Split Discussion: Muhajir Identity

[Chak Bamu]

@haviZsultan, the points you've raised a well-noted.

Identity is a complicated matter. If I were living in (say) Poland, it would be very easy. Ethnicity, language, Nationality, would be very uncomplicated. Things are not quite so easy for us in Pakistan. The issues of identity that you raise are important indeed.

Identity is based on feelings, not papers. If a set of people wishes to call themselves 'Mohajir' then we have to accept that without worrying about semantics. In my first post I noted that there is a perceived need for such an identity. You wish to point out the reality, but perception trumps reality whether we like it or not. Let us consider the following labels (no offence to anyone):

a. Mohajir - you have pointed out what is wrong with it.
b. Urdu-speakers - We all are to one extent or another. And yet we have Bengalis, Madrasis, Keralites (?), etc...
c. Bhai log - Any bit of head scratching does not help here. What could it mean?
d. Non-Punjabi Immigrants - While quite accurate, it does define a group of people in a negative manner. Nothing positive here.
e. Karachiites - What do you call people of similar back-ground from Hyderabad and other places in Sindh?
f. Haq-Parast - What are others then? Very annoying.

You do a good job to point out what is wrong with the term 'Mohajir' and how it is misused by MQM and its supporters. But what alternative is there? 'Urdu-speaking' perhaps, but then there are problems with this too. If we ask the people concerned to give up their identity for the sake of Pakistan, then what can we realistically expect from them?

It is no easy matter; especially when a number of people identify themselves positively as Punjabi, Pashtun, Baloch, Sindhi. What do they do if not adopt a term coined for themselves that gives them a bit of a positive idea of themselves. I differ with you when you say that Mohajir is a derogatory term. It is not used or intended as such by people who choose to call themselves Mohajir. Ask any psychologist how comforting and liberating is a sense of being a victim which this term evokes. Consider the religious meaning as well, which gives it a positive spin (Oh the irony of a secular party using and abusing this term). I see hardly any escape from it. Some people using this term would always feel themselves to be a victim even after 50 years. Some people would adopt this term in a high and glorified religious sense and feel entitled to a certain sense of moral superiority. And then, most importantly, some people would be desensitized entirely and use it as just a positive way of identifying themselves. When this happens, Altaf would be long dead, MQM would have splintered into a dozen factions, and Mohajirs (AHEM) would welcome other political players who might be better suited to represent them in a vast metropolis where they would hardly command a majority. Rest assured, we shall all still very much be Pakistanis.

Your over-riding concern shall have been transitory. Issue of identity would no longer exert the same emotional push or pull.

My personal gripe with this whole thing is a feeling of having been let down by people I respected very much and held in high esteem. Now I smile at my simplicity when growing up as a kid and struggling with learning two languages (English by far being the harder), I idolized people who spoke Urdu as a mother language. People are people, no better no worse. They just have different preoccupations and POVs. If someone looks down at my being a Punjabi in today's Pakistan, I can guess why they claim superiority and be able to coolly tell them how they are no better. Big deal. Like @Armstrong said, Punjabis are cool in this way. It is not terribly important how they are seen by others, they would rather be 'Haal-Must'. The issue of whether or not Urdu-speaking people feel superior, or what names they might call my ethnicity is a total non-starter and almost irrelevant as far as I am concerned. For Pashtuns it might be different, but I am not bothered one bit by it. MQM's shenanigans and 'Mohajir' support for them has robbed Urdu-speakers at large of any moral superiority they might wish to assume. Like I said: people are people, no better not worse, just different...

 

[Chak Bamu]

Just a clarification: If anyone goes to see my background from Introduction thread, they would know that my parents hail from Jullundhar, East Punjab. For them walking and surviving to reach Pakistan was by far the hard part. My mother lived at the famous Walton refugee camp, and my father simply kept on walking with his Parents til they reached Toba Tek Singh. They had relatives there.

See, when British turned their attention to the vast barren and uncultivated tracts of land in Central and West Punjab, they realized the solution to the problem of feeding India. When these huge territories were brought under cultivation during the latter part of 19th century, they allotted lands to people from East Punjab, since the indigenous people lacked the crucial farming skills. Thus most Punjabi refugees from East Punjab had someone or the other they knew in and around Lyallpur (Faisalabad), Toba, Sahiwal, etc... In many cases they did not have to think about any need to change their diction even. To this day, I speak Jullundhari Punjabi at home albeit with a Lahori accent.

The point I am trying to make is that while my parents were able to seemlessly adjust in their new environment, Urdu speakers had a more difficult challenge to surmount. And surmount they did with the willing help of locals, especially Sindhis. There is a double irony in this if someone cares to notice.

