Strength of alliance between India-Isreal

[Developereo]

...So, what is your claim exactly? That, Indo-Israeli relations stem from an anti-Islamic motive?

No, let me give you a brief history of modern Israel to show why I despise them so:

- A small smattering of Jews had lived in Palestine for ever.
- In late 19th and early 20th century, the Ottomans rulers and local Arabs welcomed Jews fleeing persecution from Europe. What they didn't know. in their naivete, was that many of these Jews were Zionists with a hidden agenda to 'reclaim' Palestine.
- The Zionist immigrants secretly went about setting up the apparatus of a future state methodically, all the while enjoying the hospitality of the Arabs.
- After they had gained sufficient numbers, and secured the promise of Israel through the Balfour Declaration, the Zionists launched a terror campaign to drive non-Jews (Muslims and Christians) out of Palestine.
- After becoming a state in 1948, they refuse to let the refugees return because they would spoil the 'Jewish nature' of Israel.
- In order to use the anti-semitism and Holocaust sympathy cards, the Zionists hijacked Judaism and termed their struggle as a 'Jewish' struggle.

Since the vast majority of the Arabs so evicted were Muslim, the resulting backlash created the anti-Muslim agenda of Israel.
The Christian world was not so energized primarily because the Zionists co-opted Bible prophecies about Jesus' return to get evangelical and fundamentalist Christians to their side.

The question is simply why would anyone help a country which engages in such gross human rights abuse? It's no use to say "well so and so also does it". That kind of apologist logic can be used to excuse anything.

India wouldn't have done business with Nazi Germany. They didn't do business with apartheid-era South Africa. So why Israel, knowing the kinds of things they do?

 

[Developereo]

English

Still stinging, eh?

Not to worry. Truth is like a blam: stings at first but you know it's good for you in the long run.

school textbooks

See, this is why you are a pathetic excuse of a debater.

You don't debate an issue: you use it as a platform to launch into endless tirades to vent your Islamophobia and then accuse people of 'hypocrisy' when they refuse to be dragged into your diversionary alleys.

Now, in response to this latest derailment, I could respond with passages from RSS and BHP sanctioned textbooks full of vile passages against Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and all non-Hindu minorities in India. But that would be wrong, not to mention off-topic.

I'll let you wallow in your putrid pool of hatred. And, yes, I know you will call me a 'hypocrite' for refusing to engage in this diversion.

Israel treats its minority Arab citizens far better than this. They are even allowed full legal equality. Still not good enough for you?

You are truly clueless about the status of Israeli Arabs. There are many threads on PDF and links on google showing the blatant discrimination against Israeli Arabs. I'm frankly getting tired of educating you on yet another issue. You refuse to take charge of your own ignorance and at least educate yourself about an issue before jumping into a debate.

This is getting beyond ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

While formally equal according to Israeli law, a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:

The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority’s awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted, both within the Arab sector and outside it, and by official assessments, as a chief cause of agitation

Same for India? You always find issues there?

The victims of 1984 anti-Sikh riots, the 2002 anti-Muslim pogroms and the anti-Christian violence has not gone unnoticed. Splendid human rights record. Not.

 

[Developereo]

OK, just troublesome. An understatement? Islamic countries have the worst freedom of religion and gender. You can check any neutral reputed study on this.

And how does that excuse what Israel is doing? Oh right, it doesn't.

See, apologists like you would have done business with apartheid-era South Africa because, by gosh, black tribes in Africa do far worse to each other.

You want to get into what that troublesome means?

It doesn't mean herding them into enclaves and refugee camps, if that's what you mean.
It doesn't mean state-sanctioned massacres like 1984 anti-Sikh and 2002 anti-Muslim pogroms.

You have almost completely ethnically cleansed your country goddammit. Can't you see the facts when they stare you in the eye!

Again, the vast majority of Pakistan's Hindus were in East Pakistan, where they still remain.
The remaining minorities remain and flourish, despite occasional incidents. Certainly we haven't had anything on the scale of the 1984 or 2002 massacres in our eastern neighbor.

