Since Earliest Historical Times Hinduism Was Never Popular in Pakistan

[Thirdfront]

1. I meant that not just Indra, but all Devas are seen as demons in the Avesta. Hope you also know that Indra also meant a honorific title. Indra's epithet, Verethragna, meanwhile is highly revered in the Avesta. I don't know how you come to the conclusion without even a shred of evidence that all other RigVedic Gods are borrowed from IVC. Can you produce at least one such evidence? (Your Pashupathi hypothesis has already been addressed). To me, the RigVedic tribes were perfectly capable of conjuring up all those Gods themselves. I will stick to this version unless there is some evidence that an IVC diety was merged into their pantheon of Gods. Lack of places of worship in IVC cities plus lack of any godly figurine that was repeatedly found in all cities are something you should ponder about.

2. Name one God which has been proven to have been adopted from local Indian cultures into the Vedas and I'm ready to accept your theory.

3. See for yourself on the internet regarding Swastika. It's found in all Eurasian and European cultures. Armenian, Greek, Roman, Celtic, Germanic, Slavic & Nordic petroglyphs, coins, marker-stones etc have had the swastika for nearly as long as we've had them here. Genetic studies indicate that since around 10000BC, the native Indians have not migrated outside, but tribes from Central Asia have migrated into India. So please explain how reverse-migration of the Swastika took place into Eurasia and Europe.

4. As I have said earlier-Hindu identity is built upon the veneration/exploration of Vedas and subsequent liturgical texts spawned thereafter. Please tell me how many sects fall outside this definition. I hope you don't again quote the Nastikas i.e Buddhism and Jainism!

1. It is not my theory. Eg: Dravidian Gods in Modern Hinduism: A Study of the Local and Village Deitites by Wilbur. If you ask for proof, nope... no proof that can with stand scrutiny with mathematical standard. But that is true for anything and everything in history. However, general experience is quite abundant and evident. None of the known religions (well, except scientology, may be) just sprang up a god overnight. Indra to be hounorific title etc are much later evolution. Evidences are plenty and there to see. Even today, how many gods/daemons are worshipped across india with all vedic hymns and procedures? lot many of them have even made up stories connecting to some know diety of vedas. Many examples are illustrated in the book I mentioned.. there are lot many if you search. Interssting fact - Do you know there is a god named Murungu in Africa? And popular name of Siva in Tamil is Murugan...

2. What proof are you looking for? A text or inscription stating some local god was promoted to vedas? Well, can you prove the non Indo-Aryan gods were just made up by rigvedic tribes all by themselves?

3. Non of them auspicious significance. most of them simple designs. In fact, almost all of them are not standalone swatikas but patterns. To export some idea, no need for population exchange. Indians invented decimal system which is used all over the world. Did Indians migrate to every nook and corner to spread them?

4. I am asking you again, what is the basis, source of your definition? I say hindus are those who walk on their hands or all humans are born hindus. Will you accept it? Buddhisma nd Jainism are nastikas. There are nastika sect within Hinduism (followers of sage Charvaka) that do not accept any vedas, not even teachings of Budda and jainism (as they have concept of karma and moksha). There are many tribes who don't follow some of the most sacred tenets of the vedic teachings (they eat cows)..

 

[Nassr]

Is there any rule that Sanskrit can't borrow letters from others?? For your kind information, languages are not written, scripts are. So, if some one writes Sanskrit in persian, sanskrit will also be written from right to left. Om is a symbol, single letter, like swastika.
Mehrgarh may be in present day pakistan, but it wasn't in pakistan 5000 years ago (there was no pakistan back then, remember?). What I am asking is earliest mention of the term "Pakistan". History of pakistan starts from that time...

I am pasting the word OM as written in Devanagari script and the famous IVC OM seal. We can stretch our imagination:

The earliest mention of Republic of India and Pakistan can be carbon dated to Aug 1947. Before that, it was British India, before that it was Mughal India or Muslim India and before that there was no India but there was Meluhha, a landmass which is over 9000 years old and the descendants of Meluhha proudly renamed it as Pakistan in 1947. Much much later, the Greeks started calling the geographical areas east of River Indus and its delta, as India. How old is this land of yours, please find it out yourself. Thank you.

 

[Nassr]

In continuation of my post at 698.

