Should Pakistan join the Z-20 Helicopter project with China?

[New World]

@Horus what is the cost of the Program??
and if we join the Program then amount we have to pay them??

 

[cabatli_53]

Better to invest in JV with Turkey or EU for all types of Helicopters.

I think It is correct time to make cooperation with Turkey for military/civilian utility helicopters because Turkish industry is transfering all expertizes gained from T129 Atak program for firstly domestic 5 tonnes utility helicopter program which is going to be matured within following 3-4 years and later 8 tonnes helo. A JV to be established between two country in that phase of development will benefit too much. Turkey is planning to use same design for many different purposes. Pakistan can also apply similar methods to meet multiple requirements based on own produced helicopters.

 

[razgriz19]

Mi17 has a much greater troop carrying capacity than Z-20. I don't know if that's going to fly with PA brass, we probably will have to wait till the Mi17 replacement comes out. However, Puma, Hueys, Bell and possibly Navy SeaKings could be replaced by Z-20.

 

[Legionaire]

Invest in any one who will allow Tot and development of the helicopter (s). We shouldn't invest in China first, look at EU copter... Keep it diversified.

 

[Zarvan]

* Pakistan's tri services have more than 300 helicopters in service.

* Pakistan Army Aviation has over 250 Utility Helicopters in service most of which would require a replacement within the next 25 year time period. It includes various models of Mi-17, Bell, Puma, Alouette III, Lama, AS550s etc

* Chinese firm Herbin is developing a new helicopter based on the UH-60 Blackhawks they bought in the 80s. This helicopter is much different than a Blackhawk with its distinctive 5 rotor blade, a larger cabin, different landing gear, tail etc.

This machine can lift 4 tonnes of cargo and has good high altitude flight features. The question is, would it be good for Pakistan to join the Z-20 program at this development stage and bring its production to Pakistan, in order to replace all Utility Helicopters in service with various modified models for Utility, Armed Escort, S&R, Sea ops, light attack (like the battlehawk) as well as the civilian applications for rescue and emergency?

* Another argument is if Z-10 Thunderbolt tests lead to a licensed production for AH-1F/S Cobra replacement, it might share the same or similar engines with the Z-20s, which will cut costs of operating and maintaining them.

* I'm of the opinion that keeping next 25 years in mind, the diversity of roles this one frame will offer us, cheaper spares and maintaince as well as local production to replace our fleet of 250 -300 helicopters or even expand the numbers if the operational requirements dictate so, the Z-20 will be a very strategic investment for Pakistan to make.

What are your opinions?

Link - Z-20 Medium Transport Helicopter | Military-Today.com

I agree we need to produce this in Pakistan also another Transport helicopter and WZ-10 in Pakistan and I think we would join the project soon

 

[Viper0011.]

We've received 3 Z-10 Thunderbolt gunships for battlefield testing. If it goes well we hope to build them in Pakistan to replace our AH-1F/S Cobras.

Z-20 won't be ready before 2018, so we are just discussing what to do with our 200-300 Utility Helos in 25 years time as most of them would be reaching retirement & we can't afford to buy so many helos from the US or Russia. Producing Z-20 under license would be a great option for us.

1) Cobras are a 40 year old platform. These Z's are brand new airframes with decades worth of life left and brand new avionics with updated technology (till behind the US of course), but its brand new. Why go buy foreign heli's when you can buy or build for less than half the price? If we were comparing Apache's vs. the Z's, I'd suggest otherwise. But 30-40 year old Cobras vs. Z's for Pakistan? It makes perfect sense to build them internally as they would be a superior platform to the Cobra's Pakistan has. I'd suggest asking the US for Apache's but Pakistan can't buy them in numbers. So tot and local manufacturing Z's is the best thing for Pakistan.

2) Z-18, 20 or any other utility heli platform, SAME rule applies. Current utility arsenal in Pakistan's possession is not really the Black Hawks. Everything is a decade to three old tech. So why keep paying the Russians or the Czech's or anyone else??? Why not just build it yourself in numbers and sell to others beyond your needs.....if you save $ 5 million per chopper when you build your own or buy cheaper with some TOT from China, over 300 choppers (eventually), its 5000000*300 = $ 1500000000.....please count the number of 0's and savings. You can afford to build or buy 100 more choppers through so much savings!!

