Suicide bombing near US base in Afghanistan.

[gambit]

What you are suggesting is very expensive and has little to no return. War is hardwork. If the soldiers are getting paid, the people paying for it want to get paid as well. Exporting governance is the wrong term. Installing governments is big business.

Certainly is less expensive than what we are trying to accomplish in Afghanistan today. In principle, I see no problems with competing sociological systems as they all in many ways subtly exporting their systems through inter-states relations. In practice, I believe that the 'nation building' venture in Iraq is more worthwhile than for Afghanistan. For both, if we enter and install centralized governments, what else can do but install what we know best but our model? But the reason why the 'nation building' experiment fares much better in Iraq than in Afghanistan is because the Iraqis -- as a nation -- progressed much further than the Afghanis as far as creating long term institutions of government. The Iraqis will reject some ideas and methods but they will also incorporate some ideas and methods into the model they want to live under. The Taliban savages will just simply reject everything. Afghanistan is a lost cause, all the hyperboles about it being 'graveyard of empires' notwithstanding. We should sustain our relationship with Iraq but leave Afghanistan and leave with plenty of warnings on the consequences of trying to mess with US again.

 

[Mosamania]

Certainly is less expensive than what we are trying to accomplish in Afghanistan today. In principle, I see no problems with competing sociological systems as they all in many ways subtly exporting their systems through inter-states relations. In practice, I believe that the 'nation building' venture in Iraq is more worthwhile than for Afghanistan. For both, if we enter and install centralized governments, what else can do but install what we know best but our model? But the reason why the 'nation building' experiment fares much better in Iraq than in Afghanistan is because the Iraqis -- as a nation -- progressed much further than the Afghanis as far as creating long term institutions of government. The Iraqis will reject some ideas and methods but they will also incorporate some ideas and methods into the model they want to live under. The Taliban savages will just simply reject everything. Afghanistan is a lost cause, all the hyperboles about it being 'graveyard of empires' notwithstanding. We should sustain our relationship with Iraq but leave Afghanistan and leave with plenty of warnings on the consequences of trying to mess with US again.

Leaving Afghanistan now is the cruelest thing the US can do to Afghanistan right now. You made a mess....clean it up.

 

[gambit]

Leaving Afghanistan now is the cruelest thing the US can do to Afghanistan right now. You made a mess....clean it up.

Please, Afghanistan is no more of a 'mess' today than the country has ever been. Afghanistan have always been a 'failed state'. We experimented and we failed. I have neither problems nor shame in that.

 

[Drawn_Sword_of_God]

Ever notice how it is these nasty old men who "recruit" younger men (and women) to "martyr" themselves?

"It's OK, the moment this bomb rips you to a pink mist, you will be in Paradise." Better him than me.

If these old men are so convinced of this, they'd strap bombs on themselves. Hmm, I wonder why they don't do this?

why doesnt obama go to afghanistan himself and fight the taliban instead of sending young americans who wont return back home?
well the thing is that these old nasty men know there is paradise for doing such a thing and they are cowards.

 

[Vassnti]

Suicide bomber killed by IED just a clasic.

 

[Chogy]

What you do is kill their ideology. Make terrorism not appealing to them, give them a better life instead of giving them a life in which they will ask for death.

Very interesting, and I understand and appreciate what you are saying. Hardly anybody believes this, but this...

Make terrorism not appealing to them, give them a better life

is exactly what we have been trying to do. The better life comes from eliminating the insanity that is Taliban governance, and assisting economically. Teaching and training in areas like agriculture, civil engineering, hospitals, schools, factories. That is what large teams of U.S. personnel and billions of $$ are trying to accomplish.

My daughter was part of that, but was totally discouraged by both extreme corruption, and also a "just don't care" attitude that so many Afghanis seemed to have. For example, they'd deliver a huge load of medical supplies to a rural clinic, and within a week, they'd see 80% of the supplies being openly sold in the local bazaar. For them, it was maddening.

You saw success in the KSA because they were your people, your citizens. We, on the other hand, are seen as "brutal invaders." A portion of the forces there are obviously military; offensive and defensive operations. Another part is the infrastructure-building people, but these are being regularly attacked.