 

[haviZsultan]

I got all this info from websites(obviously i'm not old enough to witness what happened in 60's, 70's or 80's or even 90's when i was kid) & no alhamdolillah my parents & grandparents are patriot & only teach me to love Pakistan. Even my grand ma used to tell me stories how Pathans & Balochs fought to save immigrants(migrating from india to Pakistan) from indian(no offense) exteremist.

And surely they were MQM sources.
That is one issue of relying on the internet.

I am in Karachi right now and can tell you I have seen every kind of abuse, insult and disprespect being done to people of different ethnicities here, some from my own family. No one has ever called me that. In Canada I heard someone called an MQM guy bhai log and he was slapped showing the average mentality of one of their thugs.

Your grandma was a very nice person. I have never seen a single person in my khandaan who respects non-muhajirs however, very sorry to say. I am not casting doubt on your love for Pakistan, American Pakistani I am casting doubt on Altaf's love for it. Even my relatives never say anything anti-pakistani barring one exception of an idiot in Canada. But somehow they can support the speech on partition.

@haviZsultan i agree MQM may have bad apples but projecting them as devil is what is unacceptable. People bring their nonsense & talk as if they know alot & only MQM is the reason of all problems in Karachi or Pakistan.

Its a political party... anything that puts itself in the public is bound to be questioned and criticized. Every party is criticized. Sharing their views now are a crime? MQM is not a divine entity.

I really suggest you re-consider your views about this party especially since you are living abroad because we cannot afford to be a part of the issue. Altaf called partition a mistake. His speech can easily be found on youtube.

If you still hold positive views about the MQM it is totally your personal choice.

@haviZsultan I will try to answer all your posts once I get some time , I am too busy at the moment because its the first week of the new semester at University and believe me these first few days are pretty intensive because of new subjects , their demands and the fresh environment and also due to the manufacturing project I am working on ...

Secur I tried to reply to all posts on another very anti-Pakistani forum and believe me my head became a cuckoo clock. It was like I was on rufies man... someone told me to sit, I sat, eat I ate... I lost my head and was like totally depressed. It was like a storm of comments calling Jinnah despicable names and Pakistan horrible things and that played a role too. But Secur, me personally my life is behind a computer screen for various reasons. I am not really going out, can't actually much but you have a life outside the internet or the pc so don't do that as it can be really stressful, especially with so many posts. Also we largely agree on many things.

However you can find the posts in which you are most interested and reply if you wish it.
Always behind you brother.

Rest assured I am following as always !

You can agree with my views as you do mine (And I would like to add that I am deeply impressed by your posts and you will find in me support for anything you do which is positive for Pakistan) but I do not want any followers. As other Nationalist leaders said it do not follow any person other than Jinnah and always love your country... that is usually enough.

Any leader who comes after Jinnah is a mere nobody. I'm pretty sick anyway and I am not in contact with almost all my followers. Don't even know if they stand by my views or just disbanded, many of them do feel let down by me though... (As I said I led the Canada chapter of a Nationalist organization in the past) so take that as one reason for not being attracted to other leaders or in this case a mere somebody of the net.

But I guess you and many more like you are this country's future. You can save it.

P.S. I have received an offer to become Jr think tank... thought about it a little and accepted. I hope you got this offer too?

 

[American Pakistani]

And surely they were MQM sources.
That is one issue of relying on the internet.

Well i can't say but i can surely say that on youtube they aren't MQM guys who still use these derogatory names cuz they speaking in their language too. I'm not saying all of them are like this but few does. In this same forum you can see few members are kindda rude & have insulting behaviour towards Muhajirs.

I really suggest you re-consider your views about this party especially since you are living abroad because we cannot afford to be a part of the issue. Altaf called partition a mistake. His speech can easily be found on youtube.

If you still hold positive views about the MQM it is totally your personal choice.

Supporting MQM is not supporting only Altaf. I support MQM cuz of their hard work in Karachi, their support to middleclass families, their ideas & plannings, their energy to develop the city & country, etc. altaf speech was condemned by many in Karachi & even in his own party that's why he present clarification speech too. And why only give importance to altaf speech when zulfiqar mirza of ppp in his speech said that he would've annonce the separation of Sind after Benazeer death if zardari would'nt had stop him to & ANP guys who support bacha khan, a man who called Pakistan 'qabristan'.

This is the support MQM leaders recieve even in universities,

For more info, here is full video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JjuLUY53rE

P.S you didn't answere my post # 131.

 

[RescueRanger]

Speaking of Fauzia Wahab... I know she is deceased and we should not speak ill of her, but she was one of the most ill informed and ill mannered people i had the displeasure of coming across. Her idea of a debate was shouting over the other person or resorting to petty personal attacks.

The video is a perfect example of this stupid mentality, for all his faults Mustafa Kamal was not a saint, but he implemented some excellent projects such as I own Karachi, community policing unit and Command & Control Center. A very down to earth and professional chap.

