Should Pakistan join the Z-20 Helicopter project with China?

[Kompromat]

* Pakistan's tri services have more than 300 helicopters in service.

* Pakistan Army Aviation has over 250 Utility Helicopters in service most of which would require a replacement within the next 25 year time period. It includes various models of Mi-17, Bell, Puma, Alouette III, Lama, AS550s etc

* Chinese firm Herbin is developing a new helicopter based on the UH-60 Blackhawks they bought in the 80s. This helicopter is much different than a Blackhawk with its distinctive 5 rotor blade, a larger cabin, different landing gear, tail etc.

This machine can lift 4 tonnes of cargo and has good high altitude flight features. The question is, would it be good for Pakistan to join the Z-20 program at this development stage and bring its production to Pakistan, in order to replace all Utility Helicopters in service with various modified models for Utility, Armed Escort, S&R, Sea ops, light attack (like the battlehawk) as well as the civilian applications for rescue and emergency?

* Another argument is if Z-10 Thunderbolt tests lead to a licensed production for AH-1F/S Cobra replacement, it might share the same or similar engines with the Z-20s, which will cut costs of operating and maintaining them.

* I'm of the opinion that keeping next 25 years in mind, the diversity of roles this one frame will offer us, cheaper spares and maintaince as well as local production to replace our fleet of 250 -300 helicopters or even expand the numbers if the operational requirements dictate so, the Z-20 will be a very strategic investment for Pakistan to make.

What are your opinions?

Z-20 under development.

Link - Z-20 Medium Transport Helicopter | Military-Today.com

 

[M.SAAD]

Yes.

 

[Rocky rock]

Well it depends upon it's performance how it would perform in Pakistani climate and by Missions aspect.

In next 10 to 15 years Pakistan would have to replace most of her Puma's mi-17's n Bell's. If this project is Suitable and cost effective so we should go for it. Because in near future we need heavy lift helo's like mi-6 or UH-60.

 

[HRM YANG]

Well it depends upon it's performance how it would perform in Pakistani climate and by Missions aspect.

In next 10 to 15 years Pakistan would have to replace most of her Puma's mi-17's n Bell's. If this project is Suitable and cost effective so we should go for it. Because in near future we need heavy lift helo's like mi-6 or UH-60.

Can't agree more

 

[Kompromat]

@Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Bilal. @HRK

opinions pls

 

[SQ8]

Dont need to. As such the Mi-17 provides an excellent go-to platform for the service in the medium-heavy gap within our forces. What is needed is a heavy lifter and a light-medium platform. Currently the inventory is rather balanced with the light-medium classes pretty much taken care of except the Puma's which will eventually need replacement(if funds permit the newer Puma derivatives offer the logical choice) where the Z-20 may have potential.

The Allouettes within PA have their best replacement with more Fennec variants as they are excellent at high altitude operations such as in Siachen or in certain FATA areas. The Uh-1s can be replaced with more 412s or sanctions notwithstanding the 412 EPI. However, with funding status just the Huey II upgrade via the various vendors offering it will also suffice to extend operations well into the mid-late 2020s.

There is a dearth in training platforms which is the real primary concern and for that the top prospects lie in the Kazan Mi-34/44 platform which can be procured on licence to replace both the Schwizer 330 in the training role along with the Jet Ranger. Another option would be the Agusta Westland SW-4 but then it would be more expensive. A more logical alternative is actually the Sikorsky S-333 as it is similar to what the Army currently operates as its primary trainer but sanctions and US origin make it unlikely.

So at the end, where can the PA procure this gap in the Heavy lifting capacity is the real question. As the top three competitors are all out of reach( CH-47,CH-53 and Mi-26).

 

[volatile]

Yes from Experience point of view totally as we have experience of flying from all operators .But from Financial and technical point of view we leave it to Chinese .We should spend some money and I would like to see investment from private sector as they are more productive and efficient and commercialize it more quickly rather than state agencies.

 

[black-hawk_101]

Better to invest in JV with Turkey or EU for all types of Helicopters.

 

[Kompromat]

Dont need to. As such the Mi-17 provides an excellent go-to platform for the service in the medium-heavy gap within our forces. What is needed is a heavy lifter and a light-medium platform. Currently the inventory is rather balanced with the light-medium classes pretty much taken care of except the Puma's which will eventually need replacement(if funds permit the newer Puma derivatives offer the logical choice) where the Z-20 may have potential.

The Allouettes within PA have their best replacement with more Fennec variants as they are excellent at high altitude operations such as in Siachen or in certain FATA areas. The Uh-1s can be replaced with more 412s or sanctions notwithstanding the 412 EPI. However, with funding status just the Huey II upgrade via the various vendors offering it will also suffice to extend operations well into the mid-late 2020s.

There is a dearth in training platforms which is the real primary concern and for that the top prospects lie in the Kazan Mi-34/44 platform which can be procured on licence to replace both the Schwizer 330 in the training role along with the Jet Ranger. Another option would be the Agusta Westland SW-4 but then it would be more expensive. A more logical alternative is actually the Sikorsky S-333 as it is similar to what the Army currently operates as its primary trainer but sanctions and US origin make it unlikely.

So at the end, where can the PA procure this gap in the Heavy lifting capacity is the real question. As the top three competitors are all out of reach( CH-47,CH-53 and Mi-26).

That's understood, however we are going to have to replace those mils etc. Don't you think given the diversity of UH-60 frame it would be desireable to build a helo at home rather than having to import them from the west and sign ourselves out for spares and upgrades for another 30 years?

Apart from high altitude applications, Z-20 fulfills every requirement PAA, PAF, PN and Civilian authorities might have for medium lift roles.

For heavy lift, we'd have to wait. China and Russia are jointly developing a new heavy lift heli.

 

[kaonalpha]

The z20 is a medium sized helicopter the only possible advantage of this would be for dropping surgical strike teams in area and emergency evacuation services. This project does have a lot of potential in Pakistan for military as well as civil purpose. As far as a Heavy duty helicopter is concerned we should pursue a joint venture with china to create an mi 26 clone. The helicopter is battleas well as eenvironmentally tested and is a proven platform .A combination of Z10 and Z20 along with an mi 26 clone would definitely suit our needs both militarily as well as civil services.

 

[Rank]

Once a very senior officer told me that we have mostly test all Chinese equipments but it doesn't mean we will go for. He also said that we've tested Norico VT and got detailed briefing from Chinese high pros on Chinese under development military hardware. China only allowed Pakistani military officials to see Chinese military related development closely.

 

[kaonalpha]

Plus it be easier if someone can convince PM sharif he can get a kickback by investing in the aviation sector. We then just might be able to see joint venture with both china and Turkey.

 

[HRM YANG]

That's understood, however we are going to have to replace those mils etc. Don't you think given the diversity of UH-60 frame it would be desireable to build a helo at home rather than having to import them from the west and sign ourselves out for spares and upgrades for another 30 years?

Apart from high altitude applications, Z-20 fulfills every requirement PAA, PAF, PN and Civilian authorities might have for medium lift roles.

For heavy lift, we'd have to wait. China and Russia are jointly developing a new heavy lift heli.

Z8 and mi17 are patently not competent for the demanding of Plaaf & navy combat troops, if, compare with Mh-53. Therefore heavy lifts are indispensable, but i think why not vtol but normal helicopter? VTOL maybe is a more sensible gambit?

 

[Kompromat]

Guys i'm not even discussing heavy lift here!

 

[HRM YANG]

Investment in Z20 maybe low possible. Because z20 is not a noticeable export or joint project. And think for the moment it's is mature enough, PAF can directly imports it even the beltline