I knew. You have no legs to stand on here. Just like your 9/11 wide eyed conspiracy theories that all Islamists float.

Two perfectly fine legs. And you are welcome to browse the 9/11 threads to educate yourself about the issues raised by the official 9/11 Commission.

Of course, given your inability to grapple with basic logic, math, history and geopolitics, it's a sure bet that you will have scant understanding of what is being discussed, but you can always bring it up as a diversionary tactic when flailing about for an escape.

What was the last point where you got thrashed and then ran off into this particular diversion? Oh yes, Kargil.

You can enjoy and it shows how much you are cut off from the real world. You are a funny man, fun to toy with.

Oh, I'm enjoying it immensely. The self-professed Zionism expert who doesn't know about evangelical Christians....

So there were 600 K Jews before the 1948 war who took on the much bigger Arab numbers and secured their lives from the genocidal thugs? I didn't claim anything else. I just said there were migrations even before 1948.

You can't repeat what you never said. This "vast majority" is a new word in this discussion. The Balfour declaration is almost 100 years old and that is what I said earlier.

No point in stating the obvious.

More rwisting and turning. You said "the Jews have been there for 100 years", which is a meaningless statement since there were always some Jews in Palestine. But the full scale migration didn't start until the 1920s and really until after 1948.

Who blamed the Arabs?

When I said why should Palestinians pay the price for the Romans' crimes, you said because they were evicted from Palestine. So, once again, why should Palestinian Arabs have to leave their homes because of what the Romans did 2000 years ago?

Only for you. The world laughs at this pathetic equation of Pakistan with Islam.

Pakistan is an Islamic country, so when we say Israel is against Muslim countries, it includes Pakistan.
It's really not that complicated: you will get it eventually if you concentrate.

The deal was old and IAF had only marginal role in the Kargil war.

Uh huh. You know better than the air marshall, I'm sure.

The "high altitude" one? Sure!

Yup. Them's the ones.
That you denied and were corrected by me. Oops...

Making a list of your follies and ignorance. Sure, go on.

You were proved ignorant in each of them.

You only tried to foolishly justify their relations with Israel while labeling Indian relations as anti-Islam. You think that is victory!

Let's review:
You didn't know the real reasons behind Turkey's relationship with Israel.
You didn't know about the overwhelming public antipathy towards Israel in Egypt and other countries that are 'friendly' to Israel.
You didn't know about Israel's help to India during Kargil.
You didn't know the fundamental difference between Uighur situation and Palestinian situation.
You didn't know the reasons for China's relationship with Israel.
You didn't know about the rampant anti-Arab discrimination in Israel, as acknowledged by their High Court.
You didn't know about the pattern of Jewish migration into Israel.
You didn't know basic logic that the premise 'All A are B' doesn't imply 'All B are A'
You didn;t know the role of evangelical Christians in Zionism.

This is just off the top of my head. You keep bringing in ridiculous diversions every time you are thrashed.
The latest attempt is school curricula, neocons and 9/11.
As if they have anything to do with the topic.

 

[iPakMan]

Developereo, i`ve read what you wrote(some of it) and i`d like to say to you that i love you!
I really do i`m not being cynical, you say you hate Israelis and as an Israeli i tell you that you are my inspiration. So i can`t hate you for being you, instead i hope you continue being you. Your hatred makes our bond with India grow ever stronger.

P.S

I find your logic very amusing. If we go by your logic, no nation on the planet should do any sort of business or interaction with any Muslim state, Ever...

 

[HinduAtheist]

Long live Indo-Israeli Friendship!​

 

[Dalai Lama]

The question is simply why would anyone help a country which engages in such gross human rights abuse? It's no use to say "well so and so also does it". That kind of apologist logic can be used to excuse anything.

India wouldn't have done business with Nazi Germany. They didn't do business with apartheid-era South Africa. So why Israel, knowing the kinds of things they do?

