Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[MZUBAIR]

In Reply to MZUBAiR.

Your facts are incorrect.

SU30MKI equips 5 SQUADRONS already nos are 100+ check both Wipikedi and any other source you like.

Nobody believes on wikipei.
Few weeks ago When one MKI crashed down, I read on paper and also heared news that India grounded all its 60 MKI's right after the incident.

IAF Sukhoi fighter jet crashes; navigator killed

New Delhi: One person was killed when a frontline Su-30MKI combat jet of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed while on a routine training mission in Rajasthan, an official said.

The crash occurred at 1030 hrs IST., some 70 km southeast of Jaisalmer, an IAF spokesperson said, adding that the aircraft had taken off from the Lohegaon air base near Pune.

The two-man crew ejected before the jet crashed. The pilot, Wing Commander S V Munje, survived but the navigator, Wing Commander P.S. Narah, succumbed to his injuries, the spokesperson added.

There were no reports of damage to property on the ground.

This is the first crash of a Su-30MKI, which was inducted into the IAF in 1997. The IAF operates three squadrons (approximately 55 aircraft) of the jet, which is being manufactured under license in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

It was not immediately clear whether the aircraft that crashed was among those purchased in fly away condition or had been manufactured in India

Please provide me any link except wiki that proves that IAF has 100+ SU-30. (May be ur right, but as much as I know I m sure that IAF have ~60 MKI's)

FC20/J10 will enter service in 2014-2015 again check PAF under wipi or sino defencse or even this forum as posted earlier.

Again u refered with weki., its not a reliable source.

J10-B (Not J10A) will be in PAF soon (PAF expecting in 2010 as said by ACM).

Only the delay is coz of China was adding new features in J-10B. J-10B made its first flight in Dec 2008. So cant take it in days. PAF is always looking to counter IAF n J-10B is a good choice.

J-10, J-11, FC-1
The 01 prototype of the new J-10B was unveiled in March 2009, 3 months after its maiden flight in December 2008. This much improved variant features a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST enables passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, and radar is thought to be PESA (of Russian origin?), the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. Two underwing inner pylons are strengthened for the heavier ASMs or LGBs. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17 as well. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-purpose, such as AG. In addition, the aircarft is expected to be powered by an indigenous WS-10A turbofan. Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60.
- Last Updated 5/6/09

I think this statement is enough for you "Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60".
Many features of J-10B are being incoprpoated in JF-17 so u can compare JF-17 with block 52+.
If u trust weki so much then u can refer to that else there r other websites that tells u abt JF-17.

As for F16 these are a danger only if and wen USA upgrades them to Block 52 and supplies you with 18 more in 2011...

PAF 44 F-16 are in process of MLU upgradation since August 2008.
The upgradation will take them to block 50+
PAF 42 F-16 jets upgraded to block 50+

PAF have total 46 F16 eql to Block 50+/52. 18 will be recieved in 2010.

As for JF17 versis SU30MKI ... JF fan boys keep saying will give flanker "tough tim,e " but wat does that mean and with what ..

The flankers have been studied to death by USA Austrilia & Europeans who all agree its a beast of a war plane. Its easily the best fighter Russia has produced ever. The flanker was designed to beat off USA legacy fighters like F15 F16 & EVEN EARLY F18s . In mock simulations fLANKETRS HAVE COME OUT ON TOP OF all of these.

Now are we saying that the JF17 has something additional that USA F15 F16 don,t have

I know about SU-30MKI capabilities. I know its one of the top fighters but at the same time I suggest u to study some thing abt JF-17 then put ur views.
Its true SU-30MKI is batter then JF-17 but JF-17 hav the capabilities to counter it.

One thing more Indian Su-30, Mirage 2000 violated PAkistan airspace few months ago in Lahore and Kashmir region. They were locked by F-16, F-7

Lahore: 2x Indian Air Force Su-30 (armed) – intercepted and escorted out by 3x Pakistan Air Force F-16s and 3x F-7s
Muzaffarabad: 3x Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 (armed) – intercepted and escorted out by 2x Pakistan Air Force F-16s and 2x F-7s.

Indian Jets violate the Pakistan’s airspace

One thing more maverick2009, Please quote things with proper references.

 

[hocuspocush]

One thing more Indian Su-30, Mirage 2000 violated PAkistan airspace few months ago in Lahore and Kashmir region. They were locked by F-16, F-7

Lahore: 2x Indian Air Force Su-30 (armed) – intercepted and escorted out by 3x Pakistan Air Force F-16s and 3x F-7s
Muzaffarabad: 3x Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 (armed) – intercepted and escorted out by 2x Pakistan Air Force F-16s and 2x F-7s.

