Shed insecurities: India to Pakistan

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

yeah right... thats ur problem as long as they are doing "mountain trekking" in ur territory... but as soon as they violate Indian territory..thats no more only "your" problem..

Read the post - I was referring to the point about being 'disowned'. Whether or not you want to make their presence in J&K fighting Indian occupation 'India's problem' is no concern of mine.

---------- Post added at 12:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 PM ----------

Have YOU been successful at providing the necessary credible evidence ?

What have I claimed in this thread that you need evidence for?

 

[desiman]

Does not in any way substantiate your points by way of providing evidence of a single act of terrorism that the Pakistani State has supported.

So please, instead of posting opinions on social issues and public opinion, get back to looking for credible evidence, a task that you and others have failed miserably at.

the day you provide me with one piece of evidence of Indian involvement in Pakistan, i will whole heartedly change my opinions but as your claims are nothing but part of the Zaid Hamid club of conspiracy theories i fail to accept any of your points. The article i posted talks about this very attitude where you blame all of Pakistan's problems on the hidden " Foreign Hand " and fail to accept that Pakistan today is being bitten by the very tiger it bread to bite India. As the author of the article said, Pakistanis conveniently blame all their problems on India, Israel and group and anyone who speaks against them is applauded like a hero. Its time Pakistan introspects as its blame game is only leading it towards totally failing as a state.

 

[username]

Read the post - I was referring to the point about being 'disowned'. Whether or not you want to make their presence in J&K fighting Indian occupation 'India's problem' is no concern of mine.

---------- Post added at 12:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 PM ----------


What have I claimed in this thread that you need evidence for?

Then drop it, we are discussing over nothing.
You replied for my post asking for proof, so don't you think the onus is on you to prove ? Else you need not have replied at all...

So far the discussion between us went like this ...

Me :- Asking for proof for some of your country men's claim
You :- came and said why do I need proof from Pakistani government
Me :- If you accuse you need proof --> (Note :- at this point you could have said that YOU are not accusing anything, and you could have closed the discussion but you did not)
You :- said, Pakistani govt is not involed --> meaning the infamous NON STATE ACTORS
Me :- If you are not able to control in your country let other countries into your country
You :- gave an advice saying that when India is able to control all its territories and no terrirism and crime in India, we can ask for such things
Me :- The terrorism in our country is remaining as a domestic problem, so ours as well as lot of other countries can make sure that it becomes your domestic problems only...

If you wish you can continue on this... or if there is anything else I did not summarise in the discussion b/w you and me you can let me know...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

the day you provide me with one piece of evidence of Indian involvement in Pakistan, i will whole heartedly change my opinions but as your claims are nothing but part of the Zaid Hamid club of conspiracy theories i fail to accept any of your points.

That is changing the subject isn't it? You have been defending the GoI and other claims about the Pakistani State supporting terrorists, and my argument to you, to provide evidence of this alleged support, is in that context.

So if you agree that there is absolutely no credible evidence implicating the Pakistani State and its institutions in terrorism or support for terrorists, then I'll agree that there is similarly no credible evidence implicating India in supporting terrorists in Balochistan and FATA.

The article i posted talks about this very attitude where you blame all of Pakistan's problems on the hidden " Foreign Hand " and fail to accept that Pakistan today is being bitten by the very tiger it bread to bite India. As the author of the article said, Pakistanis conveniently blame all their problems on India, Israel and group and anyone who speaks against them is applauded like a hero. Its time Pakistan introspects as its blame game is only leading it towards totally failing as a state.

Where did this 'foreign hand' come from? Are you even responding on the correct thread? I thought the thread was about Rao's ranting about Pakistan's insecurities while ignoring India's own rather 'insecure' actions that I mentioned earlier. In addition it was about Rao's rants about 'Pakistan supporting terrorism', to which I pointed out that no one has been able to provide any credible evidence substantiating those allegations, and in response to which you started arguing with me.

So, given the lack of evidence provided by India and Indians (and Americans), who exactly is in denial and scapegoating an external entity?

 

[nForce]

Why not? If Indian security forces deliberately kill, torture and rape civilians, then they are committing acts of terrorism and are terrorists. I fail to see how wearing a uniform changes the nature of the act - it is still the murder of an innocent, the rape of an innocent, the torture of an innocent, ostensibly in pursuit of a political objective of perpetuating Indian occupation of J&K.

I think for a fact that Indian Army is present in Kashmir to protect the Indian land from foreign invaders...There has been some incidents of violence of rules by members of the Indian Army.Proper and strict actions has been taken against those specific cases.Any separated,dissected incident cannot be portrayed as a general happening,something that,in my opinion,u r trying to do...

