Since Earliest Historical Times Hinduism Was Never Popular in Pakistan

[Indischer]

Now rotate the image in the left by 90 degree anti-clockwise. Who is talking about republic of India? I am talking about just India or Bharatvarsha as called by natives. when was that first mentioned? Nobody knows where is Meluhha.. location is unknown. IVC is just one candidate. Even if IVC was Meluhha, it referred to Lothal in present day India as it was the only port of IVC. Sorry to burst your bubble. But you are right about Pakistan though. It's history starts from 1947 or couple of decades earlier. Land of mine is 4.5 billion years old, like everybody else's, if you did not already. There was no Mughal India or Muslim India as a place. Nobody said "hey, I am going to Mughal India today". Show any reference to Mughal India or as usual did you pull this from your behind?? Next, majority Pakistanis are not descendants of IVC. During decline, IVC moved into present day India and Gangetic plains. Some minor patches/tribes would have remained there, probably like Brahui might have remained there. other than that, there is no evidence to support present day pakistanis are IVC descendants. This may be another thing you pull out of thin air.

So, any image of a bow and arrow from IVC is sufficient to say OM was their symbol? It's pathetic the lengths to which we go to prove such fringe theories.
The vocabulary of the Brahui contains nearly 80% loanwords from Balochi today. These loanwords though, aren't more than a 1000 years old, meaning it's speakers moved there only a 1000 years back. Even if the residents of IVC did speak a Dravidian language, the Brahui aren't their descendents.

 

[Thirdfront]

So, any image of a bow and arrow from IVC is sufficient to say OM was their symbol? It's pathetic the lengths to which we go to prove such fringe theories.
The vocabulary of the Brahui contains nearly 80% loanwords from Balochi today. These loanwords though, aren't more than a 1000 years old, meaning it's speakers moved there only a 1000 years back. Even if the residents of IVC did speak a Dravidian language, the Brahui aren't their descendents.

It is definitely not bow and arrow. Bow is not in any way connected to peepal tree. Again regarding Brahui, they may be the possible candidates. Other observations like loan words can be explained based on when contact with balochi people were established. There might be chances that this contact happened 1000 years ago..

 

[Indischer]

It is definitely not bow and arrow. Bow is not in any way connected to peepal tree. Again regarding Brahui, they may be the possible candidates. Other observations like loan words can be explained based on when contact with balochi people were established. There might be chances that this contact happened 1000 years ago..

So, the bow is definitely not connected to a peepal tree, but most certainly connected to OM? Maybe you also have an intuition as to why the Aryans decided to remove the peepal tree altogether from that "OM" and decided to stick a big, curvy tail onto it??
The Baloch have stayed there for 2500 years now. So, you mean to say the Brahui were right next to the Baloch, conserved their language when everyone around them abandoned it, somehow did not pick any loanwords for at least a 1500 years and then suddenly replaced 80% their vocabulary with Balochi? Do you realize how stupid that sounds?It's like saying the Roma were always in Europe, somehow clung to their Indic language when everyone around them abandoned it, but decided to include Greek and Slavic loanwords only from 8th century AD onwards.
As I said before, when faith moves beyond spirituality into other domains, there's only so much one can say or do.

 

[KRAIT]

Guys just admit it, Pakistan was divided and India was formed. Not India was divided and Pakistan was formed.

Meanwhile read some great works of various European and Chinese travelers. You will find it more interesting.

 

[Thirdfront]

So, the bow is definitely not connected to a peepal tree, but most certainly connected to OM? Maybe you also have an intuition as to why the Aryans decided to remove the peepal tree altogether from that "OM" and decided to stick a big, curvy tail onto it??
The Baloch have stayed there for 2500 years now. So, you mean to say the Brahui were right next to the Baloch, conserved their language when everyone around them abandoned it, somehow did not pick any loanwords for at least a 1500 years and then suddenly replaced 80% their vocabulary with Balochi? Do you realize how stupid that sounds?It's like saying the Roma were always in Europe, somehow clung to their Indic language when everyone around them abandoned it, but decided to include Greek and Slavic loanwords only from 8th century AD onwards.
As I said before, when faith moves beyond spirituality into other domains, there's only so much one can say or do.

It is not replaced. It is quite common even today to write OM on a peepal tree leaf. About Brahui people, it is nothing that I am making it for myself, but the opinion of scholars. See wiki for yourself - "The main Iranian contributor to Brahui vocabulary, Balochi, is a Northwestern Iranian language, and moved to the area from the west only around 1000 CE." It is from Witzel, one of the most respected historian of present day. So your assumption that Baloch were always there in the vicinity is utterly wrong.

