Shivalik Class Frigates Thread

[faithfulguy]

vONT DREAM MUCH BAOUT TARGETTING PM'S OFFICE IN NEW DELHI YOU DARE LAUNCH SOMETHING AND SEE HOW WE REVERT BACK TO YOU...BY THE WAY HOW OLD ARE YOU???

the problem with Brahmos is the range. For the airplane, it too heavy. Can a MKI carry more than one Brahmos? Also, besides MKI, which Indian airplane can carry Brahmos?

In any case, I do see Brahmos only as a good a short distance tactical missile. As it cannot travel too far. Its against the law for Russia to assist India in building a missile that goes beyond 300 miles.

---------- Post added at 01:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 AM ----------

If I was the Indian PM, I certainly wouldn't throw my hat in with the Americans.

That depends on who is the Indian PM and what is the world situation when the Indian PM is in charge.

 

[flaming arrow]

i don't think so, india has zero capability of taking offensive action against china while we have significant capability to take offensive action against india.

YOU HAVE THE CAPABILTY OF TAKING OFFENSIVE ACTION BUT THINKING THAT WE WOULD MAKE YOU SUSTAIN IT WITHOUT YOUR SUPPLY CHAIN AFECTED WOULD BE A DREAM IT WILL BE EQUIVALENT TO A DEATH TRAP

 

[Neither Right Nor Wrong]

the problem with Brahmos is the range. For the airplane, it too heavy. Can a MKI carry more than one Brahmos? Also, besides MKI, which Indian airplane can carry Brahmos?

In any case, I do see Brahmos only as a good a short distance tactical missile. As it cannot travel too far. Its against the law for Russia to assist India in building a missile that goes beyond 300 miles.

---------- Post added at 01:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 AM ----------



That depends on who is the Indian PM and what is the world situation when the Indian PM is in charge.

Weight of air launched Bhramos(2-2.5 tons) will less than surface launched(3tons) one..coz they will do away with one of the boosters (required to accelerate missile from zero to supersonic speed) as it can done by aircraft launching the missile at high speed and imparting it max kinetic energy.
A sukhoi will carry 3 bhramos ..one under the fuselage and two under the wings.
Other than Sukhoi ,Tupolev Tu-142 of Indian Navy with combat radius of 6500 NM can carry bhramos.

 

[below_freezing]

You said before criticism makes a country better.

Okay so here goes

You seem to like including BMs as well.

India's Shourya which is an accurate CM/BM fusion has a range of 750-1900km. It is also hypersonic, so the damage due to kinetic energy will be great even at a lower payload (for longer ranges). The speed and altitude of flight of this missile will make it close to impossible to intercept.

The HHQ-9 has a range of 200km, an air launched Brahmos will have a range of 290km and hence it can be released from outside the 200km SAM protection range. Once released, these missiles will be once again close to impossible to intercept.

You are arguing that all these missiles will be able to somehow BYPASS Indian SAMs. This is unlikely, if we fire a barrage, maybe 10% will get through. Then will come a barrage of the Indian equivalents.

Longer range for SAMS mean absolutely nothing, it is the accuracy that matters. And the accuracy of SAMs is something no netizen of either India or China will know.

I don't know how you concluded that Chinese naval AESA is better than the Indian naval AESA.

EDIT: e-warria mode off

there would be no need to bypass indian SAMs. as outlined elsewhere, the best way is to time the launch of these missiles such that they follow a SEAD attack by JH-7Es, J-8F and Su-30s on indian SAM sites.

long range for SAMS mean everything, and the accuracy is correlated with the radars that guide them. On both range and radar ability, China comes out ahead.

It is indeed difficult to intercept the air launched Brahmos against ships, and we will have no counter to them since the indian navy can catch us at the Straits of Malaca where we lack air support due to our lack of a carrier.

However, Indian Navy will not even be able to touch us in an offensive operation against China in the south sea due to it being within the reach of both PLAN and PLAAF air support. The stealth frigate will not change that fact.

In a real war, our primary operations would be carried out on the ground, where our advantage in both the technology and experience of land warfare can show.

 

[faithfulguy]

there would be no need to bypass indian SAMs. as outlined elsewhere, the best way is to time the launch of these missiles such that they follow a SEAD attack by JH-7Es, J-8F and Su-30s on indian SAM sites.

long range for SAMS mean everything, and the accuracy is correlated with the radars that guide them. On both range and radar ability, China comes out ahead.

It is indeed difficult to intercept the air launched Brahmos against ships, and we will have no counter to them since the indian navy can catch us at the Straits of Malaca where we lack air support due to our lack of a carrier.

However, Indian Navy will not even be able to touch us in an offensive operation against China in the south sea due to it being within the reach of both PLAN and PLAAF air support. The stealth frigate will not change that fact.

In a real war, our primary operations would be carried out on the ground, where our advantage in both the technology and experience of land warfare can show.

When it comes to ground war, India has more recent experience though. India had fought minor wars with both Pakistan and Bangladesh not that long ago. Also, India has visions of destroying the Chinese forces and Pakistani force in 96 hours. So India is quite prepared.