Indian Jets violate the Pakistan’s airspace

One thing more maverick2009, Please quote things with proper references.

Here are couple of links denying the same(including Pakistani media):

=> geo.tv/12-14-2008/30640.htm

=> thenews.jang.com.pk/updates.asp?id=62394

=> ibnlive.in.com/news/pakistan-cries-foul-india-says-no-airspace-violation/80526-3.html

=> hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=HomePage&id=8ff72d7f-ede9-4b44-abfe-74127634fb85&ParentID=59336712-3ebc-42ed-90ae-57f436a98056&Headline=Flip-flop+Pakistan+cries+airspace+violation+again

So, your case in point???

Whether this incident happened or not, whether it was a technical incursion or a mistake and indeed a intended violation, what's the point??

The two countries were not at war. IF indian pilots did violate, it only made sense to retrieve back(regardless of, if F-16/F-7 were locked on) in order to de-escalate the situation unless india is looking to strike.

So, does this incident make PAF braver or IAF weaker??

Let's just stick to the topic and make your post count! (No offence meant)

 

[HarryPotter]

Hmm, I don't think JF-17 is a advanced air superiority fighter, but rather a multi-role and more of a interceptor which properly fits into that role.

Flanker on the other hand is a proven advanced air superiority fighter which can hold itself even in a dog fight against f-18, typhoon inspite of having a higher RCS, but its radar and avionics might balance its higher RCS.

Now when u compare a aircraft and against other, in a neutral environment and in one-one mode JF-17 doesn't even stand a remote chance in dog fight as the advanced avionics of flanker and its already existing BVR capability, endurance of 25-30 mins dogfight fuel whereas jf-17 its hardly 10 mins, its radar and its current ammunition make Flanker a beast.

If you have to pitch JF-17 against Flanker against JF-17 in the current Pakistan and Indian environment, JF-17 will play only a defensive role may be an interceptor backed with credible SAM's of Pakistan and its SaaB Erieye awacs. And it will be pitched at 2-1 numbers, even if Pakistan inducted 2 - 3 squadrons by 2010-2011, India by that time will have 7-8 Squadrons of Flankers which is a numerical superiority of a better aircraft.

In India's advantage the acquisitions of Phalcons and RJ-77 and Brahmos if inducted into its weaponry will have a distinct advantage over JF-17 solely because of its BVR capabilities and better missiles.

I did find that there are keen enthusiasts of JF-17Block II upgrade but realistically by that time the first upgrade of Flanker to the level of MIG-35 will out run JF-17 upgrade as JF-17 block II upgrade will not even get JF-17 to the current capabilities of Flanker which is a fact and I believe people who have a basic knowledge in FC will not dispute this fact.

So, JF-17 in a 1*1 combat with Flanker will be very interesting and I believe will be very amusing.

 

[hocuspocush]

Hi,
Jf-17 is a forth generation fighter.
1) Fly by Wire Control System
2) BVR Missile Support
3) Much more Agile then 3rd Generation Fighters such as Mig21, Mirage 3/5.
-
Now I think PAF should equip All Jf-17's with GRIFO Radars and SD-70 Missile.
GRFIO has a range of 100KM and SD-70 Missile has a range of 70 KM.
Now Although Su30mKi radar range is 200KM+ how ever it will not have anything to fire at that range even if it detects JF-17 because the BVR Missile it carries has a range of 80KM and anything above 80K has a very low PKK and IFF is another issue.So, I believe along with Radar and other stuff PAF should also be careful about Agility as IAF and PAF Fighters may get into Dogfights because JF-17 should be able to handle any IAF Fighter except MRCA (If MRCa gets AESA) and SU30MKI (SU30MKI can also be handled by integrating better missiles with high range and good PKK).After reading the Missile Range i don't think SU30MKI will be a huge threat once AIM120C and SD10 are fully inducted in PAF.Radar as well as Missile Range is what matters in BVR Combat.Both Pilots will try to fire at each other within 60-70Km as anything above 70KM will have a very low chance of kill (No Escape Zone is best for BVR Kill).Can anyone with real reliable knowledge tell me range of KLJ-7 Radar?There is no point of radar with 200KM+ Range detection imo when you don't have anything to fire at those ranges.

I don't agree. Kindly refer to the article below where Su-30MKI's radar aperture is compared to that of JSF and F/A-18A-F.

It also compares R-77T/P range to that of AIM-120C.

With these comparisons and upcoming upgrades in the Su-30MKI, it would not make sense to compare JF-17 to a Su-30MKI.

