Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[Storm Force]

JF17 versis SU30MKI 50/50 CHANCE.

next you people will say F7 just needs a new radar to match mki

 

[hj786]

JF17 versis SU30MKI 50/50 CHANCE.

next you people will say F7 just needs a new radar to match mki

Next you will say F-22 needs a new radar to match mki.

 

[hj786]

And Just to point out before the JF-17 can engae the MKI on even ground, it has to be a better jet that the J-10B.

You don't know a single thing about J-10B except what it looks like, so your claim proves you're typing trash.

Its about time you face reality and admit the only reason you are even buying this plane is because it the only one you can afford.

If that helps you sleep better, keep believing that. The reality is that you can't accept the mki is still just an upgraded flanker and the JF-17 was developed to be capable of defeating it.

The JF-17 has tactical data-links to interface with other platforms such as AWACS aircraft, so it would always be aware of an opposing aircraft's position. The radar warning receiver systems would also help here. It has BVR AAMs and a radar with around 100 km range against even fairly small targets - which the mki isn't. For close range combat it will have 5th generation short range missiles with TVC and infra-red imaging seekers, capable of manoeuvring at around 50g, which the mki can't. These missiles will be slaved to a helmet-mounted sights/display system, and the mki is not invisible so JF-17 pilots can see it and designate it for their missiles. It has a missile approach warning system which is integrated with not only UV/IR sensors giving 360 degree coverage, but also the radar warning receiver and electronic warfare systems (radar jammer housed in the rectangular fairing at the tip of the vertical tail fin). The mki's missiles are also not invisible to UV/IR sensors, unless they don't have rocket motors. According to a Chinese article, the onboard radar jammer is capable of focusing all its jamming power in any direction. There are sources for all of this.

How about you quit trolling and face reality yourself?

 

[raveolution]

You don't know a single thing about J-10B except what it looks like, so your claim proves you're just typing trash.

Agree with you that not a single thing is known regarding the J10B.

However everyone in this forum comments how the J10B will be better than the F16 or the MKI or the MRCA, etc. Why so? The existence of J10B today is also not confirmed, though there is news that China is in the final stages of developing an upgraded version of the J10. Why does everyone talk like the FC20 will be inducted tomorrow and will be a frontline aircraft? At best the aircraft will be seen around 2014-15. Also PAF wants to integrate western avionics and radar on the J10B for which no concrete steps or orders have been placed as yet, it may delay the programme further.

Hope the PAF will get these aircraft as soon as possible, since they really need a frontline fighter apart from the F16's. Hope you agree with me.

Cheers

 

[beckham]

My standard post for JF-17 vs Su-30MKI comparison !


JF-17 Thunder

Crew: 1

Unit cost: US$ 15 million (estimated)★

Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg

Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan

Maximum Speed : Mach 1.8

Radar: Italian Grifo S-7 ?

Range: 3,000 km

Thrust/weight: 0.99

Rate of climb: 175 m/s ?

Service ceiling: 16,700 m

G-limit: +8.5 g

hardpoints: 7 hardpoints being increased to 9 !





UNIQUE FEATURES

+Ra'ad ALCM is planned to be integrated with and launched from JF-17.

+The EW suite is also linked to a missile approach warning (MAW) system to help it defend against radar-guided missiles.

+NRIET KLJ-7 radar's multiple modes allow surveillance and simultaneous engagement of multiple air, ground and sea targets, of which a total of 40 can be managed. Using the track-while-scan (TWS) mode, the radar can track up to 10 targets at beyond visual range (BVR) and engage 2 of them simultaneously with radar homing air-to-air missiles. The operation range for targets with a radar cross-section (RCS) of 5 m2 is stated to be ≥105 km in look-up mode and ≥85 km in look-down mode.

Latest developments

Remaining production aircraft may also be equipped with European avionics, radars and weaponry. Pakistan had begun negotiations with British and Italian defence firms over potential avionics and radars for JF-17 during initial development. Some of the radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7 and the French Thomson-CSF RC400 (a variant of the RDY-2), along with the MBDA MICA IR/RF short/medium range air-to-air missiles. The Vixen 500E AESA radar has also been offered to the PAF for installation on the JF-17 by the British company SELEX, but the PAF may be looking for a more advanced AESA radar


Sukhoi Su-30MKI

Crew: 2★

Unit cost: US $40 million

Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg (85,600 lb) ★

Powerplant: 2× Lyulka AL-31FP turbofans with thrust vectoring, 131 kN (29,449 lbf) each ★

Maximum speed: Mach 2.35★

Radar: N011M Bars (Panther) (PESA)★

Range: 5,000 km and 8,000 km at a cruise height of 11 to 13 km with air refueling system.★

Thrust/weight: 1.07 (at loaded weight & 1.15 with 50% fuel) ★

Rate of climb: > 355 m/s ★

Service ceiling: 17,300 m★

G-limit: 9+g / 9.5 g★

hardpoints: Su 30 MKI has 12 hardpoints.which can be increased to 14 by using multi-payload racks. ★



UNIQUE FEATURES

+ canard increases the aircraft lifting ability and allow high angle-of-attack (AoA)

+ avionics sourced from Russia, France, Israel and India

+ N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range The radar can track 15 air targets and engage four simultaneously. These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters. The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least four other aircraft. The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40–50 km.

