Settle Kashmir and Get the Reward!!!

[UnitedPak]

Sir, the crux of entire argument is India is not willing to conduct the UN vote. We wanted that in Nehru's time now we don't. No-one cane force us and the UN resolution is not binding. Taking a pragmatic view, we are in possession of larger part of land and any solution which possibly can have a negative impact of the position is unacceptable to us. We do not want to raise the issue - Pakistan does, so it will take this initiative (dropping plebiscite as an option) to even bring the issue to negotiation table.

If Pakistan wants a resolution of this issue, certain concessions will be required.

You proved a very good point by disregarding Kashmiri wishes altogether and stating the matter as it is. India simply wants to hold the land.
And as a matter of fact Pakistan holds the strategic parts which are linked to Afghanistan and Central Asia.

Pakistans stake in this conflict is the Kashmiri people. The UN vote is a Kashmiri right. The same right every other region of the British Indian Empire was granted. Your opinion that India no longer wants a vote is irrelevant, hypocritical, selfish, very undemocratic and certainly wont help India in the UNSC.

 

[muse]

September 8, 2009
World Briefing | Asia
Kashmir: Residents Burn Army Trucks
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE

Residents of Sumbha, in Indian-controlled Kashmir, set fire to two army trucks on Monday after one crushed a 7-year-old Muslim girl to death, the police said. The soldiers abandoned the trucks and fled.

 

[Peshwa]

^^^^ What does this have to do with the Topic at hand???

 

[Jatt Boy]

yea we burn bus/truck whatever if such unfortunate thing happens, not on religion basis. Its common in India, mob do justice before police arrives.

 

[Skeptic]

You proved a very good point by disregarding Kashmiri wishes altogether and stating the matter as it is. India simply wants to hold the land.

Are you really that naive to think that international disputes are resolved on emotional and sentimental grounds??? Or is this just a facade of ignorance to push forward agenda.

Is Pakistan not willing to expand its territorial possession in Kashmir under the mask of public opinion.

And as a matter of fact Pakistan holds the strategic parts which are linked to Afghanistan and Central Asia

Good and we are satisfied with status quo.

Pakistans stake in this conflict is the Kashmiri people. The UN vote is a Kashmiri right.

No it is not. Entire UN resolution was based on the voluntary participation of India and Pakistan, India has opted out. We no longer follow the policies Nehru did. It was 1947 and its 2009.

The same right every other region of the British Indian Empire was granted.

Really, how many states / regions conducted a UN vote to decide annexation? From every region the maharajas / ruling class signed a document, so did Kashmir. You can keep on disputing with claims of duress / pressure but that will not change the scenario.

Your opinion that India no longer wants a vote is irrelevant, hypocritical, selfish, very undemocratic and certainly wont help India in the UNSC.

UNSC is a different ballgame, open a thread for same for another debate. Kashmir is not the price India is willing to pay for a UNSC seat.

Once and for all, Does the UN plebiscite offer an option of independence? What if Kashmiris want complete independence from India and Pakistan. No Sir, UNSC does not allow that option, so basically Pakistan is playing the game with loaded dices, pretending that UN resolution offers 3 option when it does only two.

 

[dabong1]

Sir, the crux of entire argument is India is not willing to conduct the UN vote. We wanted that in Nehru's time now we don't. No-one cane force us and the UN resolution is not binding. Taking a pragmatic view, we are in possession of larger part of land and any solution which possibly can have a negative impact of the position is unacceptable to us. We do not want to raise the issue - Pakistan does, so it will take this initiative (dropping plebiscite as an option) to even bring the issue to negotiation table.

If Pakistan wants a resolution of this issue, certain concessions will be required.

That good.....well you also understand then pakistan will carry on helping the freedom fighters in kashmir.......you cant stop us and so cant the the UN.

---------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 PM ----------

Read my previous post.....

Read mine also

 

[Skeptic]

That good.....well you also understand then pakistan will carry on helping the freedom fighters in kashmir.......you cant stop us and so cant the the UN.

Are you serious. While discussions with Musharraf, the scenario was same as I mentioned. No Plebiscite and a solution outside that. If not for internal troubles within Pakistan, who know we might have had some sort of solution as well. Pakistan atleast reduced the support and we were on negotiation table.

How do you propose UN Plebiscite as a solution, when it does not offer independence as an option, while most Pakistanis promote it in that manner.

Any solution to Kashmir will be outside this UN vote and only through bilateral / trilateral talks.
Wake up, out of your self hypnotized state.No one is scared of continuing Pakistani support to militancy. Voices from within Pakistan have already started protesting the self destructing course of supporting this terrorism conducted in veil of freedom struggle.

 

[dabong1]

well the removal of the forces from both sides should have been done when the resolution was passed..the application of the resolution does not lie when the pakistanis mood changes.they dint agree to remove there forces in 1948...and chose a war of attrition.now when the war of attrition and all other methods employed have failed, they agree suddenly to agree to the resolution to the letter.it does not work with the mood swings of the pakistani leadership.

The same way your mood cnages when it comes to the UN in kashmir is the same way our mood changes.
Why waste time and pretend your some sort of a peacemaker or compromise finder when all your doing is coming out with excuse after excuse.......admit it theres no way you will win a vote in kashmir and that why you want any method but a democratic one.

also as u say that NA, AJK and the part with china would be ready to vote(including aksai chin annexed in1962),but the whole point of the arguement rests on the fact that the demography,map of J&K should not have changed since 1948.well the answer is in the question.isnt it...and yeah we come back again to the first point.the first part of the resolution was not completed..cant proceed to the 2nd part.