Hitler's Nazi terrorists were at one point 'elected' as well. Just because a government is 'elected' does not mean its policies, or the actions of those charged with implementing those policies, are automatically correct and legitimate. The tens of thousands of murders, rapes and torture of innocent Kashmiris by Indian SF's obviously indicates that not to be the case.

I would very much like to see some proof supporting ur statement that Indian security forces murdered,raped and tortured tens of thousands of innocent Kashmiris.I would also like to know what is the word for killing of Kashmiris by militants in ur dictionary...

So what if they are 'disowned'? That is our problem. The issue here remains the acts themselves, not what the people committing them are called and whether they wear a uniform or not.

Going by ur logic, the presence of Indian Security Forces in Kashmir is none of ur business...

Terrorism is the act of deliberately committing violence against civilians (you may insert 'in pursuit of a political objective' here if you wish). I fail to see how a uniform changes the nature of the act.

Terrorism,no matter where it is should be denounced.Terrorism spills the blood of innocent people.The activities of militants in Kashmir is nothing but terrorism.Supporting those militants in Kashmir while denouncing Taliban groups like TTP is nothing but a blatant act of hypocrisy.(You may insert the word 'selective' before terrorism to suit ur own needs).I fail to see how a change in nation changes the definition of the act(terrorism),nature remaining the same...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Then drop it, we are discussing over nothing.
You replied for my post asking for proof, so don't you think the onus is on you to prove ? Else you need not have replied at all...

So far the discussion between us went like this ...

Me :- Asking for proof for some of your country men's claim
You :- came and said why do I need proof from Pakistani government
Me :- If you accuse you need proof --> (Note :- at this point you could have said that YOU are not accusing anything, and you could have closed the discussion but you did not)
You :- said, Pakistani govt is not involed --> meaning the infamous NON STATE ACTORS
Me :- If you are not able to control in your country let other countries into your country
You :- gave an advice saying that when India is able to control all its territories and no terrirism and crime in India, we can ask for such things
Me :- The terrorism in our country is remaining as a domestic problem, so ours as well as lot of other countries can make sure that it becomes your domestic problems only...

If you wish you can continue on this... or if there is anything else I did not summarise in the discussion b/w you and me you can let me know...

The allgegations of 'Pakistan supporting terrorism' were started by Indians because of kashmir and especially after the Mumbai attacks. Therefore the onus is on you to categorically reject those allegations by the GoI, state that you agree that there is no evidence supporting those allegations, and then ask Pakistanis for evidence.

If you do the above, I have no problem accepting, as I pointed out to Desiman, that like India Pakistan has no credible evidence implicating India in support for terrorists in Baluchistan and FATA.

But if you are not going to categorically refute the GoI's position, then there is nothing to discuss.

That said, so long as the GoI keeps making these unsubstantiated allegations, Pakistanis will also keep making their own allegations. As an Indian who does care about 'evidence' you can do your part in preventing the discussion from going in that direction by immediately coming out and rejecting the GoI's statements and position, and asking Pakistanis to similarly not make accusations against India without evidence.

Just asking Pakistanis for evidence without rejecting the GoI's statements does not cut it.

 

[Ganga]

the biggest proof is that the war on terror is going on in Pakistan and not in India. India has given proof to the UN which banned YOUR organization not OURS. Closing your eyes to the problem does not make it go away. If you cannot accept that Pakistan has used terror as its state policy then you are living in a dream world. From the creation of the taliban itself to supporting terrorist organization in the name of supporting its illogical claims on Kashmir, Pakistan's current state is a mirror on its own continued support to terrorist organisations.

very well said

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I think for a fact that Indian Army is present in Kashmir to protect the Indian land from foreign invaders...There has been some incidents of violence of rules by members of the Indian Army.Proper and strict actions has been taken against those specific cases.Any separated,dissected incident cannot be portrayed as a general happening,something that,in my opinion,u r trying to do...

The Indian Army is the invader in the valley - that is clear from the fact that India has refused to honor the condition of plebiscite in Kashmir, that was a condition of accession as well as part and parcel of the UNSC resolutions. It is the insurgents who are fighting to rid Kashmir of invaders.

I would very much like to see some proof supporting ur statement that Indian security forces murdered,raped and tortured tens of thousands of innocent Kashmiris.I would also like to know what is the word for killing of Kashmiris by militants in ur dictionary...

Check Amnesty International and other HR organizations reports on the issue.

Going by ur logic, the presence of Indian Security Forces in Kashmir is none of ur business...

That is not my logic, since I said that 'whether India wishes to make the presence of insurgents in J&K an issue' is none of my concern. My point was specifically related to the issue of 'disowning' pleas read the posts more carefully next time, you and the other guy.

Terrorism,no matter where it is should be denounced.Terrorism spills the blood of innocent people.The activities of militants in Kashmir is nothing but terrorism.