Being shortlisted for World Mayor Award 2010 is not an achievement to be sniffed at... He has my deepest respects.

 

[Dance]

Let me re-iterate. There was no Balochistan problem BEFORE Musharraf.

There was a military operation in Balochistan in the 1970's due to this: Balochistan Insurgency

1970s Operation in Balochistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can't blame Musharraf for something that was already there.

 

[Mian H Amin.]

well i Am a PAKISTANI. lemi tell you one thing, getting british nationality and surrender Pak pasport isnt the only way to live in britain, if one want to keep his green pasport and settle in britain he can got for "settlement" catagory aswell. so Allhumdulihla i born as Pakistan still have green passport and will die as a Pakistan
2nd, muhajir isnt a nation , it exist no where in the world. you quoted your indan punjabi frinds living in banglore, i have a friend who migrated from gujrat to karachi but he calls himself GUJRATI not muhajir which is a proper word and ethnicity sir.

 

[Chak Bamu]

There was a military operation in Balochistan in the 1970's due to this: Balochistan Insurgency

1970s Operation in Balochistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can't blame Musharraf for something that was already there.

I will not go off onto a tangent here. Better stick with the topic. If you still want to debate (not discuss - there is nothing to discuss), go ahead find a related thread and bring it to my notice and I shall be happy to oblige. I have already gone through a bit of this with darkinsky and I would not entertain another derailing of this thread. Just a suggestion: read a lot before you open this up again.

 

[Dance]

I will not go off onto a tangent here. Better stick with the topic. If you still want to debate (not discuss - there is nothing to discuss), go ahead find a related thread and bring it to my notice and I shall be happy to oblige. I have already gone through a bit of this with darkinsky and I would not entertain another derailing of this thread. Just a suggestion: read a lot before you open this up again.

I did read and I could find no evidence to back up your statements such as:

Balochistan was peaceful before Musharraf

Anyways I won't "derail" the thread any further

 

[haviZsultan]

First of all @Chak Bamu, @batmannow and @Raja.Pakistani... I would like to thank you deeply. What I have basically noticed in this case is that all of you have come to the defense of what is another ethnic group. With this debate this is one of the things I wanted to jump-start. Here instead of this there are insults passed around to our blood brothers within our own community.

I thank you deeply. @Chak Bamu I would like to reply to you in intricate detail as your posts again are brilliant. I understand you @batmannow and a lot of other peoples concerns and how you are trying to nobly defend an ethnic group. If you basically say that Muhajirs shouldn't exist or support me in my claim that it is no real ethnic identity on account of your ethnic identity you may be referred to as a racist by the rest of these people. But do note that this is from a Muhajir by birth who is adopting Pashtun identity barely for the past 2 years. That Muhajir birth and the imposition of that identity at birth gives me reason and a right to condemn it. Please let me do so. Batman you said they have a right to exist, true. I am not taking it from them (how can you in a minor debate?) but this term is controversial and there are a number of people forced to accept this identity because they were just called that.

I will answer your post in detail soon Chak Bamu but @truthseer's post has been waiting for a while. I believe it would actually be a concluding post that should come last because from the stage of pointing out the issues prevalent and the falsity of a common Muhajir culture, history or language we are moving towards what may be done to solve the issue. However in it I will cover why I state the particular solutions I suggest. Do hold on. Response to your post next truthseer.

As far as you are concerned Chak Bamu you even give me the tools to challenge the right of Muhajirs to exist in the current form with a number of your own comments in the posts (I believe it is on purpose... ) and you want the debate to continue though disengaging yourself from making any statement that challenges the term Muhajir, leaving that to Nationalists like me to challenge. I don't know how I missed this out Chak Bamu in your previous post to which I replied but you said Punjabis played a role in increasing tensions. No need to be so self-critical because the issues in every community are of its own making-blaming and denying as darkinsky has regularly done go nowhere and are tools of the chauvinists so I will continue arguing against this identity.

The issue with each community or ethnic group can usually be found in its own attitudes and in its own mistakes. It is useless to blame someone else. Your analysis and that of a lot of others may perhaps be more neutral or sympathetic towards so-called Muhajirs but as far as I am concerned for many years this identity has been imposed on me and I have been forced to look at everything through the curtain of Muhajir much of my life. I believe it is my fundamental right to question the identity that my relatives and family members want me to maintain even though I refuse to maintain it and proudly call myself Pashtun... you may call this identity crisis and even I think this could be something similar but I will look into the reasons later on. Also Chak Bamu you said you would expand on this later if needed, on how Punjabis have played a role. Please don't. Every Urdu speaker can pull the victim card and shift blame. But I want challenge this ancient tradition. This cannot be shoved onto the lap of Punjabis or Pashtuns or anyone else. But chak bamu you deserve many thanks as this is how such a debate should be. We are defending the others ethnic group (mine of birth but not choice-again) and perhaps this is all that is needed... understanding for each other.

