Southern Han Chinese and their relationship with the Baiyue

[yue10]

Yue=/= Viet

Despite what EastSea says the Yue state of Goujian has nothing to do with the Yue of Vietnam.

I already stated that the there was no pan-Yue identity back then.

Not all Baiyue's are Vietnamese but Vietnamese are part of the Baiyue.

Prove that the Yue in Guangdong and Guangxi ever identified with the people living in Northern Vietnam.

Zhao Tuo was ethnically Chinese nothing you say changes this.

Yet Zhao Tuo groveled and was willing to be a Han vassal his willingness to cease his attack on Changsha state of Wu Rui shows his submission.

Nanyue governed itself,autonomy doesn't make it Vietnamese.

Bronze drums disappeared after the Zhao Tuo and his progeny ruled according to Keiji Imamura.

do you have proof Vietnamese are part of Baiyue?

The termination of Dong Son is another controversial issue in Vietnamese archaeology. It is generally accepted that the Dong Son assemblages were replaced by Han assemblages after the Han invasion. Since data from the Han tombs in Guangzhou (CPAM 1991) have been published, Han style burials have become more easily recognizable and dateable. In the Early Historical period (post Dong Son), burials and artefacts changed drastically and citadels and large burial groups appeared, as a result of centralization and the introduction of Chinese political divisions. However, as Imamura (1993) and Yoshikai (1997) have observed, Dong Son artifacts, including drums, continued to be used and adopted into Han-style surroundings

LOL @ the VN foreign minister

As a way to signify that this new domain covered both of these areas, the Nguyễn ruling elite chose to combine the character “Nam” from “An Nam” with the “Việt” in “Việt Thường” to create the new name, “Nam Việt” 南越.

After urging the Qing emperor to not approve usage of the name “Nam Việt,” Sun Yuting later noted in a memorial to the throne that in addition to the above meaning, “Việt Nam,” which can literally mean “South of the Việt/Yue,” was also a good name because it indicated that this domain was south of the area where the “Hundred Việt/Yue” (百越, Bách Việt/Baiyue) had once lived, that is, the large region stretching from Zhejiang province through Fujian, Guangdong and Guangxi provinces. This comment again demonstrated Sun Yuting’s concern with possible threats to the region under his jurisdiction, Guangxi province (Qing shilu, Jiaqing reign, 111/11b).

this why I asked about Viet Thuong ages ago but no one know about it

 

[jkroo]

For those under-educated and illiberal people to Chinese culture. Confucius and Yi Jing deserved to learn hard when you love to talk things about China. You will touch where Chinese culture originate from and help you comprehend Chinese patterns.

 

[bolo]

But I heard Tangs moved to the south and siniticized the natives and also intermarried with them, so they prefer calling themselves as Tang people since there weren't siniticized during Han Dynasty.

I also know the overseas Chinese also use the term Han Ren, or Han people, but the term is used interchangeably, but never heard any Chinese say they were descendants of Baiyue. In fact, never heard of that group until PDF.

 

[yue10]

Teach you another lesson:
Emperor Jiaqing confered the title on 阮福映 and gave the name 越南 to the land for historically 阮福映 rise from 越裳 and later got 安南 and geographically location at 百越之南 the south of Baiyue. Thats why 越南 has nothing to do with 南越. You people are really illogic.

China DO contribute positive to VNs independence.
China had promoted the VN civilisation progress during ancient times.

China aid VN to fight the Anti-French anti-jappan and anti-American war to support your independence business in the timeframe from Qing dynasty, ROC times to PRC.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Our culture has the specific of containment and harmony which you never learn.

Our people always listen what you say and observe what you do.

Show us how white your eyes are and keep playing jokes. There is No hatred to VN and the people, thats your delusions too.

Keep talking does not contribute a thing to coutrys progress. China has huge number people who can read and write English but there are only a little persons join the discussions.

my Chinese amigo, at least give me rep if you are going to edit post and made yourself look smart, don't worry I am not intellectualist snobs like most member, just a superior human being with superior peasant mentality that will rule over brainless Annams

 

[jkroo]

my Chinese amigo, at least give me rep if you are going to edit post and made yourself look smart, don't worry I am not intellectualist snobs like most member, just a superior human being with superior peasant mentality that will rule over brainless Annams

Mobile devices issues

 

[jkroo]

@yue10
From your last post. You seems to act as an senior moderate or a wise man, oh thats a good step for you. You are just too early to confess that you are not a intelligent snobs and it seems irrational. You are too early to draw your conclusion on a person that superior, smart or not. Emotion is evil.

