Southern Han Chinese and their relationship with the Baiyue

[Viet]

Exactly,I ask Vietnamese members to name one reason why it was Vietnamese and then all of sudden they disappear.

yue=Viet
nanyue=NamViet, large part of today Vietnam
Zhao Tuo was a Qin general. however, he founded the country Nanyue in 204 BC after the collapse of the Qin.
Nanyue was a sovereign nation, independent from the Han
submission to the Han emperors was superficial, as Nanyue retained autonomy
Zhao referred himself as Emperor throughout Nanyue until his death

 

[jkroo]

yue=Viet
nanyue=NamViet, large part of today Vietnam
Zhao Tuo was a Qin general. however, he founded the country Nanyue in 204 BC after the collapse of the Qin.
Nanyue was a sovereign nation, independent from the Han
submission to the Han emperors was superficial, as Nanyue retained autonomy
Zhao referred himself as Emperor throughout Nanyue until his death

Its ok for your VN people to treat General Zhao of Qin dynasty as your anscistor.
Just teach you a lesson:
Nanyue=南粤=南越=//=越南
Nanyue is totally different from 越南.
Viet or something else pronouciation has nothing to do with Nanyue.
Use your limited Chinese culture harder to figure it out.
Nanyue is part of Chinese history and has submit itself to the rule of Han dynasty.
You people have so much delusions.

 

[Grand Historian]

yue=Viet
nanyue=NamViet, large part of today Vietnam
Zhao Tuo was a Qin general. however, he founded the country Nanyue in 204 BC after the collapse of the Qin.
Nanyue was a sovereign nation, independent from the Han
submission to the Han emperors was superficial, as Nanyue retained autonomy
Zhao referred himself as Emperor throughout Nanyue until his death

Yue=/= Viet

Despite what EastSea says the Yue state of Goujian has nothing to do with the Yue of Vietnam.

I already stated that the there was no pan-Yue identity back then.

Not all Baiyue's are Vietnamese but Vietnamese are part of the Baiyue.

Prove that the Yue in Guangdong and Guangxi ever identified with the people living in Northern Vietnam.

Zhao Tuo was ethnically Chinese nothing you say changes this.

Yet Zhao Tuo groveled and was willing to be a Han vassal his willingness to cease his attack on Changsha state of Wu Rui shows his submission.

Nanyue governed itself,autonomy doesn't make it Vietnamese.

Bronze drums disappeared after the Zhao Tuo and his progeny ruled according to Keiji Imamura.

 

[Viet]

Yue=/= Viet

Despite what EastSea says the Yue state of Goujian has nothing to do with the Yue of Vietnam.

I already stated that the there was no pan-Yue identity back then.

Not all Baiyue's are Vietnamese but Vietnamese are part of the Baiyue.

Prove that the Yue in Guangdong and Guangxi ever identified with the people living in Northern Vietnam.

Zhao Tuo was ethnically Chinese nothing you say changes this.

Yet Zhao Tuo groveled and was willing to be a Han vassal his willingness to cease his attack on Changsha state of Wu Rui shows his submission.

Nanyue governed itself,autonomy doesn't make it Vietnamese.

Bronze drums disappeared after the Zhao Tuo and his progeny ruled according to Keiji Imamura.

- yue=viet in our world
- we talk of nanyue, not Yue state of Goujian, which occurred ealier.
- why pan-yue identity was needed for the existence of nanyue as independent entity?
- agreed
- what a question. similiar if I ask you: prove that the people of Tibet ever identified with Xinjang?
- Catherine the Great was a German. she ruled as emperor of Russia. there are a lot of non-native rulers in the world history. origin nationality does not count.
- Kingdom of Vietnam paid tributes to the Han as a sign of submission. Did Kingdom of Vietnam belong to China?
- independent government and autonomy mean sovereignty.

 

[jkroo]

- yue=viet in our world
- we talk of nanyue, not Yue state of Goujian, which occurred ealier.
- why pan-yue identity was needed for the existence of nanyue as independent entity?
- agreed
- what a question. similiar if I ask you: prove that the people of Tibet ever identified with Xinjang?
- Catherine the Great was a German. she ruled as emperor of Russia. there are a lot of non-native rulers in the world history. origin nationality does not count.
- Kingdom of Vietnam paid tributes to the Han as a sign of submission. Did Kingdom of Vietnam belong to China?
- independent government and autonomy mean sovereignty.

You just showed your illogical mind.

You are a confused person for using modern conceptions and definitions to claim your brilliant history.

You already have a independent coutry named as Viet Nam but you people keep claiming you are fighting for independent. I guess you are a VN internet warrior that defend your internet land that really never exist.

You show your independent history but I see no independent as an individual as you.