I wanted my people to feel a pang of hurt or pain when an ethnic group that resides with them within the boundaries of Pakistan is actually attacked because ultimately all of us are Pakistani and the various cultures existent here make it rich. Instead I have been watching how quickly such debates turn into slandering competitions.

I also thought this thread was actually dying and we were reaching the conclusion of this debate. Then there has been a flurry of new responses. I appreciate everyone who has participated here and the addition of posts from think tanks is highly commendable as it makes this debate rich. Do share your views @RescueRanger and I hope you do not consider me a very confused wannabe Pashtun, here. Rest assured a person who studies half of Pashtun culture and history cannot help but be impressed but someone who spends hours poring over history, culture and making efforts to learn the language may and will eventually make an effort to merge with these beautiful people. Perhaps that may also make the statement of how transitory or fluid ideas of race are as it is changing all the time with the settlement of one people in another land or one people adopting another culture.

Personally what I want to discuss is Muhajir identity rather than the MQM. Luckily I have passed that stage and revealed that it is not a really good thing to support these people, rest is their choice. I haven't gained proper replies I feel from 2 members here who are avoiding almost every point raised in my analysis in their support for this party or insecurity but perhaps such questioning of Muhajir identity and that also by one of Muhajir birth is new to them. The core idea behind MQM is how Muhajir identity is currently defined itself and nationalism along the lines of this identity. I believe this may be futile as they will constantly feel like either victims or shift responsibility. I will continue the debate with others here.

Before anyone new comments here I would like you to read post 1 and post 5 though this is such a great debate on Muhajir identity that every post here holds some value. In the end Pakistan is all that matters and that is our real identity... that is to be kept in mind all the time I believe.

 

[batmannow]

First of all @Chak Bamu, @batmannow and @Raja.Pakistani... I would like to thank you deeply. What I have basically noticed in this case is that all of you have come to the defense of what is another ethnic group. With this debate this is one of the things I wanted to jump-start. Here instead of this there are insults passed around to our blood brothers within our own community.

I thank you deeply. @Chak Bamu I would like to reply to you in intricate detail as your posts again are brilliant. I understand you @batmannow and a lot of other peoples concerns and how you are trying to nobly defend an ethnic group. If you basically say that Muhajirs shouldn't exist or support me in my claim that it is no real ethnic identity on account of your ethnic identity you may be referred to as a racist by the rest of these people. But do note that this is from a Muhajir by birth who is adopting Pashtun identity barely for the past 2 years. That Muhajir birth and the imposition of that identity at birth gives me reason and a right to condemn it. Please let me do so. Batman you said they have a right to exist, true. I am not taking it from them (how can you in a minor debate?) but this term is controversial and there are a number of people forced to accept this identity because they were just called that.

I will answer your post in detail soon Chak Bamu but @truthseer's post has been waiting for a while. I believe it would actually be a concluding post that should come last because from the stage of pointing out the issues prevalent and the falsity of a common Muhajir culture, history or language we are moving towards what may be done to solve the issue. However in it I will cover why I state the particular solutions I suggest. Do hold on. Response to your post next truthseer.

As far as you are concerned Chak Bamu you even give me the tools to challenge the right of Muhajirs to exist in the current form with a number of your own comments in the posts (I believe it is on purpose... ) and you want the debate to continue though disengaging yourself from making any statement that challenges the term Muhajir, leaving that to Nationalists like me to challenge. I don't know how I missed this out Chak Bamu in your previous post to which I replied but you said Punjabis played a role in increasing tensions. No need to be so self-critical because the issues in every community are of its own making-blaming and denying as darkinsky has regularly done go nowhere and are tools of the chauvinists so I will continue arguing against this identity.

The issue with each community or ethnic group can usually be found in its own attitudes and in its own mistakes. It is useless to blame someone else. Your analysis and that of a lot of others may perhaps be more neutral or sympathetic towards so-called Muhajirs but as far as I am concerned for many years this identity has been imposed on me and I have been forced to look at everything through the curtain of Muhajir much of my life. I believe it is my fundamental right to question the identity that my relatives and family members want me to maintain even though I refuse to maintain it and proudly call myself Pashtun... you may call this identity crisis and even I think this could be something similar but I will look into the reasons later on. Also Chak Bamu you said you would expand on this later if needed, on how Punjabis have played a role. Please don't. Every Urdu speaker can pull the victim card and shift blame. But I want challenge this ancient tradition. This cannot be shoved onto the lap of Punjabis or Pashtuns or anyone else. But chak bamu you deserve many thanks as this is how such a debate should be. We are defending the others ethnic group (mine of birth but not choice-again) and perhaps this is all that is needed... understanding for each other.