Supported by Indian Brahmin accounts of destruction of the famous Nalanda Buddhist University by Muslims, many scholars believe that it was destroyed by Bakhtiar Khilji. However, an Indian Hindu himself has stated the truth in a book he wrote in 1965, that it were Hindus who destroyed this university.

Prakash, Buddh,in his book "Aspects of Indian History and Civilisation", Agra 1965, states that Nalanda was destroyed by Hindu zealots. He adds that, even after the Islamic invasions of India, Brahmanist bigotry and hatred for Buddhists was not subdued. According to Sharmasvamin, a Tibetan pilgrim who visited Bihar three decades after the invasion of Bakhtiaruddin Khilji in the 12th century, the biggest library at Nalanda was destroyed by Hindu mendicants who took advantage of the chaos produced by the invasion. He says that "they (Hindus) performed a Yajna, a fire sacrifice, and threw living embers and ashes from the sacrifice into the Buddhist temples. This produced a great conflagration which consumed Ratnabodhi, the nine-storeyed library of the Nalanda University".


Interestingly, this was not the only time Nalanda Buddhist University was destroyed. It was also destroyed by the Hindu Huna King Mihirakula in a war fought between Narasimha Gupta and Mihirakula.

This was a declaration of war on the part of the Gupta sovereign. The Huna king accepted the challenge, entered the kingdom of Magadha and pursued Narasimha Gupta till the bay of Bengal. In the course of this campaign Mihirakula at the head of his army had to pass very near the university of Nalanda, for he first undoubtedly marched on Pataliputra, and only when he realized that the Gupta sovereign had fled towards the sea then he continued his march till the bay of Bengal. This inroad of the Huna army was bound to be fatal to the kingdom of Magadha and specially to the Buddhist religion then protected and patronized by the Gupta monarchs. Mihirakula, beyond doubt, in his hatred of Buddhism destroyed all its buildings that he found in his way, and killed all its priests-- cruelties which he was shortly afterwards to repeat in his exile of Kashmir. Nalanda University was not far from the capital, Pataliputra, and its fame had also reached Mihirakula's ears. The buildings of Nalanda were then probably destroyed for the first time, and its priests and students dispersed and perhaps kiled.

The Royal Patrons of the University of Nalanda

The university was later rebuilt after its first destruction and yet destroyed again by the Brahmins.

 

[Indischer]

1. It is not my theory. Eg: Dravidian Gods in Modern Hinduism: A Study of the Local and Village Deitites by Wilbur. If you ask for proof, nope... no proof that can with stand scrutiny with mathematical standard. But that is true for anything and everything in history. However, general experience is quite abundant and evident. None of the known religions (well, except scientology, may be) just sprang up a god overnight. Indra to be hounorific title etc are much later evolution. Evidences are plenty and there to see. Even today, how many gods/daemons are worshipped across india with all vedic hymns and procedures? lot many of them have even made up stories connecting to some know diety of vedas. Many examples are illustrated in the book I mentioned.. there are lot many if you search. Interssting fact - Do you know there is a god named Murungu in Africa? And popular name of Siva in Tamil is Murugan...

2. What proof are you looking for? A text or inscription stating some local god was promoted to vedas? Well, can you prove the non Indo-Aryan gods were just made up by rigvedic tribes all by themselves?

3. Non of them auspicious significance. most of them simple designs. In fact, almost all of them are not standalone swatikas but patterns. To export some idea, no need for population exchange. Indians invented decimal system which is used all over the world. Did Indians migrate to every nook and corner to spread them?

4. I am asking you again, what is the basis, source of your definition? I say hindus are those who walk on their hands or all humans are born hindus. Will you accept it? Buddhisma nd Jainism are nastikas. There are nastika sect within Hinduism (followers of sage Charvaka) that do not accept any vedas, not even teachings of Budda and jainism (as they have concept of karma and moksha). There are many tribes who don't follow some of the most sacred tenets of the vedic teachings (they eat cows)..

1. Most of the local dieties that are worshipped in India are also shown as embodiments/epithets of Vedic deities. Your Ex: Murugan/Karthikeya in Tamil Nadu is Subramanya in Karnataka.But both are epithets of Kumaran, a deity mentioned in the AtharvanaVeda. If both are seperate local deities, their origin stories ought to have been different. But it's cited as the same in both regions. Also, Indra was always a honorific title. I'd also say that if a God has a temple, rest assured that some Vedic/Puranic chanting will take place in his honour.

