Steady progress in building ASEAN Economic Community

[Aepsilons]

You must realize the Muslim world is against Israel right? This is another example that you don't get to choose. Your action will lead to some resentment elsewhere. This is why it is extremely difficult to have an effective alliance without a CLEAR cut leader with a CLEAR GOAL and STRATEGY. If you are non-interventionist, don't bother making alliance. It will never work. Alliance intend for interventionism..

My friend, China and Israel , also, have military tech transfers and trade on a close bilateral relationship. That does not mean China's diplomatic stance in the Middle East or Saharan and Subsaharan Africa is affected drastically. Of course not, why, quite the opposite, China is in close cooperation with GCC nations such as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. This is merely part of the Art of Statecraft.

I reiterate, a R&D partnership and military research relationship does not predispose to alliance. My case point is China's rather buoyant relationship with Israel.


Best,
@Nihonjin1051

 

[xunzi]

@xunzi ,

I think you need to research a bit more the political discourse between Bangladesh and India. These two nations, recently settled their maritime differences, wherein Bangladesh was awarded. The resolution ended a 40-year-old dispute, a United Nations tribunal delivered its verdict on Tuesday on India and Bangladesh's maritime boundaries in the Bay of Bengal, awarding nearly four-fifth of the 25,000 sq km of the exclusive economic zone to Bangladesh.

The verdict, binding on both countries, opens the way for Bangladesh to explore for oil and gas in the Bay of Bengal, and ends a dispute over a sea border with India that has ruffled ties between the nations.

This effectively establishes maritime boundaries between India and Bangladesh, as well as secures the Bangladeshi Navy's area of operations. Bangladesh, has been a core player for South East Asia, being the fact that it shares a large land and maritime boundary with Myanmar.

Bangladesh would benefit from its integration in this alliance because : 1) It would pave the way to a Free Trade Agreement, 2) Investments into infrastructure projects such as electrical grid, nuclear power, possibility of building a deep sea port in Sonidia Island. Bangladesh, as a largely peaceful nation, and one with a large population, will benefit in a FTA, and technology trade. Also, As a Muslim country, and relatively peaceful, it will open the mindsets of peaceful integration with Muslim core nations.

The issue with BD and India is beyond territorial dispute. It's more cultural and religious. You can ask any Indian in here if they are okay with anyone taking BD out of their hand.

 

[Genesis]

@kalu_miah @Nihonjin1051

How would you guys feel if I said Japan and Korea is not strong enough to lead a coalition as effectively as the US?

Japan is technologically advanced, but it's Aegis ships are actually few in numbers, most Japanese DDGs are just somewhat better than the DDGs pre-052C.

Japanese LHD is the major threat, but in terms of landing operations, our LPDs are way better, I have heard Japan looking into this type of ship, but haven't heard more.

We will go for a 6 LPD +6 LHD configuration by 2025 more or less, which should place us on some what of a equal footing, but Japan may have the advantage still in Helicopter tech.


If we can get SK to remain neutral which is highly likely, but better if we can get them to fight on our side, that would be awesome. In terms of trade, cash, political influence, and even NK, we can offer them a much bigger reward, than Japan can.


Without going too far into it, ASEAN navies are negligible at best, and doesn't come into this equation.



But as a disclaimer before some dude comes in here and accuse something, this is just for fun, consider it a fanfic.

 

[xunzi]

My friend, China and Israel , also, have military tech transfers and trade on a close bilateral relationship. That does not mean China's diplomatic stance in the Middle East or Saharan and Subsaharan Africa is affected drastically. Of course not, why, quite the opposite, China is in close cooperation with GCC nations such as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. This is merely part of the Art of Statecraft.

I reiterate, a R&D partnership and military research relationship does not predispose to alliance. My case point is China's rather buoyant relationship with Israel.


Best,
@Nihonjin1051

We did it mostly in secret and without making clear distinction on the Palestinian issue. That's why our Muslim friends accept it. Had it not for that, they will not be please with it.

 

[kalu_miah]

It is a crack in that you have the ultimate different value than what Japan envision in the alliance. You only think it will be smooth sailing alliance where everyone is happily living together except until their house got burn. Nobody comes to the rescue. India will not give up a fight against Japan if they interfering in their political sphere. So say what you might, Japan will be put to the test facing against the big boy of the world.

Everyone knows the Vietnamese claim our territories. By letting them join, we will feel threaten by this collective self defense. You have to understand our position and respect our national interest. Like Russia have demonstrated, when you mess with Russia core interest, Russia will not walk away without a fight.