I wanted my people to feel a pang of hurt or pain when an ethnic group that resides with them within the boundaries of Pakistan is actually attacked because ultimately all of us are Pakistani and the various cultures existent here make it rich. Instead I have been watching how quickly such debates turn into slandering competitions.

I also thought this thread was actually dying and we were reaching the conclusion of this debate. Then there has been a flurry of new responses. I appreciate everyone who has participated here and the addition of posts from think tanks is highly commendable as it makes this debate rich. Do share your views @RescueRanger and I hope you do not consider me a very confused wannabe Pashtun, here. Rest assured a person who studies half of Pashtun culture and history cannot help but be impressed but someone who spends hours poring over history, culture and making efforts to learn the language may and will eventually make an effort to merge with these beautiful people. Perhaps that may also make the statement of how transitory or fluid ideas of race are as it is changing all the time with the settlement of one people in another land or one people adopting another culture.

Personally what I want to discuss is Muhajir identity rather than the MQM. Luckily I have passed that stage and revealed that it is not a really good thing to support these people, rest is their choice. I haven't gained proper replies I feel from 2 members here who are avoiding almost every point raised in my analysis in their support for this party or insecurity but perhaps such questioning of Muhajir identity and that also by one of Muhajir birth is new to them. The core idea behind MQM is how Muhajir identity is currently defined itself and nationalism along the lines of this identity. I believe this may be futile as they will constantly feel like either victims or shift responsibility. I will continue the debate with others here.

Before anyone new comments here I would like you to read post 1 and post 5 though this is such a great debate on Muhajir identity that every post here holds some value. In the end Pakistan is all that matters and that is our real identity... that is to be kept in mind all the time I believe.

you got all wrong friend!
what i allways push for is equality for every onre & it came since i am born in karachi & want to see my country my nation happy & united togather frever, & plz correct yourself opening of this thread itself was, full sign of defending an ethnic group.
BTW i am not a muhajir , i belong to NIAZI tribe from mianwali, but yes i am born in karachi?
surly this thread was not directed towards the days of great ANSAARS from medina & muhajirins of MECCA?

 

[haviZsultan]

well i Am a PAKISTANI. lemi tell you one thing, getting british nationality and surrender Pak pasport isnt the only way to live in britain, if one want to keep his green pasport and settle in britain he can got for "settlement" catagory aswell. so Allhumdulihla i born as Pakistan still have green passport and will die as a Pakistan
2nd, muhajir isnt a nation , it exist no where in the world. you quoted your indan punjabi frinds living in banglore, i have a friend who migrated from gujrat to karachi but he calls himself GUJRATI not muhajir which is a proper word and ethnicity sir.

I have been reiterating this time and time again but it appears to be beyond their understanding. The untruth of Muhajir identity is revealed over and over again.

I am deeply suspicious of how a Gujrati speaker and a Hyderabadi with the Deccanwala urdu accent and separate cultures can be included under one wider identity. As I have stated time and time again the cultures that migrants brought were vastly different as was their history and their languages. Yet the Muhajir label incorporates all of these disparate groups in one but how is it then our families and relatives look down their noses at non-muhajirs?

If it is possible for a Gujrati and Hyderabadi to unite under one label, never be racist to the other, respect the other and even strive to work for interests together even though there is no proof there are a lot of interests in common like for example a Gujrati may want to preserve Gujrati as a language but the same cannot be said about a Hyderabadi. In fact the Hyderabadi may feel insecure and sometimes even be harassed for the speaking style he brings with him.

So as I have stated when these races unite under one banner why should I not call @Chak Bamu or some other person from another ethnic group my brother and work with him to promote my interests? Is this fake identity and derogatory term vital towards our survival? I believe that the identity is being used for the means of this terrorist political group which has done great damage to the identity itself. This is why I challenge it.

For example a lot of non-muhajirs do not even know of the struggle for Muslim League and how homes of our family and many others were used by Pakistan movement leaders, the way migrants sacrificed houses, possessions and sold jewellery to make the trip to Pakistan. Often some feel all our family and others like them have done is turn the provincial capital into their playground and through means most brutal tried to maintain their stranglehold over Sindh. It is a very negative impression.

Also the failure of the identity is exposed on another front by @Chak Bamu. He is from Indian Punjab but he migrated too. He is a Muhajir too. But how did he integrate despite his accent being Jullundari? Wasn't everyone who migrated from parts that went to India supposed to be a Muhajir? So basically the failure of this identity is revealed right there.