2. The fact that all Rig-Vedic Gods have been written about in a RigVedic Text is the proof. Since no IVC site has offered any leads to their religion, the RigVedic tribes cannot be accused of plagiarism just yet.

3. Dude, you do know what a swastika means in Sanskrit, right? Su asti iti Swastikaha-That which brings Good. It was basically a Lucky charm, at least for the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Now, is there any rule that if one Indo-European tribe thought of this lucky charm/symbol as auspicious, every other tribe has to see it that way??

4. I already told you about my take on Hinduism. Any form of worship based on the Vedic texts and their derived body of theological texts would constitute Hinduism. Even in the Murugan and Ayyanar temples, what do the priests chant during his worship?

Dude, you are free to hold on to your beliefs. I have no problems with that. I try to see our religion as objectively as possible.I respect the years of painstaking research done by various scholars and make it a point to get divergent views and go with the one which presents the strongest logical evidence. My views, I've presented in the best way I could. Prolonging this might not be productive any more as we seem stuck to our convictions. Thanks for your contributions.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Guys move on.

Modern day India and Pakistan date back to 1947.

Our region is part of many cultures and cvilizations.

Why to become hitler/Nazi and try to make one people out of a diverse land.


Enjoy your life around Ganga valley

And let us have fun around Indus valley.

Thank you

 

[Thirdfront]

I am pasting the word OM as written in Devanagari script and the famous IVC OM seal. We can stretch our imagination:

View attachment 10968
The earliest mention of Republic of India and Pakistan can be carbon dated to Aug 1947. Before that, it was British India, before that it was Mughal India or Muslim India and before that there was no India but there was Meluhha, a landmass which is over 9000 years old and the descendants of Meluhha proudly renamed it as Pakistan in 1947. Much much later, the Greeks started calling the geographical areas east of River Indus and its delta, as India. How old is this land of yours, please find it out yourself. Thank you.

Now rotate the image in the left by 90 degree anti-clockwise. Who is talking about republic of India? I am talking about just India or Bharatvarsha as called by natives. when was that first mentioned? Nobody knows where is Meluhha.. location is unknown. IVC is just one candidate. Even if IVC was Meluhha, it referred to Lothal in present day India as it was the only port of IVC. Sorry to burst your bubble. But you are right about Pakistan though. It's history starts from 1947 or couple of decades earlier. Land of mine is 4.5 billion years old, like everybody else's, if you did not already. There was no Mughal India or Muslim India as a place. Nobody said "hey, I am going to Mughal India today". Show any reference to Mughal India or as usual did you pull this from your behind?? Next, majority Pakistanis are not descendants of IVC. During decline, IVC moved into present day India and Gangetic plains. Some minor patches/tribes would have remained there, probably like Brahui might have remained there. other than that, there is no evidence to support present day pakistanis are IVC descendants. This may be another thing you pull out of thin air.

 

[FaujHistorian]

..... Land of mine is 4.5 billion years old,.

People who don't know the name of their forefathers from 4 or 5 generation ago

People who abandoned INdia and sit in comfy apartments in the West

sadly show up on internet boards

And start claiming and shouting and hollering "land of mine", "land of mine", "land of mine", "land of mine", land mine, mine mine mine mine kumpf.

hahahahahah

 

[Thirdfront]

1. Most of the local dieties that are worshipped in India are also shown as embodiments/epithets of Vedic deities. Your Ex: Murugan/Karthikeya in Tamil Nadu is Subramanya in Karnataka.But both are epithets of Kumaran, a deity mentioned in the AtharvanaVeda. If both are seperate local deities, their origin stories ought to have been different. But it's cited as the same in both regions. Also, Indra was always a honorific title. I'd also say that if a God has a temple, rest assured that some Vedic/Puranic chanting will take place in his honour.

2. The fact that all Rig-Vedic Gods have been written about in a RigVedic Text is the proof. Since no IVC site has offered any leads to their religion, the RigVedic tribes cannot be accused of plagiarism just yet.

3. Dude, you do know what a swastika means in Sanskrit, right? Su asti iti Swastikaha-That which brings Good. It was basically a Lucky charm, at least for the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Now, is there any rule that if one Indo-European tribe thought of this lucky charm/symbol as auspicious, every other tribe has to see it that way??