No offences to individual VN people and the country. If I hurt you for input words method and talking history stories so I apologize to you.

If I am a Chinese farmer also hurt you, I apologize.

Hope you open your mind.

 

[Viet]

my Chinese amigo, at least give me rep if you are going to edit post and made yourself look smart, don't worry I am not intellectualist snobs like most member, just a superior human being with superior peasant mentality that will rule over brainless Annams

you are a low IQ idiot, as usual. why don´t you jump off the window and prove you are superior?

 

[Viet]

Again you are posting BS. the inhabitants of Guangdong and Guangxi were Tai. We even have Zhuang Tai people living in Guangxi and northern Vietnam NOW.

prove that during the nanyue period the Tai made up most of the population! this pic proves nothing.

This is Kinh people's home

what tells me this picture?

it just shows the region where the first Viets settled down in the red river delta before spreading to other regions. It is said and through archaeological excavations the Viets were in the first who began the development of wet rice cultivation . that was about about of 1,000 BC.

the period of kingdom nanyue existed much later which lasted from 204 BC to 111 BC.

 

[EastSea]

do you have proof Vietnamese are part of Baiyue?




LOL @ the VN foreign minister

this why I asked about Viet Thuong ages ago but no one know about it

You are typical stupid boy, troll and troll.

Vietnam belong to Dong Son culture, Dong Son drum belong to South East Asia people, not only Vietnam. That why Vietnam join to ASEAN.


Look at the map here: 1st century BC to 1st century AD. Dong Son Drum found also in Indonesia.

this why I asked about Viet Thuong ages ago but no one know about it

You can speak Vietnamese, read here, kid.

Nhà nước Việt Thường Thị xuất hiện vào đầu thiên niên kỷ thứ II trước công nguyên. Sách Việt sử lược chép: Đến đời Thành Vương nhà Chu (1042 – 1021 TCN), Việt Thường Thị mới đem dâng con chim trĩ trắng. Như vậy Việt Thường thị xuất hiện sau Văn Lang của Hùng Vươngkhoảng 1800 năm.

Trong Việt Nam sử lược, tác giả Trần Trọng Kim viết: ... sử Tàu có chép rằng năm tân mão (1109 trước Tây lịch), đời vua Thành Vương nhà Chu, có nước Việt Thường, ở phía nam xứ Giao Chỉ sai sứ đem chim bạch trĩ sang cống, nhà Chu phải tìm người làm thông ngôn mới hiểu được tiếng, và ông Chu Công Đán lại chế ra xe chỉ nam để đem sứ Việt Thường về nước...

Sau đó, trong liên minh các bộ lạc Văn Lang, một trong 15 bộ cũng có tên là Việt Thường và là bộ quan trọng thứ hai của nước Văn Lang. Truyền thuyết nhắc lại rằng vùng Hồng Lĩnh là nơi Hùng Vương định đặt đô, mà Hồng Lĩnh là trung tâm của Việt Thường thị, sau là huyện Việt Thường tồn tại cho đến hết niên kỷ thứ nhất sau Công nguyên.

 

[yue10]

@yue10
From your last post. You seems to act as an senior moderate or a wise man, oh thats a good step for you. You are just too early to confess that you are not a intelligent snobs and it seems irrational. You are too early to draw your conclusion on a person that superior, smart or not. Emotion is evil.

No offences to individual VN people and the country. If I hurt you for input words method and talking history stories so I apologize to you.

If I am a Chinese farmer also hurt you, I apologize.

Hope you open your mind.

sorry there my Chinese amigo, I don't understand your English good so don't know if you are speaking badly to me but I just joking about superiority, if you go on different forum you will always noticed these Annam said we defeated this we defeated that act like they are centre of the world and superior, when they speak about bullied from China but they are also bully of their neighbours, the hypocrisy is just too funny, I only said superior because it's dangerous when people with some knowledges thought they are smart and became as snob, I never claim as smart or knowledgeable but when these Annams spread too many lies their non human behaviour is too much

you seemed like reasonable people so I apologized for my behaviours

 

[jkroo]

@Viet

About rice planting culture, it has a history of almost 12000 years.

You know I am a farmer, you can search articles so that it will enrich your knowledge.

 

[Viet]

Teach you another lesson:
Emperor Jiaqing confered the title on 阮福映 and gave the name 越南 to the land for historically 阮福映 rise from 越裳 and later got 安南 and geographically location at 百越之南 the south of Baiyue. Thats why 越南 has nothing to do with 南越. You people are really illogic.

