Sophistication of Indian tech is now sufficient to build a Rafale

[Abingdonboy]

you my brother remind me of

the guy who believes that during Christmas

The store says "buy one get one free"

or

The store says "Everything 50% off"

Get this "free" and that "free".

hahah

I'm not sure I quite understand what you are getting at.....

 

[FaujHistorian]

i'm confused. are you saying buy a few dozen Rafales and then copy the tech like China???
since when can India make the Snecma 88 and RBE2 AESA radar??? the avionics and SPECTRA???

this isn't how it works.

Not copying.

one is short term solution

the other is long term.

 

[Abingdonboy]

i'm confused. are you saying buy a few dozen Rafales and then copy the tech like China???
since when can India make the Snecma 88 and RBE2 AESA radar??? the avionics and SPECTRA???
.

India could probably reverse engineer this given enough time and effort but it's not how India works, India respects IPR and this brings with it many benefits- China is under an international arms embargo whilst India can shop for the very best equipment available on the open market whenever it wants.

 

[Raul_AD]

=3121']
Corruption in India's Defence Deals: A Case Study on Business and Government Ethics

=3121']
Corruption in India's Defence Deals: A Case Study on Business and Government Ethics | Chakraborty | TIJ's Research Journal of Social Science & Management - RJSSM


Rafale fanboys will find this interesting.

 

[Gessler]

Oh and by the way...licensed production itself is going to bring thousands of jobs and save billions in forex. On top
of gaining production-engineering knowledge and having access to future techs being developed for the platform in
question.

 

[Kloitra]

This is the point sir!!! You already have a elephant under your One foot why do you want another elephant under your other foot also?????????

Short ans: we don't want another elephant, but a goat can't do the job. So looking for something in between, a balance of cost and performance.

More aircraft are needed. Not light ones like LCA, but ones which can support better EW/CM, more payload, more range, better radar, better performance etc. Mki fit the bill. But heaving 126 (200) more heavy fighters costly, when a medium one can do the job. Hence the competition for medium multirole. Apart from high availability/lower maintenance, overall lower life time costs, Rafale offers certain technologies/weapons etc that were not available with Mki. Also, 50% investment in India, possibly some critical tech.

 

[Gessler]

=3121']
=3121']Corruption in India's Defence Deals: A Case Study on Business and Government Ethics
=3121']
=3121']=3121']
=3121']Corruption in India's Defence Deals: A Case Study on Business and Government Ethics | Chakraborty | TIJ's Research Journal of Social Science & Management - RJSSM


Rafale fanboys will find this interesting.

Dude, the people here have gone through the corruption thing in defence deals time and again and are actually
PhDs in smelling a rat where there is one.

 

[Raul_AD]

you my brother remind me of

the guy who believes that during Christmas

The store says "buy one get one free"

or

The store says "Everything 50% off"

Get this "free" and that "free".

hahah

Very well quoted!!!!

 

[nik22]

@FaujHistorian and other pakistani members, I appreciate that you started this thread. Good to see comments from Pakistani members.

I am not sure if it is appropriate to say but may be it is our tribute to martyrs in Wagah attack. May god give them peace and wealthy, healthy, peaceful life if reincarnation happen.

 

[Jungibaaz]

While the needs & requirements of Indian military & industrial complexes will be best decided by the Military, MoD,
MoF and GoI as a whole...it is always amusing to see armchair generals shouting suggestions to change/ditch
deals which are worth more than most countries' entire defence budgets.

What's even more amusing is to see other armchair generals to show up and seemingly defy the infallible logic provided by others in a very non-constructive way.

Let me just say, if we in Pakistan had 20 bill to burn on more fighters, and had a dire specific requirement, I would opt to spend that money on the JF-17, if the JF-17 due to design limitations could not fulfil that role, I'd like to see it go to another project maximum Pakistani input, that incorporates our industry as much as possible, promoting self sufficiency.

@FaujHistorian and other pakistani members, I appreciate that you started this thread. Good to see comments from Pakistani members.

I am not sure if it is appropriate to say but may be it is our tribute to martyrs in Wagah attack. May god give them peace and wealthy, healthy, peaceful life if reincarnation happen.

Your comments are appreciated, God Bless you.