You show your contribution to Chinese but I also see no contribution except fabricated stuff.

 

[Viet]

Its ok for your VN people to treat General Zhao of Qin dynasty as your anscistor.
Just teach you a lesson:
Nanyue=南粤=南越=//=越南
Nanyue is totally different from 越南.
Viet or something else pronouciation has nothing to do with Nanyue.
Use your limited Chinese culture harder to figure it out.
Nanyue is part of Chinese history and has submit itself to the rule of Han dynasty.
You people have so much delusions.

after the Viet emperor Gia Long re-united the country in year 1802, he wanted to rename his nation from Dai Viet (Great Viet) to Namviet. When he asked the Chinese emperor Jiāqìng for permission, however, Jiāqìng rejected the idea because he feared Vietnam could claim the ancient Kingdom of NamViet. as a compromise Gia Long was given the name Vietnam. switching the syllables.
if nanyue has nothing to do with the Viets and Vietnam, why Jiāqìng refused the name nanyue, but gave a goahead of yuenan?

 

[jkroo]

You see now Jiaqing give the name to your country as he wish and the name exists. What the fear of a empire?

Can you figure it now why 南越=//=越南 now? Do you need another lesson now? Try harder please.

So you show your brave logic by thinking the fearness of the master. Just go ahead please.

 

[Viet]

You see now Jiaqing give the name to your country as he wish and the name exists. What the fear of a empire?

Can you figure it now why 南越=//=越南 now? Do you need another lesson now? Try harder please.

So you show your brave logic by thinking the fearness of the master. Just go ahead please.

you are right, fear is the wrong word.

actually Vietnam wanted not only a goahead of Chinese emperor to the change of country name, but to a military campaign against the Kingdom of Siam.
the Siamese had ermerged to a major threat for Vietnam as they controlled Laos and Cambodia, and sooner or later they would launch another attack to Vietnam.

China should stay neutral should it come a confrontation in the region. I understand 南越 is not 越南, for you, but for us, it is the same. as a result, Vietnam under the Nguyen expelled and defeated the Siamese and dominated the indochinese region and beyond. the glorious era came to an end when the French arrived.

 

[Wholegrain]

yue=Viet
nanyue=NamViet, large part of today Vietnam
Zhao Tuo was a Qin general. however, he founded the country Nanyue in 204 BC after the collapse of the Qin.
Nanyue was a sovereign nation, independent from the Han
submission to the Han emperors was superficial, as Nanyue retained autonomy
Zhao referred himself as Emperor throughout Nanyue until his death

Again you are posting BS. the inhabitants of Guangdong and Guangxi were Tai. We even have Zhuang Tai people living in Guangxi and northern Vietnam NOW.

This is Kinh people's home

I have all along suggest "y chromosome" genetist migration theory and anthropological theory could have need further reconciliation. I think I have made myself clear enough.

If you cite O3 Y chromosome, do it all the way, and conclusion is Chinese come from SE Asian, as most leading Y chromosome expert propose. So the similarity of Northern and Southern Chinese Y chromosome could be due to people from South moving North.

Y-Chromosome Evidence for a Northward Migration of Modern Humans into Eastern Asia during the Last Ice Age

Investigative Genetics | Full text | Inferring human history in East Asia from Y chromosomes

PLOS ONE: Human Migration through Bottlenecks from Southeast Asia into East Asia during Last Glacial Maximum Revealed by Y Chromosomes


IQ shows nothing about ancestry. Today, the high IQ centers of China are Shanghai, Guangdong, Taiwan and HK are all former barbarian land. The Yellow river plains and Xi-an, cradle of Han civilization are now low IQ, poor people receiving state aid.



This is a reasonable voice that we may move on from here.

It seems you have no damn idea what those scientific papers are talking about.

That migration happened in PREhistoric times, before there were ethnic groups even existing.

In the PREHISTORIC era during the last ice age, the Y Chromosome Haplogroup O did indeed originate in southeast asia. Then these Y chromosome haplogroup O bearers moved in a major migration from southeast asia all the way to northern China.

Then, the Y Chromosome O started mutating into subclades along the way of the migration. Those Y chromosome O people who moved to northern China became Y Chromosome O3a, those other Y chromosome O people in southern China and southeast asia also mutated during their migration, and became O1 or O2.

That was all in prehistoric times. Then in historical times, that means in recorded history, ethnic groups began to form. The Huaxia (Northern Han Chinese) ethnic group formed among Oa3 bearers in northern China, while Baiyue tribes formed among O2 and O1 peoples in southern China. Then, we have the recorded conquests of the Qin and Han dynasty conquering southern China, and the migrations of northern Han to southern China during the Han, Eastern Jin dynasty, Tang dynasty, and southern Song dynasty. Those Oa3 migrants displaced their O2 cousins that they left behind in southern China.