P.S. My folks want me to take Canadian citizenship. I want to die only with the green passport in hand. Too Nationalist. :p

 

[haviZsultan]

you got all wrong friend!
what i allways push for is equality for every onre & it came since i am born in karachi & want to see my country my nation happy & united togather frever, & plz correct yourself opening of this thread itself was, full sign of defending an ethnic group.
BTW i am not a muhajir , i belong to NIAZI tribe from mianwali, but yes i am born in karachi?
surly this thread was not directed towards the days of great ANSAARS from medina & muhajirins of MECCA?

You are from Imran Khan's tribe, my brother and you elected Imran Khan even in 90's election... which saved PTI actually from totally being forgotten.

That city is the home of Namal University soon to be or already is Namal Education City.

Pashto ra zi? Na? I believe you may have lost Pashto. Please understand batman. I was born in this ethnic group, my entire family khandaan always consider themselves Muhajir, it is my right to challenge them... you don't know about me.

I was praising you for trying to defend a (so called-I maintain Muhajir is not an ethnic group <See post 5>) ethnic group in Pakistan, the muhajirs which is how it should be. But it seems my posts are a bit "incoherent" at times.

I respect your concerns. The reasons were to:

1) Challenge ethnic identity as a basis for politics.
2) Promote self-criticism amongst members of all ethnic groups.
3) By doing #2 promoting ethnic harmony and at the same time challenging the way ethnicity is taken so seriously.
4) Promoting debate on ethnicity-which according to reports has taken about 15,000 lives in Karachi since the 1970's. Yes this is a major National issue that cannot be ignored. PDF community understands this which is the reason behind the re-opening of this thread. On a forum built for debate
5) Challenging how ethnicity is taken too seriously in our country and at the same time advocating that the identity should not become a reason for a divide amongst various ethnic groups in Pakistan.
6) Advocating respect for all ethnic groups.
7) Calling for people to take a more self-critical approach when it comes to ethnic issues rather than shifting blame onto someone else (some other ethnic group) or playing the victim card.
8) With every ethnic group people are quick to point out bias and discrimination. If bias and discrimination is occuring against all races it means there is NONE. If it is to one these claims need to be looked at. But it has become a culture here. This is why I challenge my community of birth when they make these claims.

The bold part. That is what I want AS WELL. But you see there are a lot of ethnic tensions in this country, quickly a debate on MQM or ANP or any other party results in allegations against Punjabis, Pashtuns, Urdu-speakers or others. It is our duty as citizens to challenge these.

Personally ethnic identity does not matter for me. Discussion of it to end ethnic issues plaguing us does. Because it is a Pakistani problem. Some background for you. Note: I am a by birth a Muhajir with only some unproven links to Pashtuns. No real proof I may have Pashtun blood. I am adopting Pashtun identity and identify as one.

However it is not the Pashtun identity that is making me say these things about Muhajirs-it is the 20 or so years I have identified with Muhajirs and my Ansari family background about which I talk here.

Do not try to stiffle this debate Batmannow. Even if you disagree you can agree my purposes are noble. Also please look at the posts? How have I been defending any ethnic group. I have been the most critical person in this regard?

Think of it as this. Today, I a person of (so-called) Muhajir birth severely criticizes racism and intolerance amongst Muhajirs, questions the identity and casts light on an alternative view on it. Tomorrow many others may do the same and challenge ethnic identity. One day the walls of ethnic identity may shatter before us and may no longer divide us. I hope the wisdom here is not lost.

Do note I cannot criticize a Punjabi, Sindhi, Baloch or even a Pashtun (which is my adopted race) without being called a racist, though to make a point I did once and said did it matter trying to state the point its US who have the issue of taking ethnic identity too seriously? But I CAN and have a RESPONSIBILITY to challenge my ethnic identity of birth. I must stop racism when I see it in my relatives and my family, then start with others. That is the first step towards solving the ethnic issue. I am a Nationalist and for years I have tried to delete any link to ethnic identity. Those identities still exist, however. This kind of debate can help in eliminating a lot of tensions that sometimes spill over onto PDF but are more visibly seen on non-moderated sites such as youtube and other places. Please let me do this and do not misunderstand me.

 

[haviZsultan]

On second thoughts, bhai's 'people' live in my street. Perhaps I shouldn't say anything.

Anyways, since people here will bring MQM into this, I'll just post something I posted on another forum. It's the history of how the MQM came

I read your qouted post and believe it is a great way to look at things-neutral I will say and looks at the Muhajir version of events as well just as @Chak Bamu. But personally I am focusing on the other angle.