Okay, I'm disregarding the "brief history" part as it really doesn't relate to the topic at hand.

Now, here's the reality: Israel exists! There's 7 million Israeli's and they're here to stay. No body's going to kick them out of their rightful home. Now, they do have a territorial dispute with Palestine and they have violated human rights. I'm not arguing against that. However sticking your head in the sand and refusing to recognise their existence is going to provide little result. This is exactly what GoP is doing. From the Indian side, we have a good relationship with both the Israelis and the Palestinians and I reiterate; GoI advocates a peaceful resolution to the matter.

Indo-Isreali ties are based on mutual trust and interests. What they provide us in terms of military technology is still paid for. It's business and nothing more. Of course, you are free to read into it and draw your own conclusions be it that it's an "anti-Islamic" one etc. That's your personal choice and at the end of the day your not going to achieve anything by it.

And we definitely aren't being apologetic about having a diplomatic relationship with Israel. We certainly don't need to justify our ties in any way to anyone, especially not Pakistan. This is the reality. Label it whatever you may but it's not going to change it.

 

[Mike2011]

Developereo,

I read most of the posts. I don't understand what you are trying to say. Can you summarize it please?

BTW keep in mind that english is my second language.

Thanks!

 

[Vinod2070]

No, let me give you a brief history of modern Israel to show why I despise them so:

Yes, you despise them. Just say so.

We chose not to despise them. We want a solution that alleviates the suffering pf Palestinians.

We chose not to despise (and shun) Pakistan also despite the much bigger and much more total ethnic cleansing of Hindu and Sikhs and worse conditions of the small numbers remaining. Also all the suffering of Afghans caused due to your support of them.

You may scream off topic but these are facts. We need to look forward for solutions. For historical injustices, one can either take revenge that will make the whole world go blind or one can move on.

-----

India wouldn't have done business with Nazi Germany. They didn't do business with apartheid-era South Africa. So why Israel, knowing the kinds of things they do?

The map shared earlier shows that much of the world doesn't agree with your interpretation. Just leave it at that.

I repeat again, your pretensions of moral superiority is only amusing if not downright hypocritical. Given the selective application of it.

 

[toxic_pus]

India wouldn't have done business with Nazi Germany. They didn't do business with apartheid-era South Africa. So why Israel, knowing the kinds of things they do?

Do you ask your Chinese brethren the same question?

China Israel Bilateral Trade | Israel's Trade Mission to China

An extract from the above link.

China and Israel began their trade relations long before the actual establishment of the diplomatic relations in 1992. Though the initial figures were quite modest, due to the constant and rapid growth in trade throughout the years, the bilateral trade between the two countries has already surpassed 4 billion US$ (Nov. 2007).

It is a bit amusing to watch how a Pakistani would go to any ridiculous length to set up an apologia for his own country's emotion induced rhetoric-only, vacuous foreign policy.

It is also nice to know that you hold us, the bad, bad Indians to such 'high' standards, but not your all weather friend.

 

[Vinod2070]

Still stinging, eh?

Not to worry. Truth is like a blam: stings at first but you know it's good for you in the long run.

Well I tried but I always knew your delusions are too deeply rooted.

You may think whatever of yourself, just know that others look at you very differently. You are a hypocrite and a deluded person and all can see it.

You can either understand this and make some changes or you can go on and make yourself look more stupid.

See, this is why you are a pathetic excuse of a debater.

You don't debate an issue: you use it as a platform to launch into endless tirades to vent your Islamophobia and then accuse people of 'hypocrisy' when they refuse to be dragged into your diversionary alleys.\

Mr. excuse, this is not off-topic! You claimed to have an issue with "discrimination on the basis of religion"! Now you want to run away again by claiming "off-topic".

Typical tactic that has been shown up and rejected.

Face this issue if you really care for "discrimination on the basis of religion", that you claimed was the basis of your considering Israel as "anti-Islam".