 

[Indischer]

It is not replaced. It is quite common even today to write OM on a peepal tree leaf. About Brahui people, it is nothing that I am making it for myself, but the opinion of scholars. See wiki for yourself - "The main Iranian contributor to Brahui vocabulary, Balochi, is a Northwestern Iranian language, and moved to the area from the west only around 1000 CE." It is from Witzel, one of the most respected historian of present day. So your assumption that Baloch were always there in the vicinity is utterly wrong.

Dude, Balochi is one of the oldest Iranian languages and the Baloch had already moved to the area by the time of Alexander's conquest of Persia!They're described as the inhabitants of the satrapy of Gedrosia, which had been conquered and annexed to the Persian empire by Cyrus II in around 540 BC. It's the Brahui who've moved there around 1000AD.

 

[Nassr]

Now rotate the image in the left by 90 degree anti-clockwise. Who is talking about republic of India? I am talking about just India or Bharatvarsha as called by natives. when was that first mentioned? Nobody knows where is Meluhha.. location is unknown. IVC is just one candidate. Even if IVC was Meluhha, it referred to Lothal in present day India as it was the only port of IVC. Sorry to burst your bubble. But you are right about Pakistan though. It's history starts from 1947 or couple of decades earlier. Land of mine is 4.5 billion years old, like everybody else's, if you did not already. There was no Mughal India or Muslim India as a place. Nobody said "hey, I am going to Mughal India today". Show any reference to Mughal India or as usual did you pull this from your behind?? Next, majority Pakistanis are not descendants of IVC. During decline, IVC moved into present day India and Gangetic plains. Some minor patches/tribes would have remained there, probably like Brahui might have remained there. other than that, there is no evidence to support present day pakistanis are IVC descendants. This may be another thing you pull out of thin air.

Turn it any-which way you want, the result would still be imagination stretched obscurantist smitten obstinacy with pigheadedness personified.

Balakot, Sutkagen Dor and Sokhta Koh were the main harbours along Sindh and Balochistan coasts from where sea trade was conducted by the people of IVC and there was of-course your favourite Lothal, the only IVC harbor in India.

The confusion between Magan and Meluhha has been resolved since long. Meluhha is the universally accepted landmass of the IVC.

And nobody on earth would ever say, hey I am going to Bharatvarsh as it means the whole earth. The aliens may use it while traversing between intergalactic destinations.

During the declining moments of IVC, some movement of people took place from south to north within the IVC and not India as there was none that existed at that time, blasphemous as it may sound. The movement of IVC people in that era to Gangetic plains is a later Indian concoction like Rajaram’s horse-play, and not a reality.

The mere fact that a large majority of Pakistanis are different from the Indians in class, caste and creed, is a clear indication that they are the original descendants of the IVC and not the Indians.

Your land obviously is still 4.5 billion years old and it shows.

 

[Thirdfront]

Turn it any-which way you want, the result would still be imagination stretched obscurantist smitten obstinacy with pigheadedness personified.

Balakot, Sutkagen Dor and Sokhta Koh were the main harbours along Sindh and Balochistan coasts from where sea trade was conducted by the people of IVC and there was of-course your favourite Lothal, the only IVC harbor in India.

The confusion between Magan and Meluhha has been resolved since long. Meluhha is the universally accepted landmass of the IVC.

And nobody on earth would ever say, hey I am going to Bharatvarsh as it means the whole earth. The aliens may use it while traversing between intergalactic destinations.

During the declining moments of IVC, some movement of people took place from south to north within the IVC and not India as there was none that existed at that time, blasphemous as it may sound. The movement of IVC people in that era to Gangetic plains is a later Indian concoction like Rajaram’s horse-play, and not a reality.

The mere fact that a large majority of Pakistanis are different from the Indians in class, caste and creed, is a clear indication that they are the original descendants of the IVC and not the Indians.

Your land obviously is still 4.5 billion years old and it shows.

Except Lothal, show me one link of another port city in IVC. Once again you are pulling something from your behind to justify something that isn't justifiable. Link for confirmation of Meluhha else that is also something you made up.

As for your denial of eastward movement (yes, you pulled south to north movement from your a@@), since you seem not to know anything about IVC, I am pasting a small para from wiki - "A research team led by the geologist Liviu Giosan of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution also concluded that climate change in form of the easterward migration of the monsoons led to the decline of the IVC.[84] The team's findings were published in PNAS in May 2012.[85][86] According to their theory, the slow eastward migration of the monsoons across Asia initially allowed the civilization to develop. The monsoon-supported farming led to large agricultural surpluses, which in turn supported the development of cities. The IVC residents did not develop irrigation capabilities, relying mainly on the seasonal monsoons. As the monsoons kept shifting eastward, the water supply for the agricultural activities dried up. The residents then migrated towards the Ganges basin in the east, where they established smaller villages and isolated farms. The small surplus produced in these small communities did not allow development of trade, and the cities died out."