It is natural to have different values between individuals with different backgrounds. But the key is to unite for a common cause, which is we are smaller nations and we need to team up to make a greater team to gain competitive edge and face threats we cannot face by ourselves.

The goal of creating an alliance is to become a big boy, so I don't see why Japan or any other elected leader, cannot act as a big boy with other big boys of the world, on behalf of all the small boy members in the alliance.

I am glad that you frankly tell us that you feel threatened by this move. I like your honesty.

Alliance formation is not against international law, there is already precedence, so I am not sure what China can do to prevent it.

 

[Aepsilons]

The issue with BD and India is beyond territorial dispute. It's more cultural and religious. You can ask any Indian in here if they are okay with anyone taking BD out of their hand.

Bangladesh is an independent and sovereign nation. She has the right, to conjecture her own manifest destiny. Now, this manifest destiny does not necessarily have to be one that will clash with India. India has shown , through its abiding of UN Arbitration, that it would respect Bangladesh's national territoriality.

We did it mostly in secret and without making clear distinction on the Palestinian issue. That's why our Muslim friends accept it. Had it not for that, they will not be please with it.

It's not secret at all, actually. It has been quite "open" in the international arena. Yet, despite this, diplomacy amongst partners is retained. So, i would conjecture, why would it be different with Japan?

After all, Japan has invested billions of dollars in the Middle East , Africa, South Asia and South East Asia -- in infrastructure. There is no reason why they would have to fear us or even consider us a threat. Our vested interests are ingrained with them.

 

[xunzi]

It is natural to have different values between individuals with different backgrounds. But the key is to unite for a common cause, which is we are smaller nations and we need to team up to make a greater team to gain competitive edge and face threats we cannot face by ourselves.

The goal of creating an alliance is to become a big boy, so I don't see why Japan or any other elected leader, cannot act as a big boy with other big boys of the world, on behalf of all the small boy members in the alliance.

I am glad that you frankly tell us that you feel threatened by this move. I like your honesty.

Alliance formation is not against international law, there is already precedence, so I am not sure what China can do to prevent it.

Then I have a question for you. Why don't you team up with the real big boy if you fear so much threat from others?

It is not effective to have tiny bit of states with different value, culture, and national goal to achieve unitary, singularity, and uniformity like a real big boy. It's just not effective.

I doubt we will sit there and let things happen. For example, we can create our own alliance to counter its threat. We can divert our resources to target this alliance instead of focusing on the US. We might even allied with the US/Russia to block this potential new alliance that challenge the real big boy global game. I think everyone needs to accept the fact that there are only 3 or 4 real big boys in this world and these big boys will not accept anyone challenging their power and knock on their exclusive club. That's just my opinion.

Bangladesh is an independent and sovereign nation. She has the right, to conjecture her own manifest destiny. Now, this manifest destiny does not necessarily have to be one that will clash with India. India has shown , through its abiding of UN Arbitration, that it would respect Bangladesh's national territoriality.

LOL I think we need our Indian friends to talk in here.

 

[Aepsilons]

Then I have a question for you. Why don't you team up with the real big boy if you fear so much threat from others?



LOL I think we need our Indian friends to talk in here.

My dear friend,


It matters not what Indian posters of PDF say, the Government of India has already accepted to abide and respect the UN Arbitration's ruling.

 

[xunzi]

It's not secret at all, actually. It has been quite "open" in the international arena. Yet, despite this, diplomacy amongst partners is retained. So, i would conjecture, why would it be different with Japan?

After all, Japan has invested billions of dollars in the Middle East , Africa, South Asia and South East Asia -- in infrastructure. There is no reason why they would have to fear us or even consider us a threat. Our vested interests are ingrained with them.

It is really depend how involved you are in the Muslim issue. It goes both ways. Your investment means nothing in the realm of political interest among various actors. The moment you show sign of favoritism, you will receive resentment. Japan is shield by the US. Now that you reign free and going outside, just be careful. LOL

My dear friend,


It matters not what Indian posters of PDF say, the Government of India has already accepted to abide and respect the UN Arbitration's ruling.

Ask the Indian govt if they are willing to stick their nose and hand out of BD politics. LOL

 

[Aepsilons]

I fear our trajectory has swayed too much away from the main subject matter. Let's realign ourselves.