China DO contribute positive to VNs independence.
China had promoted the VN civilisation progress during ancient times.

China aid VN to fight the Anti-French anti-jappan and anti-American war to support your independence business in the timeframe from Qing dynasty, ROC times to PRC.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Our culture has the specific of containment and harmony which you never learn.

Our people always listen what you say and observe what you do.

Show us how white your eyes are and keep playing jokes. There is No hatred to VN and the people, thats your delusions too.

Keep talking does not contribute a thing to coutrys progress. China has huge number people who can read and write English but there are only a little persons join the discussions.

can you elaborate a bit more what you mean with

Our culture has the specific of containment and harmony which you never learn.
Our people always listen what you say and observe what you do.

no doubt, China made a lot of good things and contributed positively to the development of Vietnam, including the supports you mention during the wars against the foreign invaders. however, you destroyed all of these again. worse, the bad things outweigh the good ones. it may be better for all of us, if we both agree to build a highrise wall along the entire Sino-Vietnam border and separate the countries permanently.

Vietnam future lies in SE Asia. Many of us are really tired of the Chinese.

 

[yue10]

You are typical stupid boy, troll and troll.

Vietnam belong to Dong Son culture, Dong Son drum belong to South East Asia people, not only Vietnam. That why Vietnam join to ASEAN.


Look at the map here: 1st century BC to 1st century AD. Dong Son Drum found also in Indonesia.

You can speak Vietnamese, read here, kid.

Nhà nước Việt Thường Thị xuất hiện vào đầu thiên niên kỷ thứ II trước công nguyên. Sách Việt sử lược chép: Đến đời Thành Vương nhà Chu (1042 – 1021 TCN), Việt Thường Thị mới đem dâng con chim trĩ trắng. Như vậy Việt Thường thị xuất hiện sau Văn Lang của Hùng Vươngkhoảng 1800 năm.

Trong Việt Nam sử lược, tác giả Trần Trọng Kim viết: ... sử Tàu có chép rằng năm tân mão (1109 trước Tây lịch), đời vua Thành Vương nhà Chu, có nước Việt Thường, ở phía nam xứ Giao Chỉ sai sứ đem chim bạch trĩ sang cống, nhà Chu phải tìm người làm thông ngôn mới hiểu được tiếng, và ông Chu Công Đán lại chế ra xe chỉ nam để đem sứ Việt Thường về nước...

Sau đó, trong liên minh các bộ lạc Văn Lang, một trong 15 bộ cũng có tên là Việt Thường và là bộ quan trọng thứ hai của nước Văn Lang. Truyền thuyết nhắc lại rằng vùng Hồng Lĩnh là nơi Hùng Vương định đặt đô, mà Hồng Lĩnh là trung tâm của Việt Thường thị, sau là huyện Việt Thường tồn tại cho đến hết niên kỷ thứ nhất sau Công nguyên.

I never say Jiaozhi people is not your ancestor, I said they are not your true root understand? original Jiaozhi people is Tai not your Mon-Khmer root who came later and take over, then is start of Viet identity and culture

Dong Son have nothing to do with your Annams
In the second half of the twentieth century, the bronze drum became a symbol of “the antiquity of Việt nation.”
However, from the time that the people we refer to as the Việt started to record information about themselves until the present – a time period roughly equivalent to the thousand years of the second millennium AD – bronze drums were never part of the cultural lives of the Việt. Instead, it is people whom the Việt perceived to be different from themselves, and whom the Việt looked down upon, who employed bronze drums in their cultural lives.In any case, none of the details that Lê Tắc provided were his own. Instead, they can be found in earlier “Chinese” sources. Some people will argue that Lê Tắc probably wrote this way because he wrote this book when he was in “China,” but the nineteenth-century geographical text, the Đại Nam nhất thống chí 大南一統志, likewise cited “Chinese” sources to explain what bronze drums were.
So prior to the twentieth century, bronze drums, which are now the symbol of “the antiquity of the Việt nation,” were basically unknown to the Việt.