+ radar range of 60 km in the rear hemisphere

+ A modified Su-30MKI is being used to carry BrahMos cruise missiles with range 300 km.

+ Novator K-100 (Range-possibly 300–400 km )missile was designed to shoot down AWACS and other C4ISTAR aircraft whilst keeping the launch platform out of range of any fighters that might be protecting the target.

+N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system.

+Su-30MKI aerodynamic configuration is an unstable longitudinal triplane. The canard increases the aircraft lifting ability and deflects automatically to allow high angle-of-attack (AoA) flights allowing it to perform Pugachev's Cobra. The integral aerodynamic configuration combined with thrust vectoring results in extremely capable maneuverability, taking off and landing characteristics. This high agility allows rapid deployment of weapons in any direction as desired by the crew. The canard notably assists in controlling the aircraft at large angles-of-attack and bringing it to a level flight condition.

Latest developments

UAC together with HAL has been developing fifth generation fighter features such as internal weapons carriage and radar absorbent material for IAF Su-30MKIs by modifying their airframes to make them stealthy, converting the existing ‘Bars’ into an Active Phased Array Radar, enhancing the situational awareness by incorporating active electronically scanned transmit/receive arrays on the aircraft’s wings and pumping up the defensive-aids suite by installing a combined radar/laser warning system and a missile approach warning system.

- please correct me if I am wrong with Specifications

Have your say ...

 

[hj786]

Agree with you that not a single thing is known regarding the J10B.

Thank you.

However everyone in this forum comments how the J10B will be better than the F16 or the MKI or the MRCA, etc. Why so? The existence of J10B today is also not confirmed, though there is news that China is in the final stages of developing an upgraded version of the J10. Why does everyone talk like the FC20 will be inducted tomorrow and will be a frontline aircraft? At best the aircraft will be seen around 2014-15. Also PAF wants to integrate western avionics and radar on the J10B for which no concrete steps or orders have been placed as yet, it may delay the programme further.

Hope the PAF will get these aircraft as soon as possible, since they really need a frontline fighter apart from the F16's. Hope you agree with me.

Actually you're wrong on several points. The senior members don't say anything of the sort. The existence of J-10B is confirmed (just one of many sources: New J-10 variant sighted). Nobody is talking like that at all. The PAF did want to integrate Western avionics and radar, but the Chinese have insisted they can meet the PAF's requirements (as they did with the JF-17's radar and avionics) and the PAF have decided to give them a chance to do so. Why are you talking like you know that no steps have been taken? How can you possibly know that?

I agree that the F-16 cannot be relied upon by the PAF. It is more than capable enough but the source is not trustworthy enough.

Beckham, you missed the following from the JF-17 part:
- 7 hardpoints being increased to 9
- In-flight refuelling probe
- Uprated engines expected (a report posted here recently said the contract for an upgraded RD-93 with 9100 kgf thrust was signed recently by China.)
- Airframe weight reduction through greater use of composite materials
- Radar signature reduction through minor airframe modifications expected
If you were going to copy the Wikipedia article, why didn't you copy the "Avionics" section which talks about the HMS/D, IRST, data-link, etc.?

 

[beckham]

You don't know a single thing about J-10B except what it looks like, so your claim proves you're typing trash.


If that helps you sleep better, keep believing that. The reality is that you can't accept the mki is still just an upgraded flanker and the JF-17 was developed to be capable of defeating it.

The JF-17 has tactical data-links to interface with other platforms such as AWACS aircraft, so it would always be aware of an opposing aircraft's position. The radar warning receiver systems would also help here. It has BVR AAMs and a radar with around 100 km range against even fairly small targets - which the mki isn't. For close range combat it will have 5th generation short range missiles with TVC and infra-red imaging seekers, capable of manoeuvring at around 50g, which the mki can't. These missiles will be slaved to a helmet-mounted sights/display system, and the mki is not invisible so JF-17 pilots can see it and designate it for their missiles. It has a missile approach warning system which is integrated with not only UV/IR sensors giving 360 degree coverage, but also the radar warning receiver and electronic warfare systems (radar jammer housed in the rectangular fairing at the tip of the vertical tail fin). The mki's missiles are also not invisible to UV/IR sensors, unless they don't have rocket motors. According to a Chinese article, the onboard radar jammer is capable of focusing all its jamming power in any direction. There are sources for all of this.

How about you quit trolling and face reality yourself?

Seriously dude...u need to update yourself on MKI ! Ignorance is bliss !

