Sophistication of Indian tech is now sufficient to build a Rafale

[karan21]

HAL is missing enthusiasm, intelligence, and orderly operations that PAC has

I don't to compare the PAC with HAL. HAL is miles ahead of PAC. Don't even bother.

 

[sathya]

Just wait a few years, India s new TATA aerospace division will easily make PAC a puny one
No need to compare it with HAL .

 

[manojb]

Engine makes 1/3rd of fighter AC. So lca is 1/3 American and jf17 1/3 Russia n. Lca with kaveri engine?no thanks for now!

Who knows 6th generation ac could be indo-french jv!!

 

[airmarshal]

Better than all of them for sure.

Come man! Better than all those? Brazil makes commercial jets and exports them too. Check Embraer 70 and 90.

China's aviation industry is most advanced in Asia with them building and designing so many fighter jets.

Can India compare with these two? Keep your nationalistic chest thumping to yourself. Be realistic.

 

[Lostsoldier]

Because the Rafale is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper to maintain than the MKI whilst being almost as capable in some regards and superior in others. So for the price you are getting a hell of a package not to mention the industrial benefits the deal will bring as a whole.

The MMRCA/Rafale deal is more than justified..

You are gonna quote the same thing a hundred times. Lol

 

[MilSpec]

Watch this and give me your OP. -

It shows capabilities such as Coordinate measuring machine, Plating and chem lab, CAD models, Final assembly line for F7 at the aircraft rebuild factory, with Assembled wing subsystem, Orbital riveters and assembly fixtures, 5 axis VMC's with quite short bed for smaller components, most likely actuator assembly (With sinumerik 840D controller from what I can make out), droptank fabrication with TIG welding, Gearbox assembly, engine assembly, Mil Std 8 and 16 pin connectors fabrication, more CMM's, Lab setup for checking oil contamination and acid test rig, mass Specs, Small air-frame connectors, slats, and actuating surface in the sheet metal shop. Skin cover panels for the fuselage....

Very impressive, but still apples to oranges...

 

[Yeti]

Come man! Better than all those? Brazil makes commercial jets and exports them too. Check Embraer 70 and 90.

China's aviation industry is most advanced in Asia with them building and designing so many fighter jets.

Can India compare with these two? Keep your nationalistic chest thumping to yourself. Be realistic.

I doubt China is as advanced as Japan as China still depends on Russia for a lot of tech!

 

[Yeti]

Russia, China Continue Negotiations for Su-35S Fighters | Aviation International News

 

[Yeti]

Meanwhile, Russia continues to supply of Mil Mi-17 helicopters to China, with shipments exceeding 300 units. These are supplemented by ongoing deliveries of a relatively small number of Mi-26 superheavy and Kamov Ka-32A11BC firefighting rotorcraft. Other items Russia exports to China include four-engine Ilyushin Il-76 airlifters repaired and upgraded from the secondary market, AL-31FN Series 3 turbofan engines for China’s J-10 fighter and D-30KP-2 engines that power in-service Il-76 jets and newly assembled B-6 bombers.

 

[Abingdonboy]

You say 16 Billion, but I bet that if it's signed today, 10 years from now not only will it be 20 billion, but in fact more than 20 billion even in real terms with inflation taken in to account.

How does this work? India and Dassualt will sign a deal this year/early next year agreeing upon the $16BN figure paid out over 10 years with 10% paid upfront. How does inflation come into it? They will agree to the price based on today's exchange rate.

It doesn't always need to take that long. But fine, let's say 15 years.

15 years to get a fighter of the Rafale's standard for a nation like India is on the ambitious side to say the least, and this is 15 years from NOW- 2014- it is only in 2014 that with all the accumulated expertise and knowledge from the LCA could the ADA/DRDO/HAL even contemplate undertaking such a mammoth task. Back in 2001-7 even speculating about this would have been absurd.

The LCA has taken about 20 years to get to this point, the Rafale and EFT a bit more than that and something like the F-22 considerably more.

If India had thrown $20BN at making its own Rafale in 2001-7 it would have nothing to show for it even now, maybe not even in another decade.

We planned for the JF-17 since the mid 90's, 15 years on, we had it.

I'm sorry but the PAF's example with the JF-17 is very limited in the Indian context, it is not so dissimilar to what the IAF did with the MKI- limited design input, working with a more experienced partner and local production.

But Pakistan's history with the Thunder can hardly be compared to India's efforts with the LCA where pretty much every aspect of it has been designed, tested,refined and evaluated in-house.

Pakistan is where India was perhaps two decades ago, perhaps just a bit behind as India had significant experience in licence producing hundreds of a/c even 3 decades ago and was designing and indigenous helicopter 2 decades ago.

