Strength of alliance between India-Isreal

[Vinod2070]

The Chinese know that sometimes you have to make a pact with the devil.

And it is fine for them to do it?

Not for India though! Because you are saying so? Being the best well wisher we can possibly have?

Or being our moral guardian because you have established so much moral credibility?

 

[Wonderer]

This

National interests is not a carte blanche to sell your soul.

Then this

Sometimes there are extentuating circumstances, as with China.

Then this
The Chinese know that sometimes you have to make a pact with the devil.

What i understand is

There are some extentuating circumstances with china to make a pact with the devil but National interests is not a carte blanche to sell their soul.

 

[Vinod2070]

Even the worst criminal will always find allies. It doesn't mean the criminal is right or justified.

Like we have some right here.

Ready to justify the worst atrocities in our own region and on their own ancestors!

 

[Vinod2070]

Now, one suggestion.

Do apply the golden rule when you start dishing out advice.

Golden rule: Do unto others what you will have done unto you.

I know it is galling for people like Developero who don't want to be judged by the same yardstick that they use for others and cry blue murder (Islamophobe) when facts are pointed out to them.

However galling it is, it is the only thing that will work and gain you respect, not empty rhetoric in which you are pretty damn good.

Want respect, respect others.

If that is too much, don't expect respect for yourself.

This can be extended quite a bit but I hope "Akalmand ho isharaa kaafi hai".

 

[Developereo]

emotional mumbo-jumbo.

Standing up to Nazi genocide was not 'emotional mumbo jumbo'.
Standing up to apartheid era South Africa was not 'emotional mumbo jumbo'.
And standing up to Zionism is not 'emotional mumbo jumbo' -- except to people who want to rationalize it away.

All this hullabaloo is not about, if one is entitled to have empathy for one's kin. It is about how a State shall conduct its affairs with another State, and whether kinship should get priority over the collective well being of a State, particularly where there is a conflict between the two (kinship & national interest).

Where doesd kinship come into this?
Why is it not possible to sympathize with people who are not your 'kin'?
By that logic you would have turned a blind eye to Nazi Germany or apartheid era South Africa because you are not Jewish or black.
This seems to be a common thread among many Indian posters that anyone who cares for the Palestinian cause is 'more Arab than Arabs' and is 'speaking for the ummah'.

...and who decides what those extenuating circumstances are - the people/leaders of the effected country or gas bags from some other country.

Of course each country decides its own foreign policy. But the decision is open for comment by all.

...in your mind.

Mine and most of the world's as shown by opinion polls.

Sometimes there are extentuating circumstances, as with China

I would be really interested in this . What are those factors? And why India doesnt qualify? Turkey I can guess.

CD already mentioned a major factor: access to Western tech despite Western embargo.

India doesn't have such an embargo.

 

[Wonderer]

India buys Israeli spy satellite: report

NEW DELHI (AFP) — India has bought a spy satellite from Israel with day-and-night viewing capability to boost surveillance capabilities in the aftermath of the Mumbai militant attacks, a report said Friday.

The satellite, which can see through clouds and carry out day-and-night all-weather imaging, has been one of the long-standing demands of the Indian military, the NDTV news channel said.

The 300 kilogram (650 pound) RISAT 2 will be launched by India's Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle rocket in the next few weeks, the report said.

Indian scientists were in the process of integrating the satellite and the rocket at the Sriharikota space port in southern India, it said.

The acquisition was fast-tracked after the November 26-29 Mumbai siege in which 10 gunmen went on a shooting spree.

India says the attackers came by boat from the Pakistani port city of Karachi to Mumbai, based on its investigations and the confession of the lone gunman captured alive after the 60-hour siege, in which 165 people were killed.

India's existing satellites get blinded at night and in the monsoon season.

NDTV said the new acquisition would also provide New Delhi with the capability to track incoming hostile ballistic missiles.

India treated Israel like a pariah for decades, but has forged close military links with Tel Aviv in recent years with the Jewish state replacing France in 2007 as its second-largest arms supplier after Russia.


I think these terrorist activities by the so called 'Non state actors' from our not so friendly neighbourhood created extentuating circumstances for India to deal with Israel which has experties in dealing with similar terrorist regimes?

 

[Developereo]

China's national policies are driven by pure national interest. I mean look at the enormous trading relationship between China and Japan, pragmatism over-rules historical greviances.