I could talk about issues that sometimes arise but I have seen them everywhere. I talk to a Baloch driver and asked him military operations are taking place in Balochistan-does the army harass you? Says no. But what he did say was that there was a problem of Pashtun immigration to Balochistan and they should go home (quite emphatically and seemed even hostile when he did)

Talked to a Sindhi friend, said Karachi toh hamara shehar hai tum log toh baad mein ayey the-it was good-natured mind you (just hassi mazak) but the point I am making is I can forever focus on the perceived biases or the issues that so-called Muhajirs face. I can and here even will agree with you on some of the things you say here but then everyone is saying EXACTLY the same thing and I realized this while working as an education coordinator for the Nationalist groups- I would call our schools in Pakhunkhwa, Sindh and Punjab and in each one I would feel that the principal felt that they were under-funded most likely because of their ethnicity and this came as a huge shock for me because these same schools were to produce the future breed of the Nationalist people (since they were run by our people).

You see, I thought about myself and said I could be part of traditional politics or I could look beyond the claims of bias and discrimination and set an example with my actions by challenging these ideas.

Initially we Nationalists tried to eliminate anything such as ethnic identity by never telling anyone our ethnic background (in other words forgetting it existed) knowing that it has been used to fuel divisions in Pakistani society, but the thing is people ask which city you are from or what languages you speak and then they can just figure it out themselves. We still didn't stop trying so we told our members to learn extra languages so we could confuse people when they asked ethnic identity (yes we went that far!)... but it still hasn't worked as it isn't easy to learn new languages and lots of other issues arise.

That proved that ethnic identities would remain... what had to happen was them going to the background as they did in every other nation including the USA. Germans, Britons, Scots, Spaniards all became Americans over time and now don't even know who their ancestors were. We are the ones who are focusing on things that are actually irrelevant in this time and age.

In reality we do not have to have an ethnic identity to actually survive but the situation in Pakistan is different and ethnicity is a reality that plays a huge role in how we vote and think. My idea of adopting Pashtun identity also has a lot to do with taking an entirely different approach to the issue of ethnic tensions though I would be a liar if said it started as that and I didn't love Pashtuns dearly and that wasn't one of the main reasons.

Again, just to address what the talking points are going to be. It happened, that's why people vote MQM. However, should we just break away from everyone because a massacre happened? A worse one happened in India when we were coming here. Yet, I see us hailing a person who thinks that the division was a blunder. For a community which is highly educated, why can't we see past the ethnic bias? It's unbelievable. Even now, many people call the Chief Justice a Punjabi who is attacking our community. How can we not know that he's not even from that province? How can we not see the contempt of court that man did? How can we hail him for apologising when he actually made the mistake?

Yes Indians killed us brutally. I despised them for a long time after what they did, identified strongly with the Hyderabadi branch of our family too which suffered biases but I realized it was just taking too much interest when they didn't want our help, part of the reason for my later rejection of "Muhajir" identity but one reason never plays a role in such things.

You are noticing how society is ethnically polarized and how this polarization actually has to do with politics on ethnic basis. Their use of the ethnic card ensures these people feel they have a duty to defend them but the issue is the mindset. They cannot disengage themselves from thinking Muhajir vs the world.

Also about the massacre. Who did it? It was Afghan nationals not anyone else so how it became a "muhajir" issue? I will qoute something old I posted to chak bamu:

For example lets talk about the Qasba Aligarh massacre. I could call a member Monkey D Luffy here and he will never admit that a mob of 100's of Afghans murdered upon being evicted from a little camp because they were trouble-makers about 50 innocent people... it may also seem that he will do this only because those guys are so-called "Muhajirs" and he a Pashtun who somehow believes his ideological homeland is Afghanistan. He can come and clarify it if this is wrong but he will probably either find excuses like darkinsky, avoid the topic, deny or arrange some pathetic defense for that horrid land. Whatever the case he will never blame "Afghanistan" for it. Now till here it seems totally true... and perhaps in some peoples minds it brings the idea that they have to organize their own community which is he only one that can fight for their rights-meaning the first step towards isolation from the other ethnic groups which will lead to more steps.

But why not look further? (beyond just race!) About a 100 people were killed when those pathetic Afghans (nation) attacked Bajaur. 2 Pakistani Pashtuns were murdered by those Afghans (nation) but still this self-proclaimed Pashtun nationalist did not express sorrow? So you see this guy is very much like the Taliban an apologist of Afghanistan (again he hasn't made any such post in a while so he may have changed though he denied any change on the other forum)... so who is the real enemy? Is it actually the Pashtuns or the Afghans (nation). Again as I said these events have the ability to polarize society but if we think beyond ethnicity when faced with them we can find the real reasons. This is as I stated a National issue... not an ethnic one. Turning things into an ethnic issue from a national one is a tool of the ethno-fascist.