Accusing people of Islamophobia or diversion doesn't help. Just know it.

I'll let you wallow in your putrid pool of hatred. And, yes, I know you will call me a 'hypocrite' for refusing to engage in this diversion.

It is clear who is "despising" countries, "forcing" people out from their residences and trying to create conditions for mass extinction in the Middle East.

So it is also clear who deserves these epithets.

Now, in response to this latest derailment, I could respond with passages from RSS and BHP sanctioned textbooks full of vile passages against Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and all non-Hindu minorities in India. But that would be wrong, not to mention off-topic.

Suppose this is true (and it is not), would it take away from what I mentioned? Would that make you not"despise" nations that practice it?

You are truly clueless about the status of Israeli Arabs. There are many threads on PDF and links on google showing the blatant discrimination against Israeli Arabs. I'm frankly getting tired of educating you on yet another issue. You refuse to take charge of your own ignorance and at least educate yourself about an issue before jumping into a debate.

This is getting beyond ridiculous.

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While formally equal according to Israeli law, a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:

The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority’s awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted, both within the Arab sector and outside it, and by official assessments, as a chief cause of agitation

Just know once and for all. It is you who is in need of getting education and more than that, a sense of balance, ratio and proportions.

Your arrogance is wholly undeserved.

I am not here to defend any unfair treatment but they do enjoy better legal rights than in many Islamic countries including yours.

Again check the Hudbhoy article that exposes your hypocrisy again.

This time after removing that filter!

You hate Israel for some reaons that have nothing to do with human rights and "discrimination on the basis of religion".

The victims of 1984 anti-Sikh riots, the 2002 anti-Muslim pogroms and the anti-Christian violence has not gone unnoticed. Splendid human rights record. Not.

So this is not "off-topic".

But let me respond to it now. I won't dismiss it like you Islamists do when faced with uncomfortable facts.

The 1984 "riots" were a blot and a one off in centuries of harmonious and brotherly relations between Hindus and Sikhs. They were politically motivated and all of us deeply regret it and are sorry for what happened.

There has not been a single incident like this, either before or after. The Sikh contributions to the country remain strong and they are present in all parts of the country and all walks of life.

Even our PM is a Sikh now.

Of course, your deluded self will chose to focus only on those decades old "riots" when most of us were not even born.

Now coming to the 2002 "pogrom" and the Godhra train burning that triggered it. Both incidents were horrible and there was a failure of state machinery, perhaps some local political involvement.

Regrettable, but we have moved on. No major riots for a decade after that, substantially reduced communal temperature, both communities looking at the future of economic possibilities and a more secure future.

Now come to your own track record. No minority Muslim sects are safe. Thousand of Shia killed (5600 was the last I read few years back), Pushtuns killed in hundreds randomly in Karachi with state support, Ahmedia being persecuted with state support, blasphemy laws being misused, human slavery still in place, no land reforms, the 22 families (?) controlling the country, a country for the army, spewing terror all over the neighborhood if not al over the world.

You really presume you are in any position to play moral posturing?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Do you ask your Chinese brethren the same question?

He can ask us, and I'm sure he already knows what the answer will be.

China's national policies are driven by pure national interest. I mean look at the enormous trading relationship between China and Japan, pragmatism over-rules historical greviances.

In this particular case, China gets technology from Israel that might be harder to get directly from other Western nations.

Bottom line though: China needs resources. The Islamic world is a million times more important than Israel in this regard.

 

[toxic_pus]

He can ask us, and I'm sure he already knows what the answer will be.

China's national policies are driven by pure national interest. I mean look at the enormous trading relationship between China and Japan, pragmatism over-rules historical greviances.

In this particular case, China gets technology from Israel that might be harder to get directly from other Western nations.

Bottom line though: China needs resources. The Islamic world is a million times more important than Israel in this regard.

Exactly. National Interest. Everything else is just couch-commandeering.