Yes, but would China do business with Japan if the latter were holding several million Han Chinese in refugee camps and refusing to let them return to their homes solely because they were Han?

Or if someone formed a military alliance with Malaysia or Indonesia, and the latter used that same military to keep millions of Hans in refugee camps -- not decades ago, but today and ongoing?

Hypothetical questions, I know, but that is the more appropriate analogy with Israel.

 

[Developereo]

you hate Israelis

I didn't use to. If you look at my previous posts in this forum, I made it clear I don't hold people born in Israel accountable for their parents' crimes.

But I have become more pessimistic about the situation. Every indication is that Israeli society is becoming more intolerant, racist and jingoistic. That doesn't bode well for the future.

And, for the record, I never bought the two-state solution unless the core issues of refugees and Jerusalem were decided up-front. Without resolving these two issues, all the peace offers were cruel publicity stunts by politicians at the expense of the Israeli and Palestinian people's emotions.

 

[Developereo]

Well I tried but I always knew your delusions are too deeply rooted.

You may think whatever of yourself, just know that others look at you very differently. You are a hypocrite and a deluded person and all can see it.

You can either understand this and make some changes or you can go on and make yourself look more stupid.

I only deal with facts.
You keep popping up with diversionsary rants, I confront you with actual facts, and you run off into a different diversion.
Someone sure is looking stupid here, and it ain't me.

Mr. excuse, this is not off-topic! You claimed to have an issue with "discrimination on the basis of religion"! Now you want to run away again by claiming "off-topic".

Because it is jsut your excuse to revel in gratuitous Pakistan bashing. It doesn't involve millions of people living in refugee camps. We are not talking about solving all the world's problems, just one of the most severe cases, i.e. Israel.

Accusing people of Islamophobia or diversion doesn't help. Just know it.

When someone keeps avoiding the topic and launching into anti-Islam tirades, the shoe fits.

It is clear who is "despising" countries, "forcing" people out from their residences and trying to create conditions for mass extinction in the Middle East.

I already explained in a previous post why I have become more extreme in my views on Israel.
And no, I am still not the one who wants mass extinction in the ME. That distinction belongs to you with your 'bring it on', living your Islamophobic fantasies vicariously through Israel.

Suppose this is true (and it is not), would it take away from what I mentioned? Would that make you not"despise" nations that practice it?

The BJP sanctioned currlculum is true. I have already posted links quoting religiously bigoted passages from the school textbooks.
The issue, once again, is one of scale: is it one of the most extreme cases of religious bigotry on the planet or should we deal with those other cases first?

Just know once and for all. It is you who is in need of getting education and more than that, a sense of balance, ratio and proportions.

Uh huh. here comes the sanctimonious lecture when I refuted yet another one of your ridiculous canards.
You claimed that Israeli Arabs enjoyed full equal rights in Israel. They don't. I showed you. QED.

So this is not "off-topic".

You are the one who brought up India's human rights record. Not me. I merely listed a couple of state-sanctioned massacres off the top of my head.

But let me respond to it now. I won't dismiss it like you Islamists do when faced with uncomfortable facts.

No, you will just whitewash it and dismiss them as aberrations, ignoring the fact that most of the culprits are still running free.

Now come to your own track record. No minority Muslim sects are safe. Thousand of Shia killed (5600 was the last I read few years back), Pushtuns killed in hundreds randomly in Karachi with state support, Ahmedia being persecuted with state support, blasphemy laws being misused, human slavery still in place, no land reforms, the 22 families (?) controlling the country, a country for the army, spewing terror all over the neighborhood if not al over the world.

I won't go into a litany of India's human rights problems -- not because of lack of material -- but simply to remain on topic. Suffice it to say that you are looking selectively at the negative picture only. My friends and family are from a Shia minority sect and are doing just fine. In fact, better than fine. And our Parsi and Christian friends are also doing just fine.

There are problems in Pakistan but they are mostly due to lack of law and order, thereby allowing criminals to take advantage.

 

[Developereo]

Yes. The whole 30 pages of debate has been because someone claimed that India is joining an "anti Islam" alliance by having ties with Israel.

Disingenuous. The discussion is specifically about military alliances, not mere diplomatic ties.

Israel is viewed quite negatively in the world, possibly because the poll was conducted less than six months following the Israel/Hezbollah war in Lebanon.

The poll numbers for Israel are remarkably consistent over time; they mau shift a few percent up or down, but not much change.