read here your language
This revised narrative challenges traditional concepts of the multi-millennial “survival” of the Vietnamese language,
suggesting instead a “birth” of Vietnamese, significantly not in the depths of pre-Chinese history but during and immediately following Annam’s long centuries of membership within the Chinese imperial order.
First, I argue that Annam witnessed a “language shift” among sectors of its elite population away from a local variety of Middle Chinese (spoken regionally), and towards the local, non-Chinese language of “Proto-Viet–Muong” (i.e. the immediate ancestor of the modern Vietnamese and Muong languages). This process of “language shift” radically transformed the grammar and vocabulary of Proto-Viet–Muong.
Applied to turn-of-the-millennium Annam, this case suggests that a population of Annamese Middle Chinese speakers shifted to Proto-Viet–Muong, thereby inducing a number of linguistic innovations that were subsequently imitated by the Proto-Viet–Muong community as a whole and thus “permanently established in the language”.
The arguments I have made here—the existence of a local dialect of Middle Chinese, its obsolescence in favour of Proto Viet–Muong, and the eventual emergence of a new language from among the hybridized dialects that followed—plainly challenge the notion of a multi-millennial “Vietnamese” identity. They strongly imply that a recognizable culture for the Vietnamese, like their language, formed during the first few centuries of independent kingship, rather than in a vague and distant, pre-Chinese era.

 

[jkroo]

sorry there my Chinese amigo, I don't understand your English good so don't know if you are speaking badly to me but I just joking about superiority, if you go on different forum you will always noticed these Annam said we defeated this we defeated that act like they are centre of the world and superior, when they speak about bullied from China but they are also bully of their neighbours, the hypocrisy is just too funny, I only said superior because it's dangerous when people with some knowledges thought they are smart and became as snob, I never claim as smart or knowledgeable but when these Annams spread too many lies their non human behaviour is too much

you seemed like reasonable people so I apologized for my behaviours

Got it with thanks.

I dont know where you are from for I use a mobile version and see no flags.

They seemed to be annoied and bullying.

I dont know the story but I know they do fabricate somthing to make them proud. So I point out they have delusions though they are free to do so.

Never mind friend. Though they claimed too much things and show their strength weakness exploid.

I am good at chinglish, right?

Just take it easy.

 

[Viet]

@Viet

About rice planting culture, it has a history of almost 12000 years.

You know I am a farmer, you can search articles so that it will enrich your knowledge.

I talked of wet rice cultivation in red river delta 1,000 bc, while you...
okay, as you are a farmer pls enrich my knowledge of rice planting culture 12,000 years ago. I am always ready to learn.

I never say Jiaozhi people is not your ancestor, I said they are not your true root understand? original Jiaozhi people is Tai not your Mon-Khmer root who came later and take over, then is start of Viet identity and culture

Dong Son have nothing to do with your Annams
In the second half of the twentieth century, the bronze drum became a symbol of “the antiquity of Việt nation.”
However, from the time that the people we refer to as the Việt started to record information about themselves until the present – a time period roughly equivalent to the thousand years of the second millennium AD – bronze drums were never part of the cultural lives of the Việt. Instead, it is people whom the Việt perceived to be different from themselves, and whom the Việt looked down upon, who employed bronze drums in their cultural lives.In any case, none of the details that Lê Tắc provided were his own. Instead, they can be found in earlier “Chinese” sources. Some people will argue that Lê Tắc probably wrote this way because he wrote this book when he was in “China,” but the nineteenth-century geographical text, the Đại Nam nhất thống chí 大南一統志, likewise cited “Chinese” sources to explain what bronze drums were.
So prior to the twentieth century, bronze drums, which are now the symbol of “the antiquity of the Việt nation,” were basically unknown to the Việt.


read here your language
This revised narrative challenges traditional concepts of the multi-millennial “survival” of the Vietnamese language,
suggesting instead a “birth” of Vietnamese, significantly not in the depths of pre-Chinese history but during and immediately following Annam’s long centuries of membership within the Chinese imperial order.
First, I argue that Annam witnessed a “language shift” among sectors of its elite population away from a local variety of Middle Chinese (spoken regionally), and towards the local, non-Chinese language of “Proto-Viet–Muong” (i.e. the immediate ancestor of the modern Vietnamese and Muong languages). This process of “language shift” radically transformed the grammar and vocabulary of Proto-Viet–Muong.
Applied to turn-of-the-millennium Annam, this case suggests that a population of Annamese Middle Chinese speakers shifted to Proto-Viet–Muong, thereby inducing a number of linguistic innovations that were subsequently imitated by the Proto-Viet–Muong community as a whole and thus “permanently established in the language”.
The arguments I have made here—the existence of a local dialect of Middle Chinese, its obsolescence in favour of Proto Viet–Muong, and the eventual emergence of a new language from among the hybridized dialects that followed—plainly challenge the notion of a multi-millennial “Vietnamese” identity. They strongly imply that a recognizable culture for the Vietnamese, like their language, formed during the first few centuries of independent kingship, rather than in a vague and distant, pre-Chinese era.

don´t forget to jump off the building and prove your superiority