK-FA is a Russian product...
There is a very limited scope for diversifying suppliers for a Russian fighter as Russia already manufactures all components by itself from cockpit to jet engines....

So the question is not about diversification but rather upgrading some gadgets or parts which r either more advanced or better suited for our needs...

Besides we being a partner in project will be having our own production lines to be able to manufacture the jet from scrach to meet our demands as well as for future exports although we might remain dependent on Russian support for important components for engines,etc.

3. I my not denying that Russia can not takeover France n Israel in defense industry. I was just saying that currently France n Israel have a edge over Russia in some fields thats all...

N Israel's industry may not be significant in size but they do have access to a lot of American tech n there own industry n R&D research are also heavily funded by the US so yes they do have some edge in certain fields...

Manufacturing FGFA in India is a unlikely prospect for least another 10 years, the First FGFA prototype will come out in 2017, at the earliest well after PAK FA is already done and in Russian air force, and after the First prototype flys expect another 3 years of testing( most of it likely done in Russia).

and all this is assuming their are no Delays.

 

[sancho]

 

[Gessler]

^^PAKFA can take off from very short and unprepared runways Ive heard.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

Whats the purpose of stripes on nose cone ?

 

[selvan33]

No quite since we paid for the R&D we are partners. The FGFA will be basically the same thing except some equipment that might come from France and Israel.

i accept we are the partner right now. but before our commitment they completed their whole designing process and they started to give an orders for that. And also you have to know one thing that our air force cancelled the twin seat version which is highly modified and designed by HAL according to IAF requirements. so we going to have only upgraded pak fa(single seaters named as FGFA)with slight modifications as per our IAF requirements.

 

[Gessler]

Whats the purpose of stripes on nose cone ?

I think the stripes are present only on those PAKFAs which are carrying the new AESA radar

 

[sancho]

i accept we are the partner right now. but before our commitment they completed their whole designing process and they started to give an orders for that. And also you have to know one thing that our air force cancelled the twin seat version which is highly modified and designed by HAL according to IAF requirements. so we going to have only upgraded pak fa(single seaters named as FGFA)with slight modifications as per our IAF requirements.

FGFA:

- 50% owned by India
- export share
- no downgraded techs
- no restrictions
- source codes
- ToT
- production in India


Russian part:

- airframe design
- AESA radar
- Engine (possibly jointly developed)
- IRST


Indian part:

- materials
- coatings
- cockpit design
- Indian and foreign avionics and weapons


As explained earlier, it's the next step ahead in Indo-Russian relations from the MKI deal.

 

[Arzamas 16]

FGFA:

- 50% owned by India
- export share
- no downgraded techs
- no restrictions
- source codes
- ToT
- production in India


Russian part:

- airframe design
- AESA radar
- Engine (possibly jointly developed)
- IRST


Indian part:

- materials
- coatings
- cockpit design
- Indian and foreign avionics and weapons


As explained earlier, it's the next step ahead in Indo-Russian relations from the MKI deal.

Everything you said is true, except that, FGFA will be using Type 30 engine begin developed for production PAK FA right now.

 

[sancho]

Everything you said is true, except that, FGFA will be using Type 30 engine begin developed for production PAK FA right now.

23/09/2011

India has chosen engines for fighter FGFA

The Air Force has selected engines for India's promising fighter FGFA, produced jointly with the Russian design bureau "Dry" based on the T-50 (PAK FA) . What kind of power plants is in question did not specify. We know only that the selected engines will be more powerful than the AL-41F1 ("Item 117"), which will be installed on the Russian T-50 in the first stage...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-chosen-engines-fighter-fgfa.html#post2128476

November 16, 2012

Testing of new engine for PAK-FA by 2014

“Engine will be ready in two years, and will begin bench testing. This – essentially a new engine, so it took a long time” – said Marchuk. According to him, the weight of the new power plant will be 30 percent less than that of the AL-41F1 (“Item 117″, the modified version of the engine AL-41F1S for the Su-35), known as the engine of the first stage...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-updates-news-discussions-65.html#post3607955


So:

AL-41F1S ("Item 117S or C" / 86kN dry, 142kN AB ) - Su 35S + available for Su 30 upgrades
AL-41F1 (“Item 117/ 86kN dry, 147kN″ / 86kN dry, 147kN AB) - T50 + early Pak Fa
AL-41 ("Type 30" / 107kN dry, 176kN AB) - FGFA + later Pak Fa

 

[Arzamas 16]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-chosen-engines-fighter-fgfa.html#post2128476




http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-updates-news-discussions-65.html#post3607955


So:

AL-41F1S ("Item 117S or C" / 86kN dry, 142kN AB ) - Su 35S + available for Su 30 upgrades
AL-41F1 (“Item 117/ 86kN dry, 147kN″ / 86kN dry, 147kN AB) - T50 + early Pak Fa
AL-41 ("Type 30" / 107kN dry, 176kN AB) - FGFA + later Pak Fa

That's the same thing I said, that FGFA will powered by Type 30, and the lasted news is that Type 30 will be ready for the first production PAK FA and another their is really nothing joint about Type 30.