In any case, the point which you lost once again, was your assertion that most of the world favors Israel (based on the chart of diplomatic relations). I proved you wrong. Point scored.

The rest of your post is your usual tap dancing to wiggle into some new diversion after losing a point.

 

[iPakMan]

Even the worst criminal will always find allies. It doesn't mean the criminal is right or justified.
As for my view on Israel, look at the bottom of this post...



Just parroting Islamophobic propaganda from your Indian friends will not cut mustard. Many countries have committed crimes, but Israel stands in a league all its own. Again, world opinion agrees with me.

I stopped reading after these two quotes, sorry. But allow me to adress them.
Yes 99.9% of countries deal with Muslim countries because they have Oil and resources, regardless of the fact that most of these countries are inhabited by 15th century animalistic hateful people.
I`m not "parroting Islamophobic propaganda" because Israel knows better than anyone exactly what Islam is when taking the worst from the Qoran. And if you believe Israel stands in a league of her own then i have bad news for you buddy, Islamic nations stand in a Universe of their own with regards to Inhumanities.
Someone here asked why does 1.4 Billion people want 7 Million as their close friend? Well the answer is simple; those 1.4 Billion people looked at us, saw what we have gone through in the past 6 decades alone and saw themselves going through the same thing.
I can`t speak for anyone else but when i see and read what the Hindus have gone through themselves it makes me feel sympathy, anger and it makes me feel it is our obligation to stand by their side and help them crush these animals that have terrorized them in the name of misguided interpretations of Islam.

 

[Dalai Lama]

Yes, but would China do business with Japan if the latter were holding several million Han Chinese in refugee camps and refusing to let them return to their homes solely because they were Han?

Or if someone formed a military alliance with Malaysia or Indonesia, and the latter used that same military to keep millions of Hans in refugee camps -- not decades ago, but today and ongoing?

Hypothetical questions, I know, but that is the more appropriate analogy with Israel.

That's one of the "worst" analogies I've seen, for lack of a better word. You're trying to equate China's relationship with Japan with the Indo-Israeli relationship?! Unlike China-Japan, India-Israel don't have a hostile history with each other remember?

Anyway didn't I give you a satisfactory answer in post 441? I thought I summarised it pretty well. Please read it.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ance-between-india-isreal-30.html#post1541167

 

[Dalai Lama]

I stopped reading after these two quotes, sorry. But allow me to adress them.
Yes 99.9% of countries deal with Muslim countries because they have Oil and resources, regardless of the fact that most of these countries are inhabited by 15th century animalistic hateful people.
I`m not "parroting Islamophobic propaganda" because Israel knows better than anyone exactly what Islam is when taking the worst from the Qoran. And if you believe Israel stands in a league of her own then i have bad news for you buddy, Islamic nations stand in a Universe of their own with regards to Inhumanities.
Someone here asked why does 1.4 Billion people want 7 Million as their close friend? Well the answer is simple; those 1.4 Billion people looked at us, saw what we have gone through in the past 6 decades alone and saw themselves going through the same thing.
I can`t speak for anyone else but when i see and read what the Hindus have gone through themselves it makes me feel sympathy, anger and it makes me feel it is our obligation to stand by their side and help them crush these animals that have terrorized them in the name of misguided interpretations of Islam.

@Developereo

Let me use iPakMan's post here to explain:

Both Israel and India have been victims of terror ever since they're existence from a foreign entity/Islamic terrorists (And India has had it's internal terror threats too, I'm not refuting that). So understandably both peoples from India and Israel share a common sense of grievance and mutual understanding - I'm judging this by my interactions with Israelis on this forum and out in the real world.

Is this what you're having trouble understanding? Is this why you think that the relationship is an "anti-Islamic alliance"?

 

[Developereo]

I stopped reading after these two quotes, sorry. But allow me to adress them.
Yes 99.9% of countries deal with Muslim countries because they have Oil and resources, regardless of the fact that most of these countries are inhabited by 15th century animalistic hateful people.
I`m not "parroting Islamophobic propaganda" because Israel knows better than anyone exactly what Islam is when taking the worst from the Qoran. And if you believe Israel stands in a league of her own then i have bad news for you buddy, Islamic nations stand in a Universe of their own with regards to Inhumanities.
Someone here asked why does 1.4 Billion people want 7 Million as their close friend? Well the answer is simple; those 1.4 Billion people looked at us, saw what we have gone through in the past 6 decades alone and saw themselves going through the same thing.
I can`t speak for anyone else but when i see and read what the Hindus have gone through themselves it makes me feel sympathy, anger and it makes me feel it is our obligation to stand by their side and help them crush these animals that have terrorized them in the name of misguided interpretations of Islam.