Bharatavarsha is entire world? Link to support your assertion??

Dude, Balochi is one of the oldest Iranian languages and the Baloch had already moved to the area by the time of Alexander's conquest of Persia!They're described as the inhabitants of the satrapy of Gedrosia, which had been conquered and annexed to the Persian empire by Cyrus II in around 540 BC. It's the Brahui who've moved there around 1000AD.

Dude, I just posted a link showing what a renowned archaeologist has to say about it. If you are more knowledgeable than him on the subject, please publish a paper to refute him and then post a link here, I would be glad to take a look at it.

 

[Indischer]

Dude, I just posted a link showing what a renowned archaeologist has to say about it. If you are more knowledgeable than him on the subject, please publish a paper to refute him and then post a link here, I would be glad to take a look at it.

All that you posted was a Wiki article on Iranian Languages! Where was Witzel's assertion that supported your theory in it?

 

[Thirdfront]

All that you posted was a Wiki article on Iranian Languages! Where was Witzel's assertion that supported your theory in it?

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/IndusLang.pdf

He quotes another article summary of which can be found here:
BRAHUI – Encyclopaedia Iranica

 

[Indischer]

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/IndusLang.pdf

He quotes another article summary of which can be found here:
BRAHUI – Encyclopaedia Iranica

"In support of the Dravidian theory one usually pointed to the remnant North Dravidian Brahui language, spoken in Baluchistan;however, its presence has now been explained by a late immigration that took place within this millennium (Elfenbein 1987)" - This is from the first page of the Witzel article that you've quoted!

"The Brahuis are more likely to be relatively recent immigrants to their present homeland in Pakistan from the western Deccan. In perhaps the 7th century loose congeries of nomadic groups began to split off from their nearest neighbors, the northwest Kuṛukh and Malto Dravidians, and to migrate northwestward."- This is from the Brahui Encyclopaedia that you've cited.

Did you even bother to read them before posting or not?

 

[Fireurimagination]

So, the bow is definitely not connected to a peepal tree, but most certainly connected to OM? Maybe you also have an intuition as to why the Aryans decided to remove the peepal tree altogether from that "OM" and decided to stick a big, curvy tail onto it??
The Baloch have stayed there for 2500 years now. So, you mean to say the Brahui were right next to the Baloch, conserved their language when everyone around them abandoned it, somehow did not pick any loanwords for at least a 1500 years and then suddenly replaced 80% their vocabulary with Balochi? Do you realize how stupid that sounds?It's like saying the Roma were always in Europe, somehow clung to their Indic language when everyone around them abandoned it, but decided to include Greek and Slavic loanwords only from 8th century AD onwards.
As I said before, when faith moves beyond spirituality into other domains, there's only so much one can say or do.

Researches believe current day Hinduism is a mixture of IVC or pre-IVC native culture (worshipping of Deities, Lord of animals (Shiva), Shakti, temple complexes etc) and Aryan culture (worshipping of elements Fire, Wind etc) both of which predates the Vedas, which is both most likely and what evidence points to.

2.1 The Indus Valley Civilization — Introduction to World Religions
Origins of Hinduism The Indus Valley Civilization

 

[Indischer]

Researches believe current day Hinduism is a mixture of IVC or pre-IVC native culture (worshipping of Deities, Lord of animals (Shiva), Shakti, temple complexes etc) and Aryan culture (worshipping of elements Fire, Wind etc) both of which predates the Vedas, which is both most likely and what evidence points to.

2.1 The Indus Valley Civilization — Introduction to World Religions
Origins of Hinduism The Indus Valley Civilization

Please go throught he previous posts on this thread dude.
Rudra, A Lord of Animals was already present in the RigVeda. Pushan, another RigVedic God, was also worshipped for feeding cattle and protecting men from wild animals. Apart from the seal of a man seated near animals, there is no evidence from IVC of them having worshipped this God, nor are there any religious texts recovered from IVC so far. Shiva, a God mentioned in the Krishna Yajurveda, ended up receiving the epithet of Rudra. The Vedic culture was strictly propagated by the priestly classes of the Aryans, and borrowed very little from, if anything at all, from the IVC.
Shakti is an addition to the Vedic culture that happened much later, after the composition of the four Vedas, and around the time of advent of Shaivism.
There have been no temples found in IVC, let alone temple complexes! Nor has any IVC deity been identified so far.

 

[Nassr]

Except Lothal, show me one link of another port city in IVC. Once again you are pulling something from your behind to justify something that isn't justifiable. Link for confirmation of Meluhha else that is also something you made up.