Indeed terrorism should be denounced, and therefore you should denounce the massacres, rapes and torture of Kashmiris by the Indian Army and security forces, along with denouncing the attacks on civilians by militants.

Supporting those militants in Kashmir while denouncing Taliban groups like TTP is nothing but a blatant act of hypocrisy.(You may insert the word 'selective' before terrorism to suit ur own needs).I fail to see how a change in nation changes the definition of the act(terrorism),nature remaining the same...

We support those militants that fight Indian occupation forces, not attack civilians, just as you I imagine do not support Indian Army troops and other security forces that massacre, rape and torture civilians.

Since at no point did I say that those militants who attack civilians should not be considered terrorists, your point is a blatant lie, and I would appreciate it if, again, you read the posts more carefully and not attribute things to people that they have not said.

---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:26 PM ----------

very well said

Unfortunately for you and Desiman, already refuted.

 

[SMC]

What is this? Indians accuse of making conspiracy theories without proof relating to the accusations of India doing terrorism in Pakistan, yet make conspiracies theories without proof of Pakistan doing terrorism in India. Quite a case of a double standard and head in the sand, isn't it?

 

[username]

The allgegations of 'Pakistan supporting terrorism' were started by Indians because of kashmir and especially after the Mumbai attacks. Therefore the onus is on you to categorically reject those allegations by the GoI, state that you agree that there is no evidence supporting those allegations, and then ask Pakistanis for evidence.

If you do the above, I have no problem accepting, as I pointed out to Desiman, that like India Pakistan has no credible evidence implicating India in support for terrorists in Baluchistan and FATA.

But if you are not going to categorically refute the GoI's position, then there is nothing to discuss.

That said, so long as the GoI keeps making these unsubstantiated allegations, Pakistanis will also keep making their own allegations. As an Indian who does care about 'evidence' you can do your part in preventing the discussion from going in that direction by immediately coming out and rejecting the GoI's statements and position, and asking Pakistanis to similarly not make accusations against India without evidence.

Just asking Pakistanis for evidence without rejecting the GoI's statements does not cut it.

The point I am making is that Pakistani territory is being used for such a large group of terrorists. I am sure you will agree with me that Kasab an co MORONS were from Pakistan, this is one of the categorical evidence that Pakistan's territory is being used for terrorism against other countries, and may be if you wish we can discuss the solutions for that.

The points regarding me going out and asking for proof from GoI is not required and I believe in what GoI is saying. And the thing is I am mature enough not to raise this point in this forum as I am sure I will NOT be able to make anybody from Pakistan in this forum agree with me. When other members are raising such points you can always ask them, and the people who raised such points and people who believe that they can convince a Pakistani in what they know/believe will surely reply. I can choose which one to ask clarification and which one I don't care to ask clarification and I don't need directions in this.

When I (as a person who did not claim anything which you need proof) ask something yours or your fellow countrymen who in lot of threads accuse India can give answers in binary.

NO THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL.
OR
SHOW THE EVIDENCE.

And as for Pakistan supporting terrorism in India, I am sure that your PM is not going to go to terrorist camps everyday giving them orders. I am talking about things logically also, YOUR TERRITORY is being used for terrorism agains other countries, TAKE OWNERSHIP, SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

When GoI makes allegations it is easy for other people to believe because, your government ACKNOWLEDGES that there are your so called "NON STATE TERRORIST" bastards are there in your own country.

But GoP is not able to make such claims with any basis. The thing is I am not able to see even a minimum credible basis on the accusations of Pakistan. And mostly the basis mentioned in this forum is weaklings like Hindu country/Akand Bharat/our domestic problems/RAW-CIA-MOSSAD etc... not even as credible as GoI accepting NON STATE ACTORS. This is worrisome and insane as well.

 

[Ganga]

The Indian Army is the invader in the valley - that is clear from the fact that India has refused to honor the condition of plebiscite in Kashmir, that was a condition of accession as well as part and parcel of the UNSC resolutions. It is the insurgents who are fighting to rid Kashmir of invaders.

The indian army had acted when it was asked for assistance by the Maharajah.Pakistan was the invader of the independent Kingdom of J&K at that time.Has Pakistan honoured the plebiscite regarding junagadh??Pakistan still consideres Junagadh Pakistani territory.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The indian army had acted when it was asked for assistance by the Maharajah.Pakistan was the invader of the independent Kingdom of J&K at that time.Has Pakistan honoured the plebiscite regarding junagadh??Pakistan still consideres Junagadh Pakistani territory.