MMRCA was announced in 2007, it's already been 7 years, perhaps realistically another 2 years before the final arrangements are made and the first batches delivered.

The deal will be signed this year/early 2015 with delivers beginning in mid/late 2017.

Besides, you tell me, what's the time frame for local production, please do enlighten me

Local production of all 108 Rafales (first 18 will be built in France) will be complete by 2025 assuming the IAF doesn't exercise the clause for a follow on 63 which it is most likely do.

add that on from 2007 and tell me if you don't get a pretty little double digit figure.

That's about 18 years but, I repeat, India would not have been able to design,test and evaluate an aircraft up to the Rafale's standards by 2025 let alone produce 126 of the beasts.

The fact of the matter is, you import, a great chunk of money is leaving your economy and whether your industry gets a greater share of in a better deal, it's an opportunity cost foregone.

I understand very well about opportunity costs but, in this situation, the cost is justified. The IAF needs top of the line aircraft and can't afford to be inducting sub par a/c just because they are indigenous, one day in the not to distant future India WILL be able to manufacture products that rival those from the West because India is pursuing a simultaneous policy of investing in home grown R&D.

 

[Abingdonboy]

kit assembly. yes.
building/manufacturing? no.

Actually this is rather inaccurate. It is true the first tranche of 108 Rafales produced in India will be built from semi knocked down kits but as the tranches go on the Indian-sourced content will increase bit by bit until the last few tranches where every nut and bolt of the Rafale is manufactured in India even sourcing Indian raw materials to do so.

Best to buy both Rafale and work on making the Tejas more indigenous and more capable.

EXACTLY, what is being done.......

 

[Abingdonboy]

Rafale is never going to match J-20, instead of that invest in AFGA and AMCA

Rafale has become obsolete before induction agst J-20.

Some would question this assessment, it would be easy to overestimate the J-20 purely because the makers have designated it as a VLO, next generation fighter but what experience does China actually have in VLO/next generation technology? The US (the world's premier aerospace power) has been working on the F-22 for more than 3 decades, China significantly less.

The Rafale's electronics are world class and some would argue superior to the F-22s in certain ways. If the EA-18G is said to present a risk to the F-22 in certain combat tests due to its powerful electronics then there is clearly something to this theory.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Shelling out >20 Bill for 126 planes is simply too much for me. Its very difficult to justify such costly plane and then saying that MKI's life cycle costs is 3-4 times more than Rafale. The reality is no one knows exactly how much will this plane cost in its life time. Every hour of its flight costs ~15 K Dollars. So saying MKI costs 3-4 times more than this in life cycle costs seems too far fetched.

It's actually not hard to comprehend at all. Russian equipment has ALWAYS been more expensive to maintain over the course of their lives (life cycle costs) despite the initial unit cost being very low as compared to their Western counterparts- this is a categorical fact that the IAF, IN and IA can all attest to. Why do you think that Russian products keep losing out to Western ones in the Indian defence market (Mi-26-T2 to the Ch-47F, Mi-28N to the Ah-64E, IL-78 to A330 MRTT etc etc)?

And to top all this off the latest batch of MKIs that the IAF is getting (and all future MKIs would come as) aren't even that much cheaper than their Western counterparts anymore (around the $100 million mark) so it is a double whammy.

At a very basic level the Rafale costs around $13,000 USD per flight hour, the MKI around $26-28,000. Then all the associated life cycle support- Rafales can go more hours in between overhauls, spares are cheaper, they are designed to be inherently easier to maintain ( for e.g. a M88 engine can be dropped out and replaced in a few hours on a Rafale, I am told a similar job would take the best part of a day on an MKI), a Rafale can be serviced and maintained pretty much at its home base by its Squadron's engineers but an MKI would have to go to the IAF's Base Repair Depots for similar service. Have no doubt the IAF would get far greater use out of their Rafales than their MKIs.


And for the last time it is NOT $20+ Billion but $16 Billion as of a few months ago. And I've explained that for $16 Billion you are getting a lot more than "just" 126 planes.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Until the deal is signed, no one can claim that the whole package will come in $16Bill.

From a few months ago (the most recent semi-official price stated- you realise the $20+ BN figure is a sheer fabrication of the Indian media and always has been, right?)

Mr Jaitley had only one query: what is the cost of the contract?

The IAF's answer --Rs. 100,000 crore spread over 10 years -- immediately evoked a positive reaction from Mr Jaitley, sources in the Ministry of Defence told NDTV

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/in...t-s-nod-549799

That's about $15-16BN USD

 

[cirr]

India needs a western sanction to get its act together。