Given that money and goods in Afghanistan is doing nothing for the people there, it's time to leave. The Taliban WILL return. They will beat men without beards, people listening to music, whip women who show skin, and gas girls' schools. It's tragic, but we cannot fix it. So long as they keep their violence inside Afghanistan, we'd best not be there.

But if they form terrorist camps and begin again to export their ideology, all bets are off.

What I don't understand is why so many Pakistanis are rooting for U.S. failure. The Taliban won't stay put in Afghanistan... they seek to export their ideology to Pakistan as well.

 

[lem34]

I certainly don't have the answer. I can tell you what I would have done if I were supreme General... I would have responded to 9-11 with overwhelming force and violence. Obliterated training camps, killed as many al Quaeda and terrorists as possible, then I would have ordered all my forces home. Six months to a year max. It'd be 100% punitive. I would then leave behind posters and billboards that say "If you export violence again, we will be back and we'll do this all over... again."

I don't believe in exporting social systems. Maybe it's callous and cruel, but if the Taliban and al Quaeda want to install their style of governance, it's nobody's business beyond the Afghani citizens themselves.

Wow chogy you are in danger of saying what we want to hear

 

[fd24]

Wow chogy you are in danger of saying what we want to hear

I think he has seen the light!!

 

[Rafi]

Very interesting, and I understand and appreciate what you are saying. Hardly anybody believes this, but this...

Make terrorism not appealing to them, give them a better life

is exactly what we have been trying to do. The better life comes from eliminating the insanity that is Taliban governance, and assisting economically. Teaching and training in areas like agriculture, civil engineering, hospitals, schools, factories. That is what large teams of U.S. personnel and billions of $$ are trying to accomplish.

My daughter was part of that, but was totally discouraged by both extreme corruption, and also a "just don't care" attitude that so many Afghanis seemed to have. For example, they'd deliver a huge load of medical supplies to a rural clinic, and within a week, they'd see 80% of the supplies being openly sold in the local bazaar. For them, it was maddening.

You saw success in the KSA because they were your people, your citizens. We, on the other hand, are seen as "brutal invaders." A portion of the forces there are obviously military; offensive and defensive operations. Another part is the infrastructure-building people, but these are being regularly attacked.

Given that money and goods in Afghanistan is doing nothing for the people there, it's time to leave. The Taliban WILL return. They will beat men without beards, people listening to music, whip women who show skin, and gas girls' schools. It's tragic, but we cannot fix it. So long as they keep their violence inside Afghanistan, we'd best not be there.

But if they form terrorist camps and begin again to export their ideology, all bets are off.

What I don't understand is why so many Pakistanis are rooting for U.S. failure. The Taliban won't stay put in Afghanistan... they seek to export their ideology to Pakistan as well.

Believe me most Pakistanis cannot stand the talib's and their messed up ideology - but it is because the US is turning a blind eye to indian interference in our back yard that is causing the hostility. Imagine China getting involved in Cuba or Mexico with military and then sponsoring for argument's sake, "the Texas Liberation Army". That is why Pakistani's are wary of ISAF.

 

[fd24]

Believe me most Pakistanis cannot stand the talib's and their messed up ideology - but it is because the US is turning a blind eye to indian interference in our back yard that is causing the hostility. Imagine China getting involved in Cuba or Mexico with military and then sponsoring for argument's sake, "the Texas Liberation Army". That is why Pakistani's are wary of ISAF.

Well said brother

 

[Chogy]

Wow chogy you are in danger of saying what we want to hear

What do you want to hear?

I am a ex-military man. The military has one function... to destroy. Not to build.

I have disagreed with how we have conducted the Afghan campaign since 1992... the mission was to eliminate a threat to the U.S., not to stuff oats into a dead mule. I have stated this openly on many forums, dozens of times. It is not our job to export sociological systems.

Call me callous and cruel... let them abuse each other all they want. Just don't export it. They did in the 1990's, culminating with 9-11, and we responded.

Unfortunately, the Taliban are eyeing Pakistan next.

Believe me most Pakistanis cannot stand the talib's and their messed up ideology - but it is because the US is turning a blind eye to indian interference in our back yard that is causing the hostility. Imagine China getting involved in Cuba or Mexico with military and then sponsoring for argument's sake, "the Texas Liberation Army". That is why Pakistani's are wary of ISAF.

