Shed insecurities: India to Pakistan

[was]

the biggest proof is that the war on terror is going on in Pakistan and not in India. India has given proof to the UN which banned YOUR organization not OURS. Closing your eyes to the problem does not make it go away. If you cannot accept that Pakistan has used terror as its state policy then you are living in a dream world. From the creation of the taliban itself to supporting terrorist organization in the name of supporting its illogical claims on Kashmir, Pakistan's current state is a mirror on its own continued support to terrorist organisations.

you mean it is going on in pakistan trouhg afganistan supported by india.

and BTW can somebody tell me why this guy is a elite member ?

 

[username]

When you can provide evidence showing Pakistan supports terrorist organizations and terrorism, then we can talk about 'stop supporting them'.

You see we consider your so called freedom fighters as terrorists. It is very clear that lot of forum members including you (I am not sure) accepting that your so called freedom fighters cross the border, what more proof do you want ? and from the infamous quote "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" we can deduce "one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist"

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

the biggest proof is that the war on terror is going on in Pakistan and not in India.

Actually it is going on in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Indonesia etc., and India has what, over a hundred groups it has designated as 'terrorist organizations'?

The fact that there is a 'war against terrorism' in Pakistan, that the Pakistani military is engaged in, indicates that Pakistan is fighting terrorism, not that it is supporting it. You have your logic screwed up here.

India has given proof to the UN which banned YOUR organization not OURS

.
The UN has imposed sanctions on an organization, not on Pakistan, and Pakistan has fulfilled its responsibilities with respect to what those sanctions require. Again, nothing that implicates the Pakistani State or its institutions in terrorism.

Closing your eyes to the problem does not make it go away. If you cannot accept that Pakistan has used terror as its state policy then you are living in a dream world.

I am not closing my eyes, you are insisting on propagating a POV that has no evidence substantiating it, and despite repeated requests to Indians and Americans to provide credible evidence of even one instance of Pakistan supporting terrorism, you have failed to do so.

Now if you want to call support for insurgents 'terrorism', then India and Indians need to accept that India is also a State sponsor of terrorism by virtue of its support for East Pakistani insurgents and the LTTE.

From the creation of the taliban itself to supporting terrorist organization in the name of supporting its illogical claims on Kashmir, Pakistan's current state is a mirror on its own continued support to terrorist organisations.

The Taliban were not a terrorist organization when they were supported, nor were the Kashmiri groups. Most of the Kashmiri groups have never condoned attacks on civilians. And our claims on Kashmir are not illogical - the requirement for plebiscite was a condition of accession, as well as a central part of the UNSC resolutions, both of which were agreed to and committed to by India.

The only 'illogical position' here is that of India's, that insists that its occupation of a people and territory is justified because '1 billion people want it'.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You see we consider your so called freedom fighters as terrorists. It is very clear that lot of forum members including you (I am not sure) accepting that your so called freedom fighters cross the border, what more proof do you want ? and from the infamous quote "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" we can deduce "one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist"

What you consider or don't consider is irrelevant. Terrorism can only be defined as deliberate attacks on civilians, and by that yardstick the Indian Army and other Indian security forces are the 'biggest terrorists in Kashmir', since Amnesty International and various other human rights groups have documented tens of thousands of rapes, torture cases and murders of civilians by Indian security forces in J&K.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, I am repeating this again, we don't care whether it is Pakistan which supports terrorism or they are non state actors... (example, Kasab & other MORONS)

All we are saying is that we do not want Pakistanis getting involved in terrorism in India, and that Pakistan's territory should not be used for spreading terrorism in India.

When you can prevent all local terrorism in India and prevent all crime and make a perfect society, then you can ask another country to prevent all crime from taking place on its soil, whether it is crime targeted locally or abroad.

Its an absurd requirement. Any country can only do so much. When Pakistan is struggling to prevent terrorism against itself, how can it guarantee that no one from Pakistani soil will act against another nation?

And I am not supporting all the claims made by every Indian official. All I am asking is when people claim/support some views they should submit proof, is that too much to ask from them ?

And when somebody is alleging someone they SHOULD provide proof along with it, else it has no credibility.

I don't care whether you support the claims made by the Indian government or not, but so long as the GoI and Indians make those claims, questions such as yours will be met with the same response.

 

[username]

What you consider or don't consider is irrelevant. Terrorism can only be defined as deliberate attacks on civilians, and by that yardstick the Indian Army and other Indian security forces are the 'biggest terrorists in Kashmir', since Amnesty International and various other human rights groups have documented tens of thousands of rapes, torture cases and murders of civilians by Indian security forces in J&K.

I disagree with you and will not debate on this with you as it will derail the topic I want to discuss...


again PROOF of India supporting terrorism in Pakistan ....

 

[was]

I disagree with you and will not debate on this with you as it will derail the topic I want to discuss...


again PROOF of India supporting terrorism in Pakistan ....

again PROOF of pakistan supporting terrorism in india

 

[username]

When you can prevent all local terrorism in India and prevent all crime and make a perfect society, then you can ask another country to prevent all crime from taking place on its soil, whether it is crime targeted locally or abroad.

Its an absurd requirement. Any country can only do so much. When Pakistan is struggling to prevent terrorism against itself, how can it guarantee that no one from Pakistani soil will act against another nation?

I don't care whether you support the claims made by the Indian government or not, but so long as the GoI and Indians make those claims, questions such as yours will be met with the same response.