 

[Wholegrain]

The Min Nan are closest to old Chinese for your info. The lect we speak are very close to Chinese classics which is considered elegant by some Chinese language expert.

From hudong baike

闽南方言保留下来的古汉语较多，因此被学术界称为“语言的活化石”。闽南方言历来为国内外语言学家所重视。 这对汉语古音的构拟，古籍的训释，汉语史的研究都具有重要的意义。



Actually the coaster cities got high IQ because of urbanization and smart people all over flooded there. Also they are the windows of China. I am pretty aware of that.

Exactly, Minnan is closer to Old Chinese than Mandarin, since people in Fujian are largely descended on their male side form northern Han migrants, which contradicts your BS claim that southern Chinese are "sinicized Malays".

I do not dislike Northern Chinese. I am stating an inconvenient fact.

The non homogeneous composition of Han Chinese and Sinitic lect are establish fact. 汉人不是单一民族 Do not get angry for when I state a fact.

Discuss logically -- please. Blind accusation will not bring us forward.

Your stating false BS like claiming a few thousand nomads can change the DNA of millions of people. Do you have any idea how small the Xianbei population of northern China was? Do you know today that there are still only 10 million Manchus (INCLUDING Han bannermen and Mongol bannermen) today, among hundreds of millions of northern Han?

A ruling class, by definition, will be way smaller than the general population. There could be 1,000 Xianbei and thry could make up 90% of the aristocracy and have all their names recorded in whatever history book, and it they still can't do **** to change the DNA of millions of people.

Chinese dialects non-homogenous? Do you even know what homogenous means? There is a degree of which dialect is closer to the Old Chinese, and indeed southern dialects are closer, while Mandarin is more distant, and thats just because Mandarin drifted and evolved more than southern dialects, it that has nothing to do with the genetic makeup of the people speaking it. ALL languages and dialects evolve and change, even if they don't come into contact with others. Even languages on isolated islands off the coast of Papua New Guinea will change from what they were spoken like 2,000 years ago, some will drift more than others.

But I heard Tangs moved to the south and siniticized the natives and also intermarried with them, so they prefer calling themselves as Tang people since there weren't siniticized during Han Dynasty.

Northern Chinese migration started to southern China during the Qin and Han dynasties and big migrations happened in the eastern Jin dynasty. But natives still outnumbered migrants. It was during the late Tang when so many northern migrants moved south and finally outnumbered the natives, and during the Song, southern China overtook northern China in population.

 

[Wholegrain]

Min Nan/ Taiwanese is the direct descendant of old Chinese while Mandarin and Cantonese gone through the middle Chinese phase.

We preserve a lot of Chinese classics.

不知道 - 毋知也
你 - 汝
筷子 - 箸
锅 - 鼎
不需要 - 免
眼睛 - 目



I receive a lot of challenges from PRCs that will never reason with logic and I am quite tired with such war. Many PRCs here resort to insult once their inferior logic got rebuttal.

Wrong. You have multiple issues, and not all of them are tied to your political pov. I'm not from the PRC btw.

For example, there are Singaporeans who are anti PRC, but they aren't concerned with any of this Baiyue, northern nomad bullsh** and don't go off spouting BS on history they don't know about. I can have a logical discussion with someone with a different political position, but doesn't spout crap about anthropology, history, genetics etc.

You, you have a laundry list of BS claims coming out of your mouth about how all northern Han all nomad descendants, (depite the fact that their percetage Haplogroup C is puny and most are O3a), southern Chinese are "sinicized Malays", that Vietnam is closer to southern Chinese, bla bla bla.

You do realize that these claims will get ANY logical person from the PRC, regardless of whether they support the CCP or not, angry? You know just because someone doesn't support the CCP, they won't angry with your BS? YOU are tying history and genetics to peoples political positions, claiming that only angry "youth" "PRC" disagree with your positions. I didn't know that the Communist party has published anything about genetics or anyting concerning your BS claims.

 

[EastSea]

Again you are posting BS. the inhabitants of Guangdong and Guangxi were Tai. We even have Zhuang Tai people living in Guangxi and northern Vietnam NOW.

This is Kinh people's home

It seems you have no damn idea what those scientific papers are talking about.

That migration happened in PREhistoric times, before there were ethnic groups even existing.

In the PREHISTORIC era during the last ice age, the Y Chromosome Haplogroup O did indeed originate in southeast asia. Then these Y chromosome haplogroup O bearers moved in a major migration from southeast asia all the way to northern China.