Not that thunder is not worthy enough, but to field it against Su-30MKI would not be less than foolish.

ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker.html

Now, some member may come up and say that this australian site it not a worthy one, BUT I would say it's the only site that has exhaustive figures on the flanker and its future upgrade path. It also directly compares the Russian missiles to that of american.....including the detecting capabilities and the RCS graph.

If anybody on this forum has any better site which indicates similar information in-terms of radars used by different Sukhoi variants and compares the BVR ranges, then please refer it otherwise think twice before rubbishing it.

 

[Haanzo]

hi

how can some one compare single -engine fighter with twin engine .....comparing apples and oranges

and how do you thank someone here ....????

 

[hocuspocush]

Another aspect of BVR combat which I don't think anybody has mentioned in this forum:

In Beyond Visual Range (BVR) combat, the Sukhoi will again have a kinematic advantage, which may be exploitable at the bounds of engagement radii, as the Sukhoi can gain separation in and out of the missile envelope of the F/A-18's and JSF faster - it has the extra thrust and combat fuel to play kinematic games both smaller fighters(read: especially JF-17) cannot.

 

[Haanzo]

one more question ...if jf-17 was soo good to counter the sukhoi...why does pakistan need f-16 blk52...the are also in the process of getting j-10 which is comparable to blk 60 right

 

[MZUBAIR]

Hmm, I don't think JF-17 is a advanced air superiority fighter, but rather a multi-role and more of a interceptor which properly fits into that role.

Flanker on the other hand is a proven advanced air superiority fighter which can hold itself even in a dog fight against f-18, typhoon inspite of having a higher RCS, but its radar and avionics might balance its higher RCS.

Now when u compare a aircraft and against other, in a neutral environment and in one-one mode JF-17 doesn't even stand a remote chance in dog fight as the advanced avionics of flanker and its already existing BVR capability, endurance of 25-30 mins dogfight fuel whereas jf-17 its hardly 10 mins, its radar and its current ammunition make Flanker a beast.

If you have to pitch JF-17 against Flanker against JF-17 in the current Pakistan and Indian environment, JF-17 will play only a defensive role may be an interceptor backed with credible SAM's of Pakistan and its SaaB Erieye awacs. And it will be pitched at 2-1 numbers, even if Pakistan inducted 2 - 3 squadrons by 2010-2011, India by that time will have 7-8 Squadrons of Flankers which is a numerical superiority of a better aircraft.

In India's advantage the acquisitions of Phalcons and RJ-77 and Brahmos if inducted into its weaponry will have a distinct advantage over JF-17 solely because of its BVR capabilities and better missiles.

I did find that there are keen enthusiasts of JF-17Block II upgrade but realistically by that time the first upgrade of Flanker to the level of MIG-35 will out run JF-17 upgrade as JF-17 block II upgrade will not even get JF-17 to the current capabilities of Flanker which is a fact and I believe people who have a basic knowledge in FC will not dispute this fact.

So, JF-17 in a 1*1 combat with Flanker will be very interesting and I believe will be very amusing.

I would like to suggest u once more.

Study about JF-17, Dont put any thing without any study.
Ur analysis is just creap abt Thunder.
Thanxs

 

[MZUBAIR]

one more question ...if jf-17 was soo good to counter the sukhoi...why does pakistan need f-16 blk52...the are also in the process of getting j-10 which is comparable to blk 60 right

Thanxs,
Atleast some one of u come up with logical question.

Pakistan has ordered a total of 111 F-16A/B aircraft. Of these, 71 were embargoed by the US due to Pakistan's nuclear weapons program. Of these 71, 28 were actually built but were flown directly to the AMARC at Davis-Monthan AFB for storage.

Over the years, various plans were conceived for these 28 aircraft: Pakistan wanted to get the aircraft or their money back; they were offered to various nations, none of which were interested; ultimately, the US Navy and USAF entered them into service as aggressor aircraft.

After Pakistan's help in the war on terror, the US lifted the embargo. In 2005, Pakistan requested 24 new Block 50/52 F-16C/Ds (with option for as much as 55 aircraft). But After 2005 Earthquake PAF altered order for 18 F-16 C/D. Whihc will be delievered in 2010-11.

Now due to the era of embargoed (1991-2004), PAF was totally ignored and this forced Pakistan to build a new aircraft. Intially it was the plan of USA & China to build a fighter called Super 7 but due to political reasons USA cancelled it.
Pakistan got a chance and asked China to continue the project with their support.
Pakistan needed the fighters in that era which would be more advanced then F-16 block A/B and they succeded in the form of JF-17 in 2006.
Pakistan & China still looking in improvements in JF-17 and planned to make it equvilant to F-16 Block 52+.