Even the Chinese love for Islamic world is for the resources that they happen to control. Again national interest. Not some emotional mumbo-jumbo.

Isn't that the point we are all trying to make?

 

[Vinod2070]

And how does that excuse what Israel is doing? Oh right, it doesn't.

See, apologists like you would have done business with apartheid-era South Africa because, by gosh, black tribes in Africa do far worse to each other.

It only exposes your excuse of hating them for "discriminating on the basis of religion".

BTW, are you now comparing your Islamic countries to "black tribes in Africa doing far worse to each other"? Not the final and perfect ones dishing out the perfect divine treatment to the minorities?

The Dhimmi contract?

It doesn't mean herding them into enclaves and refugee camps, if that's what you mean.
It doesn't mean state-sanctioned massacres like 1984 anti-Sikh and 2002 anti-Muslim pogroms.

And so it is acceptable? So it doesn't meet your criteria of "discriminating on the basis of religion" that you claimed was the reason for your despising Israel and considering India joining some "anti Islam" alliace with them?

Again, the vast majority of Pakistan's Hindus were in East Pakistan, where they still remain.

I know you are always economical with facts. Part of your Madressa training and the mental makeup it produced.

Let me know what was the percentage of Hindus and Sikhs in West Pakistan before the partition ethnic cleansing there? What was it afterwards? What was their contribution to the economy and culture of the place that was always theirs and was taken from them in the culmination of the brutal invasions?

The remaining minorities remain and flourish, despite occasional incidents. Certainly we haven't had anything on the scale of the 1984 or 2002 massacres in our eastern neighbor.

I do wish you flourish the same way as minorities in Pakistan, despite "occasional incidents"! May be all your Pakistanis is the West and other kaffir countries want to flourish the same way despite "occasional incidents"?

This is where the hypocrisy, double standards and that filter come in and you stand totally exposed as bereft of any moral compunctions.

Two perfectly fine legs. And you are welcome to browse the 9/11 threads to educate yourself about the issues raised by the official 9/11 Commission.

Get off your high horse again. You are making a spectacle of yourself with the explosive combination of "arrogance with ignorance" coupled with Islamist conspiracy theories.

Of course, given your inability to grapple with basic logic, math, history and geopolitics, it's a sure bet that you will have scant understanding of what is being discussed, but you can always bring it up as a diversionary tactic when flailing about for an escape.

I am amused by several of you Pakistanis throwing up the names of random subjects! Met some earlier as well who do the same thing.

Do you think it makes you look smarter or something?

It only shows ignorance of someone who knows little. Only those kind need to show off like this.

What was the last point where you got thrashed and then ran off into this particular diversion? Oh yes, Kargil.

Oh, the "high altitude" plane one! :rofl"

So, a half page article in a blog that you twisted to your ends did it for you?

Oh, I'm enjoying it immensely. The self-professed Zionism expert who doesn't know about evangelical Christians....

Ignorants always enjoy themselves as they don't know what they don't know.

You are the self proclaimed "Zionism expert" who claimed something and now you can't prove it with a credible link. So you just want to pass it off as "self evident" truth.

But I know why you Islamists behave this way. I do know.

More rwisting and turning. You said "the Jews have been there for 100 years", which is a meaningless statement since there were always some Jews in Palestine. But the full scale migration didn't start until the 1920s and really until after 1948.

Leave it now. Don't bring in new words.

When I said why should Palestinians pay the price for the Romans' crimes, you said because they were evicted from Palestine. So, once again, why should Palestinian Arabs have to leave their homes because of what the Romans did 2000 years ago?

They should not. So I think a two state solution makes eminent sense as the only practical solution.

Pakistan is an Islamic country, so when we say Israel is against Muslim countries, it includes Pakistan.
It's really not that complicated: you will get it eventually if you concentrate.

But it is not. Show me what Israel has done against Pakistan? And please no conspiracy theories.

Also, anyone being against an individual or some Muslim countries does not automatically become "anti-Islam".