No, you are indulging in your own Islamophobia because it is tolerated here. If anyone referred to the Israelis in a similar fashion, since they justify their behavior by a similar misinterpretation of the Torah and Talmud, they would be branded anti-semitic.

As for the rest of your sanctimonious tripe, there are lots of skeletons in everyone's closet, including Jews and Hindus. Let's just leave it at that.

That's one of the "worst" analogies I've seen, for lack of a better word. You're trying to equate China's relationship with Japan with the Indo-Israeli relationship?! Unlike China-Japan, India-Israel don't have a hostile history with each other remember?

No, that was in response to the generic statement that national interests supercede historical grievances. My point was that when grievances are not just historical but current, then the situation changes.

Anyway didn't I give you a satisfactory answer in post 441? I thought I summarised it pretty well. Please read it.

Yes, I read it and my response (I am not sure if I posted it) was: you did not do 'business' with apartheid-era South Africa, so why Israel?

After all, none other than Nelson Mandela equated the two.

@Developereo

Let me use iPakMan's post here to explain:

Both Israel and India have been victims of terror ever since they're existence from a foreign entity/Islamic terrorists (And India has had it's internal terror threats too, I'm not refuting that). So understandably both peoples from India and Israel share a common sense of grievance and mutual understanding - I'm judging this by my interactions with Israelis on this forum and out in the real world.

Is this what you're having trouble understanding? Is this why you think that the relationship is an "anti-Islamic alliance"?

Israel uses the Palestinian terror as an excuse for its brutality. It's a vicious circle and the Israelis, being the ones in power, can end it immediately by allowing the Palestinians refugees to return to their homes in Israel.

In the case of India, there are allegations, by Indians, that random Muslims get harassed every time some terror scare occurs. Now I am not saying that India is anti-Muslim, but there are certainly elements that use counter-terrorism as a cover to indulge in anti-Muslim bigotry.

Given that situation, and Israel's history, is it really the best country to ally with in fighting terrorism?

 

[toxic_pus]

Standing up to Nazi genocide was not 'emotional mumbo jumbo'.
Standing up to apartheid era South Africa was not 'emotional mumbo jumbo'.
And standing up to Zionism is not 'emotional mumbo jumbo' -- except to people who want to rationalize it away.

Firstly, lets not rip each other's quote out of context. Here's my quote in entirety.

Exactly. National Interest. Everything else is just couch-commandeering.

Even the Chinese love for Islamic world is for the resources that they happen to control. Again national interest. Not some emotional mumbo-jumbo.

Isn't that the point we are all trying to make?

Secondly, the Chinese are of course exempted, right?

Where doesd kinship come into this?
Why is it not possible to sympathize with people who are not your 'kin'?
By that logic you would have turned a blind eye to Nazi Germany or apartheid era South Africa because you are not Jewish or black.
This seems to be a common thread among many Indian posters that anyone who cares for the Palestinian cause is 'more Arab than Arabs' and is 'speaking for the ummah'.

Nice snake oil there. It would have been a lot more convincing if you hadn't called Israel 'anti-Islam' etc. and given a long lecture why you think it is so. Your flip-flops are becoming epic.

Of course each country decides its own foreign policy. But the decision is open for comment by all.

But you are not just commenting. You are practically telling us how we should run our country, or what friends we should keep; why and how.

Mine and most of the world's as shown by opinion polls.

Really, you know exactly what 'Isreal represents' in 'most of the world's' mind?

CD already mentioned a major factor: access to Western tech despite Western embargo.

India doesn't have such an embargo.

More snake oil. Why would accessing western tech, primarily military ones, be considered as such an 'extenuating circumstance' that would excuse China for having 'sold their soul' to deal with the 'devil'. Would there have been severe food shortages without those western techs, like for example, IAI Lavi? Would China have perished without western techs? Would there have been severe calamities in China if it were not for those Western techs?

Oh, by the way, the Israeli-Chinese co-operation began in early 80s. Embargo was imposed in 1989. You were saying...?