As u said

hi

how can some one compare single -engine fighter with twin engine .....comparing apples and oranges

and how do you thank someone here ....????

Yes, All on the board agree with u. JF-17 is of different class then MKI. MKI is more advanced and dangerous but In near future as planned JF-17 will be capable to compete Su-30.
JF-17 never designed to compete MKI. In reply to MKI PAF planned for J-10B.
JF-17 was planned to compete ur other fighter, but at the same time PAF looking to make it more advance, atleast to compete or give tough time to SU30.

Now for advancement.
Jf-17 is going to have new China fighter engine Woshan WS-13 TianShan (For more thrust and power) to raplace RD-93 turbofan engine (varient of RD-33 engine used in mig 29). PAF is also considering fitting European powerplants such as the French Snecma M88 (used in Raffel) to its aircraft

Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) system will be encorporated shortly.

Minor airframe modifications to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by adding stealthy features

Beyond the initial 50 PAF JF-17s, the remaining production aircraft may also be equipped with European avionics, radars and weaponry (probabily French). Pakistan had begun negotiations with British and Italian defence firms over potential avionics and radars for JF-17 during initial development. Some of the radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7 and the French Thomson-CSF RC400 (a variant of the RDY-2), along with the MBDA MICA IR/RF short/medium range air-to-air missiles

Now as u said and i m glad atleast one Indian is ablt to agree that J-10A is equal to F-16 block 60.

Pakistan is procuring J-10B, more advance then J-10A to counter SU-30 MKI.
J-10B is more advanced then J10A (J-10 A is eql to F-16 block 60).

I hope things are cleared to u as u asked

 

[Haanzo]

yeah they are pretty much cleared ...what radar and electronics this j-10 and 17 have ....are they aqual to blk-50 and 60 in those too....

j-10 b is better than blk 60 doesit have an AESA and all is the weapons pakage as good as on the blk -60

 

[sancho]

Nobody believes on wikipei.
Few weeks ago When one MKI crashed down, I read on paper and also heared news that India grounded all its 60 MKI's right after the incident.

IAF Sukhoi fighter jet crashes; navigator killed

Please provide me any link except wiki that proves that IAF has 100+ SU-30. (May be ur right, but as much as I know I m sure that IAF have ~60 MKI's)

Again u refered with weki., its not a reliable source.

It's always easy to say wiki is not reliable if you don't check at least the sources they are quoting:
List of aircraft of the Indian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India eventually will acquire a total of 230 aircraft by 2014-15.[4]

Source 4:Top russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

The Indian Air Force, after years of negotiations, purchased 50 Su-30 aircraft in 1996 and acquired the license from Sukhoi and Russia to manufacture an additional 140 Su-30MKI aircraft. Currently 116 Sukhoi-30MKI are in service.

The numbers will rise fast, cause next year the first of 40 Mkis orderd from Russia in 2007 should arrive and the licence production will be faster. It is expected that around 2015 all 230 Mki should be in service and maybe the early once will get an upgrade (new engines and maybe AESA radar).

 

[sancho]

Now as u said and i m glad atleast one Indian is ablt to agree that J-10A is equal to F-16 block 60.

Pakistan is procuring J-10B, more advance then J-10A to counter SU-30 MKI.
J-10B is more advanced then J10A (J-10 A is eql to F-16 block 60).

I hope things are cleared to u as u asked

Without AESA radar it can't be equal to F16 Block 60 right? I belive J10A comes close to F16 block 52 but also needs time to improve.

 

[Haanzo]

so speaking of chinese weapons systems are they as mature as americans or russians ...PLEASE REMEMBER PLANES ARE JUST THE DELIVERY PLATFORMS ...THE WEAPONS ARE THE REAL KILLERS ...PEOPLE ALWAYS COMPARE PLANES AND NOT THEIR WEAPONS

also considering american planes are serius contenders in the MMRCA deal ..will the jf-17 ,j-10 be able to counter them too ( it might as your posts say they are similar to blk-50,60)

here are some things i got from raytheon stall in aero india 2009

they will be on the vipers and the superbugs ...and this is a whole new level of defence ...so whats pakistans\chinas answer to these as american planes might make their way into the IAF

all are welcome to comment not just MUZABIR

 

[hocuspocush]

Thanxs,

As u said

Yes, All on the board agree with u. JF-17 is of different class then MKI. MKI is more advanced and dangerous but In near future as planned JF-17 will be capable to compete Su-30.
JF-17 never designed to compete MKI. In reply to MKI PAF planned for J-10B.
JF-17 was planned to compete ur other fighter, but at the same time PAF looking to make it more advance, atleast to compete or give tough time to SU30.