The plebiscite was carried out after India invaded the territory and occupied the State, despite the ruler of Junagadh acceding to Pakistan. Why should Pakistan accept such a plebiscite?
You cannot have it both ways - claim legitimacy by invading one Princely State despite its accession to Pakistan, and claiming foul play when Pakistan did the same in J&K.

You are either an outsider in Junagadh, or an outsider in Kashmir - you cannot have it both ways.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The point I am making is that Pakistani territory is being used for such a large group of terrorists. I am sure you will agree with me that Kasab an co MORONS were from Pakistan, this is one of the categorical evidence that Pakistan's territory is being used for terrorism against other countries, and may be if you wish we can discuss the solutions for that.

Territory being used is different from accusing the State and its institutions of supporting terrorism, which is what Rao argued in her statements here, and other Indian officials have argued in the past. My quibble is with the latter point, of accusing the Pakistani State and institutions without evidence.

The points regarding me going out and asking for proof from GoI is not required and I believe in what GoI is saying. And the thing is I am mature enough not to raise this point in this forum as I am sure I will NOT be able to make anybody from Pakistan in this forum agree with me. When other members are raising such points you can always ask them, and the people who raised such points and people who believe that they can convince a Pakistani in what they know/believe will surely reply. I can choose which one to ask clarification and which one I don't care to ask clarification and I don't need directions in this.

When I (as a person who did not claim anything which you need proof) ask something yours or your fellow countrymen who in lot of threads accuse India can give answers in binary.

NO THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL.
OR
SHOW THE EVIDENCE.

And as for Pakistan supporting terrorism in India, I am sure that your PM is not going to go to terrorist camps everyday giving them orders. I am talking about things logically also, YOUR TERRITORY is being used for terrorism agains other countries, TAKE OWNERSHIP, SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

When GoI makes allegations it is easy for other people to believe because, your government ACKNOWLEDGES that there are your so called "NON STATE TERRORIST" bastards are there in your own country.

But GoP is not able to make such claims with any basis. The thing is I am not able to see even a minimum credible basis on the accusations of Pakistan. And mostly the basis mentioned in this forum is weaklings like Hindu country/Akand Bharat/our domestic problems/RAW-CIA-MOSSAD etc... not even as credible as GoI accepting NON STATE ACTORS. This is worrisome and insane as well.

If you believe in what the GoI says, despite the lack of evidence, then you have no business asking Pakistanis for evidence. When you can condemn GoI statements lacking evidence as I asked, then I can support your position. Till then, we have no need to provide evidence just like the GoI provides no evidence.

 

[T-Faz]

Every ten years, India becomes overtly optimistic that Pakistan would soon be over and done with, this happened ten years ago when after ten years of sanction, Pakistan suffered greatly. The sanctions were passed because of our nuclear program. This is what CIA operative Milt Braden said.

“Until September 11th, they (Indians) thought they’d won this thing—they had Pakistan on the ropes.” Because of its nuclear program, he said, “Pakistan was isolated and sanctioned by the United States, with only China left as an ally."

Now recently the world media on the behest of US decided to declare Pakistan a failed state overlooking our growth and reforms that made such a positive impact that everyone was chirping about in the middle of the last decade. They all declared Pakistan to be a failed nation that will die a sudden death, war broke out and the President of USA was threatening Pakistan repeatedly, economy collapsed and things looked very bleak.

Indians through they won it again, just like they thought that won when the Soviets invaded and at the end of 90's. But things turned around and we picked ourselves back up, we are reviving our economy, defeating the militants/terrorists and quashed the insurgency in Balochistan.

On top of it all we are getting nuclear plants, weapons, aid and a big say in an important war in our neighborhood.

This humiliated and hurt the indian psyche, once again their wished were not to be. They went ahead with their sneaky little games hoping one day the thorn in their eyesight's that is Pakistan, disappears somehow.

Keep passing comments and veiled insults, we are here to stay and you will always have to deal with that.

 

[prototype]

The plebiscite was carried out after India invaded the territory and occupied the State, despite the ruler of Junagadh acceding to Pakistan. Why should Pakistan accept such a plebiscite?
You cannot have it both ways - claim legitimacy by invading one Princely State despite its accession to Pakistan, and claiming foul play when Pakistan did the same in J&K.

You are either an outsider in Junagadh, or an outsider in Kashmir - you cannot have it both ways.

After protracted negotiations a cease-fire was agreed to by both countries, which came into effect. The terms of the cease-fire as laid out in the UNCIP resolution. of August 13, 1948 were adopted by the UN on January 5, 1949. This required Pakistan to withdraw its forces, both regular and irregular, while allowing India to maintain minimum strength of its forces in the state to preserve law and order. On compliance of these conditions a plebiscite was to be held to determine the future of the territory.

But u never accepted the ceasefire rules then why should we accept the plebiscite,remember it was u who were the aggressors not as