 

[Dan Wong]

it's ok

哈哈，努力融入中

 

[HRM YANG]

I agree we need to produce this in Pakistan also another Transport helicopter and WZ-10 in Pakistan and I think we would join the project soon

China may share a beltline, She always considers Pak a strategic fulcrum Nation. so if possible China will assist Pak evaluates on this aspect.

 

[C130]

Mi-171E with the VK-2500-03 engines to operate in extreme temperature limits, from -58 to 50 Celsius

 

[SSG_Commando]

I've said it times and times before, if any JV is available with the Chinese, Pakistan should jump on it. The analogy I'll give is building a house. If Pakistan can learn to build houses by itself (houses being helicopters, jets, SAMS, AEW, etc), the major part is done. Now everyone knows that this home may not have a nice layout such as the one provided by the West (in terms of avionics, radars, etc), but you can buy those from whoever else later or do home grown research.

The key is, you learned to build houses internally and for a fraction of the cost you currently pay to Western markets. Once there is a working structure that would meet basic needs, you can advance that structure and build nicer homes in the future internally, and without spending billions of dollars outside.

Indians, for the longest time, due to being a very poor country, drove Maruti's, etc. and had a total ban on importing cars, to sponsor made in India products. Now look where they are.......they now own Land Rover and Jaguars, etc, and have serious internal competition.

A JV on helicopters will do two things, it'll set up an aviation industry for both, the military and the civilian markets. Soon, in the next decade, when the economy and the GDP grows about 20-30% more (4-5% over 6-7 years), you'll start to see a LOT more new millionaires in the system, many new thriving businesses, a lot more public welfare projects, etc.

The Hospital footprint's, as one example, is expanding in Pakistan so at some point, Air Lift capability will be added, more Police Choppers, Customs, Rangers, Para Military, and all will be needed. The Rich would want to buy these too.

So all in all, if today, say your military has over 300 utility helicopters, imagine standardizing with one ingeniously built platform for utility choppers, which you can build, maintain and advance internally. Forever, leaving the utility helicopters' foreign market as a buyer and saving many billions per year. With having thousands of new hi tech jobs internally, and eventually, end up creating internal companies which can produce more models and compete with each other.

If you had a strong platform like this, you could arm it as a light-medium platform yourself, letting go of the older platforms, standardize weapons and maintenance capabilities (and save money there also), and being able to sell these to foreign markets for a fraction of what someone would pay to the West.

To many countries, price matters, and you capitalize that market! Its a win win situation. Same should happen on the Metro-Train, High Speed Rail (eventually), Stealth Jet (if the money allows for it), Subs, SAMS, AEW and Radars. The Chinese may be behind the US in terms of capability, but IMO, on may items, they are on par or above Russia (or soon, going above Russia). So anything Pakistan gets as a TOT, will help her locally and will allow it to sell internationally and make $$$$. The Chinese won't mind giving you tot on certain things, you use it to your own country's advantage.

Cant agree more. This is how nations become technological power house. Great advise indeed!!

 

[Sulman Badshah]

I think It is correct time to make cooperation with Turkey for military/civilian utility helicopters because Turkish industry is transfering all expertizes gained from T129 Atak program for firstly domestic 5 tonnes utility helicopter program which is going to be matured within following 3-4 years and later 8 tonnes helo. A JV to be established between two country in that phase of development will benefit too much. Turkey is planning to use same design for many different purposes. Pakistan can also apply similar methods to meet multiple requirements based on own produced helicopters.

looks nice

 

[New World]

@Zarvan hey bro you were banned few days ago. why?

 

[Zarvan]

@Zarvan hey bro you were banned few days ago. why?

I am still looking for answers

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Bilal. @HRK
agree in principle as it will have far reaching consequences beyond our lives but
maybe we are stretching ourselves too thin here. we got TOT and indigenous projects running in parallel in armor, aviation, missiles etc. if we have the funds and sufficient inflow of technical workforce then yes this project will be our helicopter version of JF-17 program replacing Puma and Huey. as for Mi-17? its robust design is going to last for a very long time and is of a different class anyway.
Pakistan was denied the Chinooks by the Americans for whatever reasons but thats what actually we need a helicpter of that capacity and size giving a tremendous boost to our helibourne assault which is what we really need in a conventional and asymmetric conflict.

 

[Zarvan]

Sir its time we start assembling helicopters in Pakistan and at first we should start with Chinese WZ-10 and Z-20