Would you also say that all the various failings of Pakistan are also the failings of Islam if you are equating the two?

It's really not that complicated: you will get it eventually if you concentrate.

Uh huh. You know better than the air marshall, I'm sure.

Yup. Them's the ones.
That you denied and were corrected by me. Oops...

So a blog claim is all you have? Heard of inter service rivalry?

It is common knowledge that IAF found several shortcomings in their arsnel during the Kargil and that led to a review of what equipment were needed by India. No on one considers IAF role as the most critical during Kargil, it was just supporting the IA.

Let's review:

OK.

You didn't know the real reasons behind Turkey's relationship with Israel.

I didn't assume anything other than their perceive self interest. It is you who presumed to justify it. Your delusion and lack of objectivity doesn't let you see even straight facts.

BTW, you first claimed that Islamic countries don't have military relationship with Israel, when exposed and told about the $50 billion deals, you backtracked and said that Turkey buys stuff from Israel, when told that India does the same, you ran off.

Then you tried to justify it by bringing in some meaningless justification as if that would take away from what you claimed can only be an "anti-Islam" relationship.

You didn't know about the overwhelming public antipathy towards Israel in Egypt and other countries that are 'friendly' to Israel.

Mr. "know it all", show me when I said anything on this. I said these countries maintain relationship in their own interest and it is not my fault that they don't fight it out with a nuclear power so that you can watch it vicariously from the sidelines and a very safe distance.

You didn't know about Israel's help to India during Kargil.

Again, a pathetic lie. I knew about the help. I think it was very helpful.

I also know that the Pakistani intruders would have been kicked anyway.

Were already capturing peaks before the air warfare started and by all accounts it was only marginally effective.

You were exposed by showing how your PM and military secretary and senior people acknowledge that USA saved your arse there. Something most of you even now deny.

You didn't know the fundamental difference between Uighur situation and Palestinian situation.

Again a takiyya. Where did I even comment about Uighurs?

Anyway, the difference has more to do with your mental conditioning than anything else.

You didn't know the reasons for China's relationship with Israel.

This is getting seriously embarrassing. I didn't even bring in the reasons. You did.

You didn't know about the rampant anti-Arab discrimination in Israel, as acknowledged by their High Court.

Again a lie. I only said that your own country and many Islamic countries are worse and don't even have a semblance of legal equality.

It was just to expose that your hatred had anything to do with "discrimination on the basis of religion".

You didn't know about the pattern of Jewish migration into Israel.

Only in your dreams.

You didn't know basic logic that the premise 'All A are B' doesn't imply 'All B are A'

Only in your dreams.

I know, the only logic taught to you in Madressas is rhetoric.

You didn;t know the role of evangelical Christians in Zionism.

Lol, seriously funny.

This is just off the top of my head. You keep bringing in ridiculous diversions every time you are thrashed.

Lol. It is you have been exposed and thrashed. A laundry list doesn't clean up that dirt.

The latest attempt is school curricula, neocons and 9/11.
As if they have anything to do with the topic.

They have to do with exposing the rationale that you are bringing to the debate.

 

[xMustiiej70]

this is so pathetic at so many ways..
india licking jewish for so long..
i just dont understand why a 1.4b populated country wants such good relation with a 7m populated state..
why not have these relation with african countries?
its just showing how pathetic indian goverment is.
and all the followers on this website.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Exactly. National Interest. Everything else is just couch-commandeering.

Even the Chinese love for Islamic world is for the resources that they happen to control. Again national interest. Not some emotional mumbo-jumbo.

Isn't that the point we are all trying to make?

I don't know, if Developereo says that there is some sort of emotional connection to the Palestinian people, then I see no reason to doubt him.

Just as I would feel bad if I saw overseas Chinese communities being attacked (in South East Asia for example)... I would imagine that Muslims would also, feel a similar sort of brotherhood to each other.

Or perhaps empathize with them to a greater degree.