Then, the Y Chromosome O started mutating into subclades along the way of the migration. Those Y chromosome O people who moved to northern China became Y Chromosome O3a, those other Y chromosome O people in southern China and southeast asia also mutated during their migration, and became O1 or O2.

That was all in prehistoric times. Then in historical times, that means in recorded history, ethnic groups began to form. The Huaxia (Northern Han Chinese) ethnic group formed among Oa3 bearers in northern China, while Baiyue tribes formed among O2 and O1 peoples in southern China. Then, we have the recorded conquests of the Qin and Han dynasty conquering southern China, and the migrations of northern Han to southern China during the Han, Eastern Jin dynasty, Tang dynasty, and southern Song dynasty. Those Oa3 migrants displaced their O2 cousins that they left behind in southern China.

.
Kinh Dương Vương reigns over the Xích Quỷ confederacy that occupied the Red River Delta in present-day Northern Vietnam and part of southeastern China, starting the Hồng Bàng Dynasty.

People of Van lang was Mon/Khmer/Muong (Luo Yue) and Thai/Katay (Ouo Yue) speaking languages..and also called Jiao Zhi people.

Vietnamese Kinh people became independent ethnic group from Muong/Tay people around 1,300 year ago. So that Vietnmese is formed on basic words from Mon/Khmer language but Vietnamese vowels are all pronounced with an inherent tone influenced from Thai/Katay language. Jiao Zhi people were Kinh people's direct ancestors.

Kh"mu people, who speak Mon/Khmer language is living now in Laos.

 

[Grand Historian]

.
Kinh Dương Vương reigns over the Xích Quỷ confederacy that occupied the Red River Delta in present-day Northern Vietnam and part of southeastern China, starting the Hồng Bàng Dynasty.

People of Van lang was Mon/Khmer/Muong (Luo Yue) and Thai/Katay (Ouo Yue) speaking languages..and also called Jiao Zhi people.

Vietnamese Kinh people became independent ethnic group from Muong/Tay people around 1,300 year ago. So that Vietnmese is basic words from Mon/Khmer language but Vietnamese vowels are all pronounced with an inherent tone influenced from Thai/Katay language.

Kh"mu people, who speak Mon/Khmer language is living now in Laos.

Sigh this is pointless,you have no proof of your Vietnamese myth yet you try to present it as historical fact.

A book written thousands of years later is hardly conclusive proof,show me research papers and Sinologists who agree with your claim.

For the last time the natives of Southern China never identified themselves with Vietnamese people,if your Hung King myth is true then why don't any other ethnicity have legends about him?

If you insist to keep on trolling then I'm afraid a moderator will intervene.

 

[EastSea]

Khmu people is part of Laotien people, Khmer people is living in Cambodia. They both are considered as our brothers and sisters. We don't care what Chinese metizos spread hatred against us. We shall done every thing to protectorate our blood friends.

Sigh this is pointless,you have no proof of your Vietnamese myth yet you try to present it as historical fact.

A book written thousands of years later is hardly conclusive proof,show me research papers and Sinologists who agree with your claim.

For the last time the natives of Southern China never identified themselves with Vietnamese people,if your Hung King myth is true then why don't any other ethnicity have legends about him?

If you insist to keep on trolling then I'm afraid a moderator will intervene.

Why ?

It is stating in our textual history book was written by our ancestor. We don't have right to deny it.

 

[jkroo]

you are right, fear is the wrong word.

actually Vietnam wanted not only a goahead of Chinese emperor to the change of country name, but to a military campaign against the Kingdom of Siam.
the Siamese had ermerged to a major threat for Vietnam as they controlled Laos and Cambodia, and sooner or later they would launch another attack to Vietnam.

China should stay neutral should it come a confrontation in the region. I understand 南越 is not 越南, for you, but for us, it is the same. as a result, Vietnam under the Nguyen expelled and defeated the Siamese and dominated the indochinese region and beyond. the glorious era came to an end when the French arrived.

Teach you another lesson:
Emperor Jiaqing confered the title on 阮福映 and gave the name 越南 to the land for historically 阮福映 rise from 越裳 and later got 安南 and geographically location at 百越之南 the south of Baiyue. Thats why 越南 has nothing to do with 南越. You people are really illogic.

China DO contribute positive to VNs independence.
China had promoted the VN civilisation progress during ancient times.

China aid VN to fight the Anti-French anti-jappan and anti-American war to support your independence business in the timeframe from Qing dynasty, ROC times to PRC.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Our culture has the specific of containment and harmony which you never learn.

Our people always listen what you say and observe what you do.

Show us how white your eyes are and keep playing jokes. There is No hatred to VN and the people, thats your delusions too.

Keep talking does not contribute a thing to coutrys progress. China has huge number people who can read and write English but there are only a little persons join the discussions.