 

[Raul_AD]

Dude, the people here have gone through the corruption thing in defence deals time and again and are actually
PhDs in smelling a rat where there is one.

Yes from Bofors to Agusta westland. Quottrochi run away and arrest in Italy of Giuseppe Orsi, the CEO of Finmeccanica,

 

[Jungibaaz]

i'm confused. are you saying buy a few dozen Rafales and then copy the tech like China???
since when can India make the Snecma 88 and RBE2 AESA radar??? the avionics and SPECTRA???

this isn't how it works.

Rafale project is an excellent deal, pricey, but for the price you get arguably the most capable machine out there for it's role, huge technology transfer, local production and a very strong contract.

All the OP and some Indians on this thread are saying, is that the technical requirement should be carefully weighed against the choices and the implications of those choices to domestic industry.

The Rafale deal in itself will keep French high tech industry in that sector for many years longer where the funds could have been used to further build local industry, it's also better for the economy. It's an opportunity cost that on it's own is a no brainier.

However, with that said, the Rafale offers what no other aircraft out there offers right now to India. It makes sense for the IAF to push to fulfil it's own requirements.

 

[sancho]

Same level of cooperation as was in the case of Scorpion Subs??????????

Hopefully support in integrating an own AIP system is not the worst cooperation isn't it? But since HAL has experience in licence production, we shouldn't have that much of a problem to absorb ToT like we had with MDL who started from scratch. I am more worried about DRDOs performance on the development of the AIP than the lack of support of DCNS.

Of course they will provide TOT. But that will be just enough to manufacture Rafale. Whether it will help us in developing our own products based on TOT is the real question. I am sure we wont be able to use that TOT for domestic purposes.

That's your assumption, I would point back the fact that on all important deals or development where ToT is crucial it's often French companies that wins or are prefered. Rafale in MMRCA, shakti engine for Dhruv, LCH and LUH, Maitri SAM based on MICA ToT, the Samtel Thales JV that turned out to be very promising, Scorpene, Cheetak and Cheetal helicopters that we were licence producing for years, just as Jaguars and so on. So we do choose French companies often because of their rediness to provide techs and with less restrictions, the downside are the costs, but then again, we get what we want in return.

50% of total plane cost?

or 50% of assembly cost.

There are different ways to view this.

50% of the total cost, estimated $7 to 9 billion dollar, which shows the importance the industrial return had in this deal from the start. Usual are 30% btw, so the GoI demanded much in return for the money.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Let me just say, if we in Pakistan had 20 bill to burn on more fighters, and had a dire specific requirement, I would opt to spend that money on the JF-17, if the JF-17 due to design limitations could not fulfil that role, I'd like to see it go to another project maximum Pakistani input, that incorporates our industry as much as possible, promoting self sufficiency.

Really? Even if that meant a gap of about 15-20 years before you actually saw a fighter emerge?


Many people here are making some very silly assumptions:

1) For $16BN (NOT $20+ BN, how many times??) India is only getting 126 fighters, absolutely nothing more
2)That India is buying from abroad means no money will be spent on India's domestic aviation industry
3) The orders for Rafale will in some way hurt the orders for the LCA


When in reality:

1) For $16 BN India will get the planes, training, spares, weapons, ToT AND $8 BN will be ploughed back into the Indian aerospace industry.
2) Not at all, aside from the $8 BN that will be coming in from Dassualt, ADA/DRDO and HAL will continue to be getting increasing funds for R&D, not to mention the increasing opening up of the industry to Indian private entities.
3) In NO WAY, this is just stupidity. The IAF will be looking to get in excess of 200 LCAs and the IN another 40-50.


The fact of the matter is even for $20 BN USD India couldn't make a plane up to the Rafale's standards before 2030 and Pakistan couldn't do so for at least 3 decades (if it went alone). So does that mean you let your military standstill as its opponents (China) grow stronger and stronger? Let's get one thing clear- the Rafale is going to meet a very specific need in the IAF's fleet, it is not coming as a "Gucci" item, it isn't just some vanity purchase but born out of a tangible threat perception.

 

[UKBengali]

If India started now, then they probably can make a Rafale equivalent by 2030 and by then the Chinese would have around 1000 J-20/ J-31 in service.

Best to buy both Rafale and work on making the Tejas more indigenous and more capable.