Sophistication of Indian tech is now sufficient to build a Rafale

[Gessler]

I have read his post. And I am sorry to say its full of speculations as well. Until the deal is signed, no one can claim that the whole package will come in $16Bill. If Brazil's acquisition of Gripen is considered, we can easily guess that 126 Rafales with Spares, "100%" TOT, Training and weapons will certainly cost more than than, much more than that. And if last few deals with France is any indication, we can be certain that by the time Rafale enters IAF, we will be shelling out even more.

Not to forget the TOT which will come with this will be as useful in developing MCA as MKI has been in developing LCA.

So what? After all we're getting one of the best fighter jets in the world.

 

[MilSpec]

India needs to ditch rafale and pak-fa. It will save you about $40 Billion. Rope in foreign partners to develop LCA and AMCA jointly. India has the smarts to make it happen while keeping the R&D for future use. This is a bold step for which the biggest resistence will come from IAF which frankly and seriously needs to ground those widow making Migs and put them out of service.

Reduced numbers of fighter squadrons is a reality IAF brass needs to make peace with, its a chronic problem which is here to stay for the next decade. Even if India signs Rafale deal in 015, those jets won't complete delivery till 2020-21.

The integration of the jet into operations is a whole different game. Unlike your 50cc scooter, a Rafale would have to be adopted, integrated, tested and tested again, pilots and ground staff would have to be re trained, new gear would come and ultimately new tactics would have to be developed to use the jet for the reason it was bought for.

For a Pro organization like IAF it may not be an unchartered territory but throw in the Tejas, FGFA, Mirage H, Fulcurum SMT, Sukhoi upgrade, C-130s, C-17s and possibly Chinooks and Apahe's in the same regime and my opinion becomes visible.

The technology infrastructure just doesn't exist. From major subsytems like Engines, Radar, CNC Texture weavers, FLIR, to smaller systems like actuators, load cells, US transducers, Opto-electronics, metallurgy, ... It will take years to develop the technological environment to support multiple tech projects efficiently in India. ToT is a rather recent (last 3 decades) phenomenon and will set up the indigenous industry to take up technological challenges, the PIII implementation of AL alloy stampings, Air fame structure, in house designed servos and Actuators, and mission electronics for MKi is a prime example.

IAF cannot wait for another 15 years to get decent jets, and Rafale was evalauted as the best option for the IAF... Making strides in aeronautics is uphill task for any developing country, In another 10-20 years, we will see better results, just like we are seeing the achivements of ISRO today, due to the investments made throught the last two decades in the organisation.

 

[UKBengali]

Almost ~300 new engines were ordered as recently as 2011 for MKK/J-11 variants as well as J-10 variants.

Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines | Aviation International News

Multiple production-standard J-10Bs have already been seen with AL-31s as well...but let's not deviate from the thread.

So what??? China has 100s of J-10s/j-11A/SU-27 and SU-30 that were designed to use AL-31F-series engines. Chinese are unlikely to want to go through the expense of trying to convert the airframe to fit Ws-10X when AL-31 is easily available.

J-10Bs using AL-31 proves nothing as China is producing plenty of J-11B and J-16 fighters using WS-10X-series engines. It is more a production issue rather than thrust or reliability issue.

Let us not deviate from topic but don't think you can make a statement like that and not be challenged on it

 

[saurav]

Bhai it is very much difficult to explain this to people. They are hell bent to get Rafale at what ever the cost be.

Yes... And that exactly is what the import lobby in Delhi propagates to every Indian. We are always told that we are 20-30 years behind West. Last time I checked, we were already developing a costly SU-50 with Russia. Is there really need for another super costly Rafale..? Even if we sign the deal in early 2015, earliest Rafale will come in 2017. And it will take atleast 2 more years for local production to begin. Now if LCA-II is ordered in quantity and sub systems are procured, even LCA-II will start rolling out in 2020. Why waste so much money for a plane which we did not even originally want to procure( when MRCA was MRCA not MMRCA )..?

 

[Gessler]

Let us not deviate from topic but don't think you can make a statement like that and not be challenged on it

You aren't fully informed on Chinese engine developments, that's one thing.

Second, what do you mean a "statement like that"? It is a perfect example. Why does China have to spend money
on more AL-31s instead of WS-10?

You must have also known that WS-10 is not yet cleared for operation on
carrier-based J-15s (only 2 land-based prototypes have it)...I can ask why China should spend money on AL-31
for J-15...instead of spending that money on indigenous effort & waiting for WS-10 to be reliable enough to power
carrier-based aircraft?

 

[Gessler]

Yes... And that exactly is what the import lobby in Delhi propagates to every Indian. We are always told that we are 20-30 years behind West. Last time I checked, we were already developing a costly SU-50 with Russia. Is there really need for another super costly Rafale..? Even if we sign the deal in early 2015, earliest Rafale will come in 2017. And it will take atleast 2 more years for local production to begin. Now if LCA-II is ordered in quantity and sub systems are procured, even LCA-II will start rolling out in 2020. Why waste so much money for a plane which we did not even originally want to procure( when MRCA was MRCA not MMRCA )..?

It's possible for you to write a direct letter to the IAF if you want.