Now for advancement.
Jf-17 is going to have new China fighter engine Woshan WS-13 TianShan (For more thrust and power) to raplace RD-93 turbofan engine (varient of RD-33 engine used in mig 29). PAF is also considering fitting European powerplants such as the French Snecma M88 (used in Raffel) to its aircraft

Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) system will be encorporated shortly.

Minor airframe modifications to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by adding stealthy features

Beyond the initial 50 PAF JF-17s, the remaining production aircraft may also be equipped with European avionics, radars and weaponry (probabily French). Pakistan had begun negotiations with British and Italian defence firms over potential avionics and radars for JF-17 during initial development. Some of the radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7 and the French Thomson-CSF RC400 (a variant of the RDY-2), along with the MBDA MICA IR/RF short/medium range air-to-air missiles

Now as u said and i m glad atleast one Indian is ablt to agree that J-10A is equal to F-16 block 60.

Pakistan is procuring J-10B, more advance then J-10A to counter SU-30 MKI.
J-10B is more advanced then J10A (J-10 A is eql to F-16 block 60).

I hope things are cleared to u as u asked

You think that with future upgrades, JF-17 will be able to compete with Su-30MKI. Think again! ! ! !

It's good that JF-17 is getting its due upgrades in the future to make it a more competitive aircraft. However, you should also keep in the mind, the upgrades being done on its rival opponent.

Here are the future upgrade options for Sukhoi-30MKI:

1. Supersonic cruise 40,000 lbf class AL-41F engines replacing the AL-31F.
2. Thrust vectoring (TVC) engine nozzles with 2D or 3D capability.

3. Digital Flight Control System (DFCS) becoming standard for late build Flankers. The Su-37 included redundant sidestick controls for the pilot.

4. Canard foreplanes for enhanced high alpha agility. Production hardware on Su-33 and Su-30MKI.

5. An active phased array (AESA) fire control radar replacing the N-001 and N-011/011M series.
6. A two color band FLIR/IRST sensor replacing the OLS-30, using QWIP imaging array technology.
7. COTS based computer hardware running COTS based software.
8. A Helmet Mounted Display with FLIR projection capability. Such an upgrade was being discussed some years ago, and would be easily accommodated with a FLIR/IRST sensor.

9. Full glass cockpit based on digital technology. Given the current delivery of first generation glass cockpits in Su-30MK and Su-27SKM, this is a natural progression.

10. Heatseeking and anti radiation variants of the R-77 Amraamski, and extended range ramjet powered variants of the R-77. All are in advanced development and actively being marketed.

11. Advanced digital variants of the R-73/74 Archer close-in air to air missile. These have been actively marketed.

12. AWACS killer long range missiles in the 160 to 200 nautical mile range category. The R-37/AA-X-13 Arrow remains in development for the Su-35, the R-172 was recently reported as the subject of licence negotiations with India. Su-35 upgrade marketing literature depicts the use of such missiles.

13. Cruise missiles for standoff attacks. China acquired Kh-55SM/AS-15 Kent cruise missiles from the Ukraine, and is manufacturing indigenous designs. India intends to use the supersonic Brahmos on its Su-30MKIs.
14. Advanced jam resistant fighter to fighter and fighter to AWACS datalinks and networks. Further evolution of protocol software will see this technology grow to match current US capabilities.

15. Radar absorbent materials for radar observables reduction. Numerous Russian unclassified papers detail a range of technologies for surface wave suppression and edge signature reduction, with a specific aim of reducing legacy aircraft observables.

16. Aerial refuelling probes, pylon plumbing for drop tanks, and buddy refuelling stores. Production hardware available off the shelf.

 

[maverick2009]

MZUBAIR

Re SU30 MKI the report suggest 3 Squadrons at 55 fighters approx. Which of course is where you got your nos from.

But ALL OF HERE ARE FOLLWING su30 mki very closely i can tell you there are 5 operational squadrons. With a full squd having 18 fighters each minimum in IAF.

Bharat Raksha which is the equal of this Forum to indians confirms 5 squadrons too. " They both cant be wrong.

Currently india is building 14 new SU30 MKI A YEAR off indian production lines since 2004. India had 50 fighters de;livered direct from Russia way back in period 2002-2006.

Total production finishes by 2014 ie 230 fighters. in total.

Second point see Hyper link off this forum re delivery of FC20 by 2014 not next year by your collegue HJ786

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-62.html

Again you got this info wrong