So its basically a National issue. We can say, yes ethnic urdu-speakers were killed but in the Bajaur attacks by Afghan nationals it was pure Pakistani Pashtuns who were killed. So my point is just because it was one community that was a victim it gives us a right to somehow feel we are the victims? Instead it should have united us against Najib's government in neighboring Afghanistan. I believe the victim syndrome is in our mindset. The real issue is how we think of such issues. darkinsky is an example. For us everything turns into a race issue and this is the cause why every ethnic group is being taught a selective history that has no objectivity and includes only ethnic chauvinism. Simple example when a debate begins with a MQM supporter he starts with "hum Muhajiron ney yeh mulk banaya," and then "hamaray saath bura huwa" that explains everything that is wrong with the mentality because even if (lets say-i do not agree though) the claim is true it is not what we ought to tell our kids. But instead tell them that other ethnic groups are our blood-brothers on account of being from the same land and country and they had an equal role in Pakistan's formation.

That's something I can give only one answer to, "We are racist! We are just as racist as those we claim to be defending ourselves from."

Says it all! And it is our duty to focus on our ethnic groups racism first. My issue is our families could have been paragon's, exemplars of national unity and respect for everyone. I am saying this very clearly. The other ethnic groups see us criticizing ourselves and attacking and stopping racists from our ethnic group they will do the same and this is how we can play a part in ending the ethnic issue. It is a shame that our family became racists and bigots after moving trampling over our sacrifice for Pakistan.

You can very rightly say that maybe I even favor or sympathize with other communities when they attack muhajirs specifically but maybe if I can change things in Pakistan by doing so, fine. If I can win their goodwill, if I can create national unity, ethnic unity... great.

Personally I don't care about somebozo or anyone elses comments... some will say but my bum will hurt with the same comment on Pashtuns. My defence of Pashtuns stems not from the fact that I have in many ways successfully adopted Pashtun identity. When I defend them I do so as a person of muhajir birth who has seen biases against them. If I have adopted their identity and start condemning them its like saying I adopted their identity only to insult their customs (my customs now).

That's the truth and the sooner we get over this complex that we have, that we created Pakistan and are, therefore, supposed to be privileged, the sooner we can start helping the people from other provinces as well. And then, who knows, we can make Pakistan a strong country. After all, we are the most educated community, we have influence, we have power, if we use it, we can make it happen. But will we? That's the question

True. We have to put the ethnic issue behind us-its the mindset. We get offended at everything. To make a point I called Muhajirs (i still hold its a fake identity but am using it because its there and exists and people still identify themselves by it and for lack of terms for migrants) stupid and other names to American Pakistani when he said "these people (other ethnic groups) don't accept us and are the real problem" and asked him what difference it made even if that term was insulted.

My point was... what makes us so insecure? Why so attached to these identities. If we stop taking insult to every other thing a lot could change and our family could even have lead this change but by being bigots and insulting others we can only start race wars. These ethnic identities should have disappeared eventually. Yet they exist and make us pretty racist in our outlook of the rest of the world. Your next post is what I really want to look at.

Personally I don't want this to be "just another conversation" or the first and undoubtedly best debate on Muhajir identity. I want those who understand here. You @Secur and @Chak Bamu to play a role in reducing these tensions. When you see bias against someone else or jokes at the expense of Pashtuns or anything that is racist try to stop it. In 71 we were broken because we mishandled this issue. We all have a role to play here. Your next reply may come soon or tomorrow.

 

[Chak Bamu]

@haviZsultan - Some points to ponder:

1. I am not really defending anyone. It is just common decency to have empathy. It helps to appreciate a POV which underlies an uncomfortable phenomenon (MQM). One just can not address a complicated issue without understanding its roots.

2. You have pointed out some shared characteristics of 'Urdu-speaking people'. These characteristics / emotions / feelings / opinions sustain a narrative that MQM exploits. What do variations matter (food, dialect, dress, etc..) among subgroups as long as they loosely subscribe to a POV which can (and is) used for group identity? I am just trying to nudge you to an understanding that you may after all have to accept that despite all you and I might have to say, this label is stuck. The best that can be done is to educate the 'users' of this label about its particular quirks and shortcomings.

3. I witnessed the rise of MQM (via newspapers) and took great interest in their little campaigns of improving Karachi. Their rhetoric was impressive. Their Urdu was impressive too! But they dove into parochial issues and abuse of other ethnicities. This was shocking to ordinary Punjabis because we did not understand the impact of quota system on Urdu-speaking people. We did not understand their insecurities either. There was something there. You or I may not feel that it was justified, or that it is a poor excuse for unacceptable behavior, but it is there nonetheless.

4. Its no use fretting about Pakistan my friend. You or I did not make it, nor do we sustain it by ourselves. What shall be, shall be; no matter how we want it, or how we wish to change it. We must do our part to make things better. But the results are beyond our control. Just maintain a positive outlook and believe in this country. There are many factors working in its favor that can not easily be enumerated or explained. Suffice it to say that had it been Pakistan's destiny to fail, it would have fallen apart already.