As for your denial of eastward movement (yes, you pulled south to north movement from your a@@), since you seem not to know anything about IVC, I am pasting a small para from wiki - "A research team led by the geologist Liviu Giosan of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution also concluded that climate change in form of the easterward migration of the monsoons led to the decline of the IVC.[84] The team's findings were published in PNAS in May 2012.[85][86] According to their theory, the slow eastward migration of the monsoons across Asia initially allowed the civilization to develop. The monsoon-supported farming led to large agricultural surpluses, which in turn supported the development of cities. The IVC residents did not develop irrigation capabilities, relying mainly on the seasonal monsoons. As the monsoons kept shifting eastward, the water supply for the agricultural activities dried up. The residents then migrated towards the Ganges basin in the east, where they established smaller villages and isolated farms. The small surplus produced in these small communities did not allow development of trade, and the cities died out."

Bharatavarsha is entire world? Link to support your assertion??

You are moving into a zugzwang.

Irrigation System in the IVC

As is happening these days, the people of IVC also followed varied methods for irrigation system. Rivers, canals, floods, monsoons, water reservoirs like dams etc, were all used for irrigation by the people of IVC. The archeology does support discovery of canals and other water preservation methods used in irrigation system followed by the people of IVC. Therefore, stating that a large scale migration took place due to decrease of monsoons does not hold enough water and seems a rather misplaced assumption.

An extensive canal network, used for irrigation, has however also been discovered in Lothal, which is an IVC site.

World History Timeline - Ancient India - Indus Valley Civilization

The people of Indus prospered on the foundations of an agriculture based system of irrigation and fertility, maintained by silt-bearing floods – and not necessarily and primarily only monsoons. Also, the excessive floods may have been a major cause of their movement and not only the easterly transfer of monsoons. This was a river based economy and not monsoon based like India’s economy is still dependent on.

ECONOMICS OF THE INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION

The Indus civilization apparently evolved from the villages of neighbours or predecessors, using the Mesopotamian model of irrigated agriculture with sufficient skill to reap the advantages of the spacious and fertile Indus River valley while controlling the formidable annual flood that simultaneously fertilizes and destroys.

Indus civilization -- Encyclopedia Britannica

A major governmental accomplishment achieved was their massive irrigation network.

Indus valley civilization unfinished

The evidence from Allahdino [Sindh, Pakistan] suggests the Harappans knew irrigation according to Fairservis who describes 'Harappans as master hydraulic engineers'. He suggests well water irrigation could be possible. The Great Bath and its covered drains and drains at Mohenjodaro are examples of conservation and water management. The evidence from Dholavira indicates the Harappans were excellent in water management and conservation. Frankfort (1985) located a canal in the Ghaggar-Harka plain as old as the Harappan times. The availability of water tanks at Dholvaria dams suggests reservoirs for potable water and bunds for small irrigation also. The dockyard at Lothal is another excellent example of creating a water body for berthing of small boats. The Harappan sites e.g, Kalibangan, Lothal, Mohenjodaro have pucca brick lined wells.

Harappan Architecture and Civil Engineering

Bharatvarsh

According to the scriptural description of the brahmand the entire earth planet is called Bharatvarsh.

Bhartiya History - Definition of Bharatvarsh

Location of Meluhha

Numerous Mesopotamian documents, spanning several centuries, refer to the lands of Meluhha, Makkan, and Dilmun. Modern scholars identify Meluhha with the Indus Valley, Makkan with the Makran and Omani coasts, and Dilmun with Bahrain, Failaka, and the adjacent Arabian coastline.

Center and Periphery: Indus Valley Civilization

Harbors and Seaports of IVC

Harappan seaports along the Makran coast, such as Sutkagendor, Sotka Koh, and Bala Kot.

Indus Valley Civilization: The Demise of Utopia

A notable feature in the geographical extension of the Mature Harappan culture is the string of trading outposts found along the coast of Makran. Three of these. at Balakot, Sokhta Koh and Sut-kagendor, have been studied in detail during the last two decades of archaeological researches in Pakistan. The significance of these trading outposts is that they provide undeniable evidence of the commercial and cultural contacts between Mesopotamia and the Indus basin at the height of their ancient civilizations in the Chal-colithic Age.

http://shahpurchakar.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/moen-jo-daro.pdf

Several coastal settlements like Sotkagen-dor (astride Dasht River, north of Jiwani), Sokhta Koh (astride Shadi River, north of Pasni), and Balakot (near Sonmiani) in Pakistan along with Lothal in India testify to their role as Harappan trading outposts

Indus Valley Civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Vinod2070]

It is quite amazing as well as sad.

Negative identity where people just know what they are not, not knowing what they are...

That is the root cause of many of the troubles of the country.

This thread again shows how deep the problem really is. It is again about negative identity of denial, of claiming that they are not something.

Now knowing what they are...

That is not even an issue it seems!