Whether India is a perfect society or not is a domestic problem (I am sure you will agree with me on this). Your government is not capable of containing the problem (be it civilian government or military government). It is no more your domestic problem, your state as it is not able to control attrocities commited by your country's terrorists has become a global menace. I don't know whether your government can give such IRRESPONSIBLE answers to the world, but it is completely ABSURD.

If you are not able to contain the problem locally then you should give way to other countries coming into your country and solve it.

 

[username]

again PROOF of pakistan supporting terrorism in india

You are free to ask this to people who give this statement and they will be happy to give you the proofs, and it will be a very long argument. Please listen carefully I am not making such statements, all I am asking is proof for the statements your fellow country men is making and look at my above posts in this thread also. All I am concerned is your country's territory should not be used for terrorism against India, if your government can't have a control over that then forfeit, let other countries come into your country and control the menace in your country.

 

[desiman]

Give us evidence on people you are talking about. If they are pakistanis action will be taken. First of all please provide us these details of people you think are pakistan

Computerized NIC from NADRA
Forum "B"
Matric certificate from school approved by Education commision of Pakistan.
Fathers computerized NIC from NADRA
Mothers computerized NIC from NADRA
Birthday certificate.



Please provide these initial details and then we'll investigate on our side.

if you cant provide this then we request you to STFU.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Learn how to talk and then ill reply to you

 

[Aslan]

You are free to ask this to people who give this statement and they will be happy to give you the proofs, and it will be a very long argument. Please listen carefully I am not making such statements, all I am asking is proof for the statements your fellow country men is making and look at my above posts in this thread also. All I am concerned is your country's territory should not be used for terrorism against India, if your government can't have a control over that then forfeit, let other countries come into your country and control the menace in your country.

Dude you are contradicting your own self, on one hand you say that we need to back our statements with proof, and on the other you want us to go ask our politicians for proof on indias involvement. So why dont the same logic apply to you to go get the proof from your politicians who accuse Pakistan for every thing.

 

[username]

What you consider or don't consider is irrelevant. Terrorism can only be defined as deliberate attacks on civilians, and by that yardstick the Indian Army and other Indian security forces are the 'biggest terrorists in Kashmir', since Amnesty International and various other human rights groups have documented tens of thousands of rapes, torture cases and murders of civilians by Indian security forces in J&K.

There is a huge difference, they are uniformed men, no country can call them any such thing (recent example being Canada saying something and then appologising for it)... So let us not put uniformed men in that.

Let me explain what is the difference between uniformed men and your terrorists whom you prefer to call as freedom fighters.

And one more thing is that I will not go into proofs like Kashmir insurgents do attrocities etc, as that will take the debate in other course...

Our Uniformed men :-
1. Force of a democratically elected goverment operating under the order of elected government. This translates to whatever action done by our forces implicates that it is the people's wish.
Force is owned by government, whatever actions done by them resembles the wish of people as government can NOT disown them.

Your Insurgent :- Faceless
Your own government is disowning them, saying that they are not state actors, what more can I say ? Is there a bigger shame in you working for your government and your government disowning you in front of the whole world ?

 

[username]

Dude you are contradicting your own self, on one hand you say that we need to back our statements with proof, and on the other you want us to go ask our politicians for proof on indias involvement. So why dont the same logic apply to you to go get the proof from your politicians who accuse Pakistan for every thing.

No listen again, I only ask for proof which is made by some of your country men in this very same thread. I did ask them with replies to them, my questions are specific.

When I say/support my politician's quotes you are free to ask me. And for me I will certainly question our politicians if I disagree with them, and no advice is needed.

 

[desiman]

Actually it is going on in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Indonesia etc., and India has what, over a hundred groups it has designated as 'terrorist organizations'?

The fact that there is a 'war against terrorism' in Pakistan, that the Pakistani military is engaged in, indicates that Pakistan is fighting terrorism, not that it is supporting it. You have your logic screwed up here.

.
The UN has imposed sanctions on an organization, not on Pakistan, and Pakistan has fulfilled its responsibilities with respect to what those sanctions require. Again, nothing that implicates the Pakistani State or its institutions in terrorism.

I am not closing my eyes, you are insisting on propagating a POV that has no evidence substantiating it, and despite repeated requests to Indians and Americans to provide credible evidence of even one instance of Pakistan supporting terrorism, you have failed to do so.

Now if you want to call support for insurgents 'terrorism', then India and Indians need to accept that India is also a State sponsor of terrorism by virtue of its support for East Pakistani insurgents and the LTTE.

The Taliban were not a terrorist organization when they were supported, nor were the Kashmiri groups. Most of the Kashmiri groups have never condoned attacks on civilians. And our claims on Kashmir are not illogical - the requirement for plebiscite was a condition of accession, as well as a central part of the UNSC resolutions, both of which were agreed to and committed to by India.

The only 'illogical position' here is that of India's, that insists that its occupation of a people and territory is justified because '1 billion people want it'.

sorry agnostic we have already argued about thse points before, you wont accept that Pakistan has and continues to sponsor terrorism and i wont accept your point, so better not waste both of our times indulging in trying to convince each other.

 

[Aslan]

No listen again, I only ask for proof which is made by some of your country men in this very same thread. I did ask them with replies to them, my questions are specific.

When I say/support my politician's quotes you are free to ask me. And for me I will certainly question our politicians if I disagree with them, and no advice is needed.

You need proof of accusations made by Pakistanis on indian establishment. Fair enough.

Yet you are just a comment away from accusing us of Rwandan genocide, metaphorically speaking. Where is your proof!