Let me be sure I understand your statement... "Pakistan is angry at the U.S. because we are ignoring, or not doing enough, about percieved Indian actions vs. Pakistan." Is that about it? I thought everyone wanted the U.S. to stay home and not get involved. Is that not the case?

Do you want us to declare war on India? Bomb 'em? What do you want?

 

[lem34]

What do you want to hear?

I am a ex-military man. The military has one function... to destroy. Not to build.

I have disagreed with how we have conducted the Afghan campaign since 1992... the mission was to eliminate a threat to the U.S., not to stuff oats into a dead mule. I have stated this openly on many forums, dozens of times. It is not our job to export sociological systems.

Call me callous and cruel... let them abuse each other all they want. Just don't export it. They did in the 1990's, culminating with 9-11, and we responded.

Unfortunately, the Taliban are eyeing Pakistan next.



Let me be sure I understand your statement... "Pakistan is angry at the U.S. because we are ignoring, or not doing enough, about percieved Indian actions vs. Pakistan." Is that about it? I thought everyone wanted the U.S. to stay home and not get involved. Is that not the case?

Do you want us to declare war on India? Bomb 'em? What do you want?

chogy when the twin towers were destroyed my heart went out to the american people at that evil act. If i could have done anything at all I would. I have no problems with americans at all. However the disproportionate response of the american govt over the last 10 years is simply unacceptable in civilsed houses. So i accept what you were saying that you should attack anyone that carries out attrocities like the one in new york (btw i had been to twin towers and lost freinds there). But it is not sufficient just to go out and kill perpratators of these acts. We need to wipe out the fertaliser the ripe ground that produces these terrorists and you do that not by drone strikes which i think btw creates more terrorists but winning hearts and minds and removing injustices in the world rather than creating them

 

[AkhandIndia]

@chogy,

pakistanis says.

1)Usa supports liberation of baluchistan with india.
2)Under U.S influence,india opened consulates which trained terrorist .
3)Providing ammunition to terrorist.
4)Support to Northern alliance by india.
5)U.S help in kashmir issue.
6)U.S providing weapons to india and shift of friendly stance from pakistan to india.

they want india out from a-stan and they hope usa to do this job.

list is long but these are the major points

 

[lem34]

@chogy,

pakistanis says.

1)Usa supports liberation of baluchistan with india.
2)Under U.S influence,india opened consulates which trained terrorist .
3)Providing ammunition to terrorist.
4)Support to Northern alliance by india.
5)U.S help in kashmir issue.
6)U.S providing weapons to india and shift of friendly stance from pakistan to india.

they want india out from a-stan and they hope usa to do this job.

list is long but these are the major points

No no we managed comfortably to keep you out of afghanistan before americans came and will do agin when americans are gone

 

[Rafi]

What do you want to hear?

I am a ex-military man. The military has one function... to destroy. Not to build.

I have disagreed with how we have conducted the Afghan campaign since 1992... the mission was to eliminate a threat to the U.S., not to stuff oats into a dead mule. I have stated this openly on many forums, dozens of times. It is not our job to export sociological systems.

Call me callous and cruel... let them abuse each other all they want. Just don't export it. They did in the 1990's, culminating with 9-11, and we responded.

Unfortunately, the Taliban are eyeing Pakistan next.



Let me be sure I understand your statement... "Pakistan is angry at the U.S. because we are ignoring, or not doing enough, about percieved Indian actions vs. Pakistan." Is that about it? I thought everyone wanted the U.S. to stay home and not get involved. Is that not the case?

Do you want us to declare war on India? Bomb 'em? What do you want?

Bomb 'em? Yes please. <Just kidding> Well we requested numerous times to the US to keep the nefarious indian influence in Afghan to a minimum and that our rightful concerns as the regional power to be addressed. The US was very good for about 2 years - after that - our concerns regarding india were not addressed - the head of the BLA terrorists was hosted under Karzai's very considerable nose.

Ideally I think the US - should concentrate on Nation Building at home, and I say this as someone who respects American ingenuity and enterprise - and counts many American's as dear friends.

IMHO the US messed up - they should have gone for a more loose federation, as most of the Afghan sub-nationalities can't stand one another.