 

[sudhir007]

 

[faithfulguy]

Weight of air launched Bhramos(2-2.5 tons) will less than surface launched(3tons) one..coz they will do away with one of the boosters (required to accelerate missile from zero to supersonic speed) as it can done by aircraft launching the missile at high speed and imparting it max kinetic energy.
A sukhoi will carry 3 bhramos ..one under the fuselage and two under the wings.
Other than Sukhoi ,Tupolev Tu-142 of Indian Navy with combat radius of 6500 NM can carry bhramos.

Thanks for the info. So Bhramos is the most advance cruise missile in the world. I wonder what happened to the Russian missile that Brahmos copied from. Also, how come Russia is not using Bhramos? Is it the same situation as how Chins is not using JF17, not meeting the requirements. I wonder how come the best cruise in the world won't match the requirements of Russian military. Russian military must be so backward that it cannot absorb advance technology such as Bhramos.

 

[Chill Bihari]

Thanks for the info. So Bhramos is the most advance cruise missile in the world. I wonder what happened to the Russian missile that Brahmos copied from. Also, how come Russia is not using Bhramos? Is it the same situation as how Chins is not using JF17, not meeting the requirements. I wonder how come the best cruise in the world won't match the requirements of Russian military. Russian military must be so backward that it cannot absorb advance technology such as Bhramos.

U have been answere this question more than once .If acting ignorant is one of ur virtues,then good luck to u.
Also what strategeic aim would Russia get indicting a 300 km range missile.Its not surrounded by Pakistan.

 

[flaming arrow]

there would be no need to bypass indian SAMs. as outlined elsewhere, the best way is to time the launch of these missiles such that they follow a SEAD attack by JH-7Es, J-8F and Su-30s on indian SAM sites.

long range for SAMS mean everything, and the accuracy is correlated with the radars that guide them. On both range and radar ability, China comes out ahead.

It is indeed difficult to intercept the air launched Brahmos against ships, and we will have no counter to them since the indian navy can catch us at the Straits of Malaca where we lack air support due to our lack of a carrier.

However, Indian Navy will not even be able to touch us in an offensive operation against China in the south sea due to it being within the reach of both PLAN and PLAAF air support. The stealth frigate will not change that fact.

In a real war, our primary operations would be carried out on the ground, where our advantage in both the technology and experience of land warfare can show.

Again your drawing conclusions on just ur little knowlegde without even thinking that the enemy would be rsponding u ae just talking like a kid that we will do this and that we have this and that!!!
u say u wil taking out our air defence sysrems..how???just by telling us that our jets loaded with anti radiation missiles are coming urway..Our air defence is multi tier unlike the chinese which comprises of s-300 and its rip off copies...
i will just give a small insight of how SEAD operation can be countered..when ever ur jets are launched its detected buy our AWACS along with the ground based radar,now the weapon u will using to take out the radars will be ur chinese anti radiation missiles onboard ur fighters along with escorts now the basic of evading any SEAD OPERATION IS TO CUT THE RADIATION SUPPLY MEANING THE RADARS WILL BE ON STAND BY MODE.DENYING YOU TARGETS... THE JETS WILL HAVE TO STAY ON COURSE AND COME CLOSER TOO MUCH INSIDE THE INDIAN AIR DEFENCE UMBRELLA....REMEMBER AWACS ARE STILL KEEPING A TRACK ON YOU..IT IS then when the SAM's go active along with radars painting you and raining havoc on you sweetheart..you dont have sams better then us be it indian or isreali or russian we have the best of what the world has to OFFERr. dont forget MANPADS thats another angle...fighter jets on indian side would have already painted you by then

u simply haVe no clue about operations be it on land,air or high sea's u may have the number but quality wise you are no where near us..

 

[lhuang]

there would be no need to bypass indian SAMs. as outlined elsewhere, the best way is to time the launch of these missiles such that they follow a SEAD attack by JH-7Es, J-8F and Su-30s on indian SAM sites.

long range for SAMS mean everything, and the accuracy is correlated with the radars that guide them. On both range and radar ability, China comes out ahead.

It is indeed difficult to intercept the air launched Brahmos against ships, and we will have no counter to them since the indian navy can catch us at the Straits of Malaca where we lack air support due to our lack of a carrier.

However, Indian Navy will not even be able to touch us in an offensive operation against China in the south sea due to it being within the reach of both PLAN and PLAAF air support. The stealth frigate will not change that fact.

In a real war, our primary operations would be carried out on the ground, where our advantage in both the technology and experience of land warfare can show.

Anti-radiation missiles which I suppose is your answer for radar sites is only useful if the radar is turned on and is non-portable. Both the SPYDER and Akash SAM systems are portable.

Swordish Radars plus AWACS would detect these J-8s quickly before they entered Indian airspace, these radars would then be turned off and the Akash and SPYDER radars would be turned on, these radars would be ultimately be lost but not before many JH-7s and their escorts are shot down, however the radars associated with SAM systems are cheap and easily replaceable, it won't take long for them be functional again.