4. I already told you about my take on Hinduism. Any form of worship based on the Vedic texts and their derived body of theological texts would constitute Hinduism. Even in the Murugan and Ayyanar temples, what do the priests chant during his worship?

Dude, you are free to hold on to your beliefs. I have no problems with that. I try to see our religion as objectively as possible.I respect the years of painstaking research done by various scholars and make it a point to get divergent views and go with the one which presents the strongest logical evidence. My views, I've presented in the best way I could. Prolonging this might not be productive any more as we seem stuck to our convictions. Thanks for your contributions.

1. Did you read the books that I posted? No they weren't from Veda, but it is reverse order. They were included into it. It is similar why lot of pagan traditions (including Dec 25) were included into christianity. Alsothere were no Karnataka and Tamilnadu back then.

2. No. Shiva was not mentioned (in rigveda). Character of Rudra plus some thing became Shiva. Likewise, Kali wasn't in Rigveda.

3. If common origin, yes. If not then no.

4. I know. But major problem faced by all the scholars is to fit a population into a definition that originated 1000s of year later. We need to understand that before making any sweeping comments...

People who don't know the name of their forefathers from 4 or 5 generation ago

People who abandoned INdia and sit in comfy apartments in the West

sadly show up on internet boards

And start claiming and shouting and hollering "land of mine", "land of mine", "land of mine", "land of mine", land mine, mine mine mine mine kumpf.

hahahahahah

First, I did not abandon anything, I have to go vrious places for my profession. Second, I may not know my forefathers from 6 generation (I know till 5) but I surely know where is my preset day land/home. Can you translate mein kumf into arabic please? (hint: jihad)

 

[FaujHistorian]

.... I may not know my forefathers from 6 generation (I know till 5) but I surely know where is my preset day land/home. .....

Your land or your home is really what you or your parents bought.

Any claim beyond that is just poetry.

 

[Thirdfront]

Your land or your home is really what you or your parents bought.

Any claim beyond that is just poetry.

I will have to ask you not to assume anything. I have my own property. I did not get the arabic translation I requested.....

 

[bronxbull]

Pagan is a very broad term and depends what your definition of paganism is. Hindu weird practices and beliefs would be last one to make some sense especially for those who don't live in India. Hinduism is not a universal religion and it will be alien for outsiders as they cannot relate to it. You guys are good entertainer for outsiders . Yea Its common sense to consider cow as mata and bull as pita and buffalo as grand mother lol and worshiping rats/snakes/plants, baby tossing etc.

Modern Hinduism is a joke as you can do anything you want and still claim to be Hindu. You can also be atheist and Hindu at the same times. Religion should be like Islam which dominated the world and different cultures in such short time span and spread in every corner of the world in Asia, Africa, Middle eat, Europe. I am sure it give you pain that people whose ancestors were non Muslims/pagans/idols worshiper /Buddhist/Zoroastrians etc show more loyalty towards Islam but that's how Islam dominate the lives of Muslims.

we are intellectually superior to all of you,have always been.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I will have to ask you not to assume anything. I have my own property. I did not get the arabic translation I requested.....

checkout your favorite Mullah for Arabic translation

Congrats for owning your property. Take care of it.

Don't do empty poetry about distant lands.

Thank you

 

[Black Widow]

@Black Widow

Ahm So the Believers of Islam are Animals because they believe God but Hindus are normal in case of believing rats ?

My dear Muslim,

You didn't understand my post. Just understand the idea behind worship.
why ppl worship. There r 2 ideas behind this a) They are afraid of something b) They are gratitude of something which helps them.

Islam prohibit questioning, It says "Only one God, only one book, don't question them". The evolution stop when Human stop questioning.

@rat Worship: There must be some story behind that temple.. It may not be worship, its just one act of random kindness. The Hindu society was agriculture based society so killing of animal was not so common.

While Islam is desert born religion, it has full space for violence, war , rape , crime etc..

 

[Thirdfront]

checkout your favorite Mullah for Arabic translation

Congrats for owning your property. Take care of it.

Don't do empty poetry about distant lands.

Thank you

Which distant land and what empty poetry? What are you smoking?

 

[Vinod2070]

@Vinod2070 Remember a poster named Ticker. He used to talk like this.

Someone issuffering from identity crisis. And here you are making his life even more worse.

Yes, seems to be new Avatar of that guy.

And Avatar is very much a Dharmic concept. So there you go.