Should Pakistan join the Z-20 Helicopter project with China?

[Max Pain]

Why not？ Pakistan can receive technical by helicopters,that is the most valuable things in this project.
I think Chinese will help Pakistan to be a powerful and dignity country as we can.
I am sorry ，I'm not good at English，i hope you can understand what i'm talking about.
巴铁走起！

welcome to PDF,
hope you enjoy your time here.

 

[Dan Wong]

welcome to PDF,
hope you enjoy your time here.

thx!

 

[New World]

I've said it times and times before, if any JV is available with the Chinese, Pakistan should jump on it. The analogy I'll give is building a house. If Pakistan can learn to build houses by itself (houses being helicopters, jets, SAMS, AEW, etc), the major part is done. Now everyone knows that this home may not have a nice layout such as the one provided by the West (in terms of avionics, radars, etc), but you can buy those from whoever else later or do home grown research.

The key is, you learned to build houses internally and for a fraction of the cost you currently pay to Western markets. Once there is a working structure that would meet basic needs, you can advance that structure and build nicer homes in the future internally, and without spending billions of dollars outside.

Indians, for the longest time, due to being a very poor country, drove Maruti's, etc. and had a total ban on importing cars, to sponsor made in India products. Now look where they are.......they now own Land Rover and Jaguars, etc, and have serious internal competition.

A JV on helicopters will do two things, it'll set up an aviation industry for both, the military and the civilian markets. Soon, in the next decade, when the economy and the GDP grows about 20-30% more (4-5% over 6-7 years), you'll start to see a LOT more new millionaires in the system, many new thriving businesses, a lot more public welfare projects, etc.

The Hospital footprint's, as one example, is expanding in Pakistan so at some point, Air Lift capability will be added, more Police Choppers, Customs, Rangers, Para Military, and all will be needed. The Rich would want to buy these too.

So all in all, if today, say your military has over 300 utility helicopters, imagine standardizing with one ingeniously built platform for utility choppers, which you can build, maintain and advance internally. Forever, leaving the utility helicopters' foreign market as a buyer and saving many billions per year. With having thousands of new hi tech jobs internally, and eventually, end up creating internal companies which can produce more models and compete with each other.

If you had a strong platform like this, you could arm it as a light-medium platform yourself, letting go of the older platforms, standardize weapons and maintenance capabilities (and save money there also), and being able to sell these to foreign markets for a fraction of what someone would pay to the West.

To many countries, price matters, and you capitalize that market! Its a win win situation. Same should happen on the Metro-Train, High Speed Rail (eventually), Stealth Jet (if the money allows for it), Subs, SAMS, AEW and Radars. The Chinese may be behind the US in terms of capability, but IMO, on may items, they are on par or above Russia (or soon, going above Russia). So anything Pakistan gets as a TOT, will help her locally and will allow it to sell internationally and make $$$$. The Chinese won't mind giving you tot on certain things, you use it to your own country's advantage.

yes, you are right jf-17 is an example of it.. locally produced, can export and make $$$$$$$$$

 

[SQ8]

That's understood, however we are going to have to replace those mils etc. Don't you think given the diversity of UH-60 frame it would be desireable to build a helo at home rather than having to import them from the west and sign ourselves out for spares and upgrades for another 30 years?

Apart from high altitude applications, Z-20 fulfills every requirement PAA, PAF, PN and Civilian authorities might have for medium lift roles.

For heavy lift, we'd have to wait. China and Russia are jointly developing a new heavy lift heli.

The Mils can soldier on till 2030, by that time the Mi-38 may be useful. The Z-20 may be useful to replace the Pumas if it comes to that.

What do you think of Z9 as light-medium replacement?

What light-medium platform is nearing its replacement age that we need to look at?

 

[RAMPAGE]

What light-medium platform is nearing its replacement age that we need to look at?

UH1s?

 

[SQ8]

UH1s?

What is wrong with the solution I presented? Or more Bell 412s?
Save costs on maintenance and training.

 

[SafShikan]

if the features are appealing to our requirements and we have a sufficient budget to invest in then why not...it would be a great opportunity

 

[RAMPAGE]

What is wrong with the solution I presented? Or more Bell 412s?
Save costs on maintenance and training.

They will indeed. I was suggesting Z9 as a locally built replacement if we are to initiate a transport chopper program.

 

[SQ8]

They will indeed. I was suggesting Z9 as a locally built replacement if we are to initiate a transport chopper program.

Again, Kyun?
Why would we need to initiate a program to replace what does not need replacement?
We are not India to have that innate need to prove ourselves and carry out indigenization to keep local industry going and support it. We only need to build what we cannot get from elsewhere easily and which is important. I would rather look to cooperate more with the Poles and the Czechs to support the Mi-17 line locally and perhaps get some contracts going with Paramount group(formerly ATE aerospace) that lets us modify these types for better performance.
http://www.paramountgroup.biz/PDF/Advanced-Technology/mi-17.pdf

 

[Oldman1]

Is China going to give a handful to Pakistan?

 

[RAMPAGE]

Again, Kyun?
Why would we need to initiate a program to replace what does not need replacement?
We are not India to have that innate need to prove ourselves and carry out indigenization to keep local industry going and support it. We only need to build what we cannot get from elsewhere easily and which is important. I would rather look to cooperate more with the Poles and the Czechs to support the Mi-17 line locally and perhaps get some contracts going with Paramount group(formerly ATE aerospace) that lets us modify these types for better performance.

Oscar, India is not the only country going for indigenization. Why are we asking for local production of subs and attack choppers? We have been working on self reliance ever since the sanctions. Why stop now? Our defence industry can be a big supplier in the region if invested in.

Looks like we are going to produce Z10. Both can be paired, hence my suggestion.

 

[Donatello]

The Mils can soldier on till 2030, by that time the Mi-38 may be useful. The Z-20 may be useful to replace the Pumas if it comes to that.


What light-medium platform is nearing its replacement age that we need to look at?

Aren't the Huey(s) and 412s getting a beating?

 

[Kompromat]

Is China going to give a handful to Pakistan?

We've received 3 Z-10 Thunderbolt gunships for battlefield testing. If it goes well we hope to build them in Pakistan to replace our AH-1F/S Cobras.

Z-20 won't be ready before 2018, so we are just discussing what to do with our 200-300 Utility Helos in 25 years time as most of them would be reaching retirement & we can't afford to buy so many helos from the US or Russia. Producing Z-20 under license would be a great option for us.

 

[IceCold]

Every thing "made in China" we are going to repeat the same mistake we did with the Americans, putting all eggs in one basket. China is an ally but Americans were too In the end it all comes down to strategic interests make no mistake about it.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Every thing "made in China" we are going to repeat the same mistake we did with the Americans, putting all eggs in one basket. China is an ally but Americans were too In the end it all comes down to strategic interests make no mistake about it.

There is a difference this time.
When Pakistan was all USA it was just buying without ToT but this time when it is from China it is local production so 100% ToT.

The same is the case when we are dealing with Turkey