 

[Jlaw]

South Korea initially will not join. Only Japan can make this project happen. If Japan starts then Koreans will automatically follow, they will not have a choice. Don't ask me how I know this, lets just say that some really nationalistic Korean told me that.

Creating mutual defense treaty does not mean going to war, it is working to minimize threat and the chance of war. If you have no objection to US bases in Japan and Korea, why should you worry about additional alliances?

No one is leading against China, we are talking about mutual defensive alliance. Sovereign countries can and will take decisions to ensure their own security.

If a military alliance is created, if one of the alliance country goes to war, that should mean the other countries have to follow.

We are a martial race, and only want to defend our territory and art of living against aggressors. Sometimes we did not kill our enemies but just chopped up an arm and leg. Nobody can impose their will on us as we will fight until the bitter end. No matter the cost.

No, Indonesia is a nobody in Asean, in the region and the world.

Chinese were right, that's why we called you barbarians, turn over spine boy among other things.

 

[kalu_miah]

Then I have a question for you. Why don't you team up with the real big boy if you fear so much threat from others?

It is not effective to have tiny bit of states with different value, culture, and national goal to achieve unitary, singularity, and uniformity like a real big boy. It's just not effective.

I doubt we will sit there and let things happen. For example, we can create our own alliance to counter its threat. We can divert our resources to target this alliance instead of focusing on the US. We might even allied with the US/Russia to block this potential new alliance that challenge the real big boy global game. I think everyone needs to accept the fact that there are only 3 or 4 real big boys in this world and these big boys will not accept anyone challenging their power and knock on their exclusive club. That's just my opinion.

LOL I think we need our Indian friends to talk in here.

If I may interject, why do you think the US would come to your rescue for any threat you face? Isn't that exactly the opposite situation now?

 

[Aepsilons]

If I may interject, why do you think the US would come to your rescue for any threat you face? Isn't that exactly the opposite situation now?

I would even add, considering the constraints the United States is facing, namely the cost of maintaining its military projection, it has resorted to allowing partners to have greater role in the balancing and maintenance of peace in Asia-Pacific. I mean, even in the latest article by the US Navy, stating the status of some 20 USN cruisers , due to the cost of maintenance.

Taking this into consideration, the United States, and the extension of American military power, the United States Pacific Command, has thus ascertained to the increased role of the Japanese Self Defense Force, particularly the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force. One example of this coordination , and increased role would be the JS Kunisaki, part of the JMSDF's South Fleet Command Ships, but has regularly taken joint inter-operability exercises with not only the United States 7th Fleet, but even the Indian Navy's Eastern Fleet, and with the Australian Navy in RIMPAC, Exercise Malabar and Pacific Partnership, respectively.

I am sure, that , in the best interest of regional harmony and trade, the United States would be keen in seeing the development of military alliance between several nations in East Asia , South East Asia and even in South Asia. The current example of military partnership between Japan and Australia, as well as Japan and the Philippines could be framework for a greater and more dynamic regional security system set in place. I do not see why the United States would be opposed to this, since the objecive of this alliance system would be to maintain regional stability and to prevent any provocative action of hegemony.

Thus i remain quite optimistic for the future, my dear and beloved friends.



Regards,
@Nihonjin1051

 

[NiceGuy]

On one hand you want eventual interventionist policy in the alliance but on the other hand our Japanese friend @Nihonjin1051 said he don't foresee Japan engaged in interventionism. So I see some crack already. This is why it is good in theory only. It is not practical. Too many states having different viewpoint and value. But if you plan to make alliance, make sure don't let the little Vietnamese join. They are rat that will destroy any alliance prosperity. LOL

VN have a special location, we r in the middle of ASEAN region, and for an alliance from BD to JP, we r also in the middle. We also control the important sea lane in SCS(east sea) that we fought hard and took it back from US.

Bad thing to VN is that bcz of our special location, we r also is the center of serious conflict between China and US . If we side with China, then US will sanction VN. If we side with US, then China will keep harassing VN harder .

So, the only choice for VN to keep our independence is to unite the sub-Mekong region (VN-Laos-Camb-Thai-Myanmar) at all cost to become stronger. Soviet supported our plan, but they r gone. SO, we have to find out the new way to unite that region first, then we will think abt an alliance with other nations after that

For now, we just try to keep balance the relationship with US-China and try to gain more support from other nation .

 

[Cossack25A1]

I don't know if the Philippines can contribute in the field of security as at present, the PH Military is only suitable at keeping communist and Islamic insurgents at bay but in other fields, I doubt it.