 

[Raul_AD]

Yes... And that exactly is what the import lobby in Delhi propagates to every Indian. We are always told that we are 20-30 years behind West. Last time I checked, we were already developing a costly SU-50 with Russia. Is there really need for another super costly Rafale..? Even if we sign the deal in early 2015, earliest Rafale will come in 2017. And it will take atleast 2 more years for local production to begin. Now if LCA-II is ordered in quantity and sub systems are procured, even LCA-II will start rolling out in 2020. Why waste so much money for a plane which we did not even originally want to procure( when MRCA was MRCA not MMRCA )..?

They wanted to buy Mirages but selected Rafale still they want to upgrade Mirages.

Take my word. LCA-MK-II will jump ahead upgraded Mirage and will be much more sophisticated then Mirage.

Sorry Rafale is will not arrive in 2017 it will take atleast 2018-19.

 

[saurav]

It's possible for you to write a direct letter to the IAF if you want.

Not really. I dont know anyone in the decision making process. So best I can do is put forward my POV on an open forum.

 

[saurav]

They wanted to buy Mirages but selected Rafale still they want to upgrade Mirages.

Take my word. LCA-MK-II will jump ahead upgraded Mirage and will be much more sophisticated then Mirage.

Sorry Rafale is will not arrive in 2017 it will take atleast 2018-19.

Of course LCA-II will be better than upgraded Mirage. Even upgrading a Mirage costs >40 Mill.. I am sure LCA-II will come within $50 Mill. How exactly is an import justified, I cant fathom.

 

[UKBengali]

You aren't fully informed on Chinese engine developments, that's one thing.

Second, what do you mean a "statement like that"? It is a perfect example. Why does China have to spend money
on more AL-31s instead of WS-10?

You must have also known that WS-10 is not yet cleared for operation on
carrier-based J-15s (only 2 land-based prototypes have it)...I can ask why China should spend money on AL-31
for J-15...instead of spending that money on indigenous effort & waiting for WS-10 to be reliable enough to power
carrier-based aircraft?

Have you any idea how many WS-10X-series engines that China would need to buy each year if it gave up using Al-31?

1. Let us say it produces around 75 J-11B/J-15 and J-16 aircraft - that would make it 150 engines.
2. Say Chinese need around 100 engines a year to replace old engines in J-10A/J-11A/SU-27 and Su-30
3. Also say 50 are required for new build J-10A/J-10B

That is 300 130KN+ thrust engines. Only the US and the Russians have that kind of capability to produce so many of these engines with the quality required. China is not yet experienced enough to produce so many WS-10X series engines just yet, but give it time and they will prefect the art of engine manufacture.

The Chinese simply have no need to risk expensive planes and pilots rushing production of the required hundreds of WS-10X engines, when the Russians are more than happy to supply the AL-31 at reasonable cost.

 

[Raul_AD]

Of course LCA-II will be better than upgraded Mirage. Even upgrading a Mirage costs >40 Mill.. I am sure LCA-II will come within $50 Mill. How exactly is an import justified, I cant fathom.

I cannot understand when you have timeline for Tejas MK-I, Tejas MK-II, FGFA, AMCA lined and SU-MKI already in hand up why you need Rafale?????

 

[Raul_AD]

Have you any idea how many WS-10X-series engines that China would need to buy each year if it gave up using Al-31?

1. Let us say it produces around 75 J-11B/J-15 and J-16 aircraft - that would make it 150 engines.
2. Say Chinese need around 100 engines a year to replace old engines in J-10A/J-11A/SU-27 and Su-30
3. Also say 50 are required for new build J-10A/J-10B

That is 300 130KN+ thrust engines. Only the US and the Russians have that kind of capability to produce so many of these engines with the quality required. China is not yet experienced enough to produce many WS-10X series engines just yet but give it time and they will prefect the art of engine manufacture.

The Chinese simply have no need to risk expensive planes and pilots rushing production of the required hundreds of WS-10X engines, when the Russians are more than happy to supply the AL-31 at reasonable cost.

Yes Indians have to accept this that the Chinese are getting ahead in Engine Technology and its just matter of 5-6 years they would not need Russian Engines any more.

 

[UKBengali]

Yes Indians have to accept this that the Chinese are getting ahead in Engine Technology and its just matter of 5-6 years they would not need Russian Engines any more.

Yes by 2020 China will be completely free of dependence on Russia engines.

 

[mike2000]

Of course they will provide TOT. But that will be just enough to manufacture Rafale. Whether it will help us in developing our own products based on TOT is the real question. I am sure we wont be able to use that TOT for domestic purposes.

I for one do not trust France for these deals. They will always ask humongous amounts for Mid-Life upgrades ( just like Mirage ). They may even jack up price midway ( ala Scorpene). They had agreed to work on Kaveri and ended up suggesting we import Core from them. We are supposed to co-develop Shakti Engine with the, what they did with LUH is also well known.

Bro while i agree with you, i must say its not just France, every major power in this world will never sell you their engine tech, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PAY for it, not even your so called 'best friends' as your Indian brothers here call Russia.lol Engine tech is the most advanced tech a country can possess and takes decades of R&D/cash/capital/manpower/skills/knowledge/resources/industries etc to develope a reliable engine. And you think after all these a country will just hand you their engine tech for some few billions? lool Nope it will never happen. India should stop trying to look for a short cut, invest and develope your own engines, it will take time yes, but at the end it will be worth it, afterall, no country will fight a war with India anytime soon. So i dont see why you people are in a hurry anyway. Take your time and make your own weapons systems.

 

[atatwolf]

Really? LOL