Also Indian MKIs would be in the air harassing the bombers. Eventually attrition will start taking its toll and we will overwhelm the IAF, which is when the ground offensive would start. However it is callous to assume that IA chiefs knowing that air superiority will be lost will stand around waiting for the PLA to roll in, their offensive will start as soon as hostilities begin.

Brahmos and Shouryas will be attacking our air bases and this will affect sortie rate, since you are saying the PLAAF is on the offensive, this will be far more detrimental to PLAAF overall efficiency than it will for our CMs hitting Indian bases.

The rest is something neither of us can speculate on. Discussions such as this are good, but I advise you to stop the anti-India rhetoric.

 

[below_freezing]

do you think IAF is the only one with AWACS? if we attacked right now, IAF's AWACS are not even fully integrated with the air force, this process will take a year. Our KJ-2000's however have been active for 6 years.

If only the AWAC is active, air to air radiation missiles can take out the indian AWACs.

Vympel R-27 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

China license manufactures the R-27 which has a passive radar seeker, while india is limited to purchase from Russia.

In addition, we have created the HQ-9 Anti Radiation Missile, an anti-radiation SAM, able to take out IAF's AWACs if they were the only active radars airborne.

HQ-9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The land-based HQ-9 system has an anti-radiation variant, known as the FT-2000 for export. The export designation for air defense version is FD-2000 (with FD stands for Fang Dun [防盾], meaning defensive shield), and its developer China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corporation (CPMIEC) first made it public at the Africa Aerospace and Defence Exhibition held at Cape Town in March 2009."

Even if only partial SEAD had occured, a mass cruise missile launch would likely be successful and destroy most of india's strategic targets.

 

[DMLA]

Usually two radars working in a same frequency will not be chosen because of interference with each another. So it is either RAWL-02/LW08 or Thales Smart-L.

Which 2 are you talking about? As far as I know, top plate works in E band while both STAR and 3DCAR are S-band radars!
It is certainly not RAWL-02 and it is not smart-L in all likelihood as can be clearly seen from the released images though!

Added later: RAWL-02 is the volume search radar on the delhi's. They are distictly different in design. IN has moved away from them for its future ships (as would seem to be the case).

RAWL-02:

SMART-L (notice the clean backside):

now check the radar on shivalik:

 

[Kinetic]

I am having second thoughts about the volume search radar. Looking at the size of the secondary radar on the ship, I am inclined to believe that it may not be revathi. I feel it would either be a variant of revathi or the ieraeli STAR (EL/M-2238) radar (more likely).

link: http://www.misile-iai.com/sip_storage/files/3/36843.pdf

I was thinking same!! It may be 2238. But many Indian ships now have Revathi.

Sudhir, good effort but that EW is not Ajanta its Ellora mk.2. Its quite different from earlier Ajanta onboard navy ships.

 

[DMLA]

That is a SATCOM mount and not shikari!

This is the "shikari" on INS brahmaputra!

 

[lhuang]

do you think IAF is the only one with AWACS? if we attacked right now, IAF's AWACS are not even fully integrated with the air force, this process will take a year. Our KJ-2000's however have been active for 6 years.

If only the AWAC is active, air to air radiation missiles can take out the indian AWACs.

Vympel R-27 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

China license manufactures the R-27 which has a passive radar seeker, while india is limited to purchase from Russia.

In addition, we have created the HQ-9 Anti Radiation Missile, an anti-radiation SAM, able to take out IAF's AWACs if they were the only active radars airborne.

HQ-9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The land-based HQ-9 system has an anti-radiation variant, known as the FT-2000 for export. The export designation for air defense version is FD-2000 (with FD stands for Fang Dun [防盾], meaning defensive shield), and its developer China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corporation (CPMIEC) first made it public at the Africa Aerospace and Defence Exhibition held at Cape Town in March 2009."

Even if only partial SEAD had occured, a mass cruise missile launch would likely be successful and destroy most of india's strategic targets.

The Phalcon AWACS have an operational range of 450km, the first IAF Phalcon was inducted in Jan 2009, they have been used for over a year, its sufficient to say the IAF has good operational knowledge of the craft.

So what if India doesn't produce the R-27, they undoubtedly have them in numbers, they also have the Novator K-100 with range upto 400km, this is carried on the IAF MKIs, a couple of these can be launched to engage the KJ-2000.

For the IAF Phalcons to be shot down by anti radiation missiles, they would have to be within 200kms of the HQ-9 launcher, an AWACS is a strategic asset and will not be inside Chinese airspace. An AWACs will have fighter escorts as well, there aren't any a2a missiles in PLAAF inventory to outrange the K-100.

When India detects CM launches towards its strategic missile locations, they might easily decided to launch their nukes, after which, major cities in both countries will be radioactive hell holes.

Anyway, if war occurs between China and India, the US which is just waiting for an excuse for a scrap will have the USN sailing into the South China Sea, at this point the war will be lost.

The only way that China can go forward is if India is in its fold, we need to strengthen the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation by bringing India into it.