 

[emotionless_teenage]

can someone provide a data about JF-17 cost per flight(and if possible a source too)

thanks in advance

 

[beckham]

Beckham, you missed the following from the JF-17 part:

- 7 hardpoints being increased to 9

Su 30 MKI has 12 hardpoints.which can be increased to 14 by using multi-payload racks.

- In-flight refuelling probe

check !

- Uprated engines expected (a report posted here recently said the contract for an upgraded RD-93 with 9100 kgf thrust was signed recently by China.)

Tell me when its ready ! btw I would like to see that report !

- Airframe weight reduction through greater use of composite materials

Every aircraft use composite materials for weight reduction, not much of an advantage !

- Radar signature reduction through minor airframe modifications expected

MKI is also expecting one !

If you were going to copy the Wikipedia article, why didn't you copy the "Avionics" section which talks about the HMS/D, IRST, data-link, etc.?

Because it was not worth mentioning ! Even IAF mig-21 bison have those ! btw, everything I posted was not from wiki, expect minor specifications !

Upgrades specifications of IAF MiG-21 Bison

*Super Kopyo X-band pulse Doppler radar.

*R-27AE AA-10 Alamo-E Active radar homing version. Range 1 km to 130 km. Weight 349 kg.

*AA-11 "Archer",

*integrated BVR attack capability with R-77 BVRAAMs and PGMs

* composites,nosecone, canopy, single-piece windshield and new canopy made of stressed acrylic .

*conformal countermeasure dispensers.

*New sophisticated EW suite comprises of a DRDO Tarang RWR/RHAWS, "Tempest" internal Self-protection jammer (SPJ) and the conformal CMDS.

*Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS receivers

*El-Op HUD.

*infrared search and track system (IRST) from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant.

*Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays.

*autopilot, radar warning receivers (RWR), digital flight data recorder,

*HOTAS controls,

*new HF/VHF/UHF radios,

*new electric power supply system,

*A modified version of this RWR will be used aboard the Su-30MKI.

*SURA helmet mounted sight, used by Flanker pilots,

:Mod Edit:

 

[beckham]

^^ Please don't get the impression that I am comparing JF-17 to MIG-21 !

 

[Guest]

in an air combat, tactics and quantity are more important then quantity, if both of them could be categorise in the same generation. because a BVR missiles' hit rate is much more below what it is advertised. take R77 for example, the odds of JF-17 to dodge a R77 is about 66%, the odds of MKI would be higher of course, in air combat configuration( 50% fuel, 2*BVR,4*WVR). but the missile could acquire the target if JF-17 is being illuminated by the enemy again. so if it is an one on one scenario, MKI would easily got the upper hand because it can complete the dodging faster and then guide the missile to its target again. however, if this is a 1v2 scenario, things change dreamatically. a basic tactic would be to fly the second JF out of the MKI's reach to keep illuminating the MKI.

and if the number is 16 vs 32, there would be more options. such as 16 JF to engage the enemy, 4 to illuminate , and 8 to charge from hi-altitude into the MKI formation to fight a close combat.

so, nothing is certain. JF won't be sitting ducks because its inferior in quality.

 

[raveolution]

Thank you.


Actually you're wrong on several points. The senior members don't say anything of the sort. The existence of J-10B is confirmed (just one of many sources: New J-10 variant sighted). Nobody is talking like that at all. The PAF did want to integrate Western avionics and radar, but the Chinese have insisted they can meet the PAF's requirements (as they did with the JF-17's radar and avionics) and the PAF have decided to give them a chance to do so. Why are you talking like you know that no steps have been taken? How can you possibly know that?

So lets discuss this when the J10B is ready for delivery with all final specifications decided whether Chinese, Western or whatever. And lets talk about JF17 when the first squadron is inducted and the aircraft gets FOC. Also JF17 radar and avionics is far below what is desired by the PAF, hence Block 2,3 which have been planned. Until 2012, PAF will only have stripped down versions (Blk1).

Please feel free to disagree. I think we cannot compare aircraft which have been around for years, seen combat experience and which are already in operation in the IAF with aircraft which are still in development/ recently developed. However that does not mean that it cannot be a capable platform in years to come, which the PAF have indicated and which should be done asap since both qualitative and quantitative advantage lies with the IAF currently, which was not so historically.

 

[IceCold]

Seriously dude...u need to update yourself on MKI ! Ignorance is bliss !

And you need to update yourself on JF-17 because the radar on JF-17 is not KLJ-7.

 

[beckham]

And you need to update yourself on JF-17 because the radar on JF-17 is not KLJ-7.

Thanks IceCold ! Thats why I left a question mark there !

Btw, which one is the actual radar ?

 

[IceCold]

Thanks IceCold ! Thats why I left a question mark there !

Btw, which one is the actual radar ?

Radar on JF-17 is not known but members who have the first hand knowledge about the development of JF-17, members like Sir Murad have stated that the radar on JF-17 is not Chinese and certainly not KLJ-7