Another flimsy fact......the demography has not changed on the pakistani side.......you forget it was the indians trying to force non muslims into moving into the valley to cahnge the demograpics but it failed.
Another fact you seemed to have have picked up from dodgy indian sources.

the arguement again rests on the UN resolution which was never followed.and ur asking of a plebiscite in other indian states and pakistani states,well that is exactly what i say.self determination call from some ppl in a state cannot be acceded to by india or pakistan,to keep the integrity of our respective countries.and the same applies to balochistan and J&K.ppl may ask for self-determination,that does not mean we are going to give it to them.and as u say j&k is disputed,well its disputed cus pakistan keeps sending terrorists across the border.once pakistan stops the dispute is over.

I hope you read the bit where i say there is no UN resolution on balochistan,punjab,assam ect.......there is one on kashmir and that why there are UN observers on the LOC.

and i never said pakistan would be over,its a self destructive strategy pakistan is following.as i said a bigger country with bigger financial,human,and material resources is going to outlast the other.we r ready to wait till eternity.the LOC area keeps burning while we continue building our economy in the hinterland.i agree there are terror attacks in the hinterland,but they are like pin pricks in such a huge country.and as the hinterland keeps devoloping at 9% growth,the amount of resources available to fight the war at the LOC also keeps increasing.so yeah pakistan can keep continuing the same predictable methods of proxy war.it works fine with us.

Yeah were really on the path of self destruction.......you have been saying that from day one and we have only got stronger.
You forget that we can expand the war to india from kashmir if we want ay time and hook up with all the other freedom movement in india.......Live in your own little fantasy that your some sort of power that the world respect.......you have a couple of pennies and think your millionares.

 

[dabong1]

Are you serious. While discussions with Musharraf, the scenario was same as I mentioned. No Plebiscite and a solution outside that. If not for internal troubles within Pakistan, who know we might have had some sort of solution as well. Pakistan atleast reduced the support and we were on negotiation table.

We have turned the tap off not dismantled it.......if a fair non UN soultion can be reached then good.

How do you propose UN Plebiscite as a solution, when it does not offer independence as a solution, while most Pakistanis promote it in that manner.

The UN Plebiscite is there to carry out the wishes of the people...whatever they want.

Any solution to Kashmir will be outside this UN vote and only through bilateral / trilateral talks.

If bilateral / trilateral talks dont work then its the sword of the UN will be hanging over you.

Wake up, out of your self hypnotized state.No one is scared of

continuing Pakistani support to militancy. Voices from within Pakistan have already started protesting the self destructing course of supporting this terrorism conducted in veil of freedom struggle.[/QUOTE]

I cant wait for the indian to start coming out with ridiculous demands if the bilateral / trilateral talks start making headway.......then all the pakistani-kashmiris will see that the armed struggle is the only way.

 

[Peshwa]

We have turned the tap off not dismantled it.......if a fair non UN soultion can be reached then good.



The UN Plebiscite is there to carry out the wishes of the people...whatever they want.



If bilateral / trilateral talks dont work then its the sword of the UN will be hanging over you.

continuing Pakistani support to militancy. Voices from within Pakistan have already started protesting the self destructing course of supporting this terrorism conducted in veil of freedom struggle.

Dabong....Why do choose to ignore the UN Refugees Link that I posted to read about what's happening in the "Azad Kashmir"??

And you actually have the audacity to say that "The UN Plebiscite is there to carry out the wishes of the people...whatever they want".....
Get off your high horse mate......Pakistani's are no protectors of the moral rights of the Kashmiris.....

"As detailed by Human Rights Watch (HRW) in a 2006 report on the region, individuals and political parties who do not support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan are barred from participating in the political process, standing for election, taking a job with any government institution, or accessing educational institutions."

UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]

 

[Skeptic]

We have turned the tap off not dismantled it.......if a fair non UN soultion can be reached then good.

Whatever the solution, it will need to be outside the UN resolution. After going through several wars, I don't see the trust level Allowing it.

The UN Plebiscite is there to carry out the wishes of the people...whatever they want.

No it is not. Please go through your stuff again. If you find the part mentioning independence of Kashmir, I will owe you an apology.

If bilateral / trilateral talks dont work then its the sword of the UN will be hanging over you.

No sword is hanging anywhere. It is a non-binding arrangement to be executed by consent of India and Pakistan. The ways of troop withdrawal that appear fair to you, do not look the same from this side of border and vice-versa.

I cant wait for the indian to start coming out with ridiculous demands if the bilateral / trilateral talks start making headway.......then all the pakistani-kashmiris will see that the armed struggle is the only way.

We have seen the armed struggle and the kind of results achieved through it. It leads to death and misery nothing else. We have been seeing it since 1989, not much has been achieved.

 

[Skeptic]

Dabong....Why do choose to ignore the UN Refugees Link that I posted to read about what's happening in the "Azad Kashmir"??

Azad kashmir is beyond the scope of discussion for him. Probably never bothered to check - too busy googling for anti India articles.

And you actually have the audacity to say that "The UN Plebiscite is there to carry out the wishes of the people...whatever they want".....
Get off your high horse mate......Pakistani's are no protectors of the moral rights of the Kashmiris.....

Just goes to show the level of propaganda and misinformation in Pakistan. this is how youth is misguided by painting false images.

"As detailed by Human Rights Watch (HRW) in a 2006 report on the region, individuals and political parties who do not support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan are barred from participating in the political process, standing for election, taking a job with any government institution, or accessing educational institutions."

UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]

India controls HRW as well I guess. Further the UN referendum so frequently quoted by some members does not provide an option for independence / freedom of Kashmir. It is just to decide annexation of Kashmir to either India or Pakistan.

 

[advaita]

You proved a very good point by disregarding Kashmiri wishes altogether and stating the matter as it is. India simply wants to hold the land.

Yup we want to hold the land, the people, the culture, the neighbourhood, and not just of kashmir but of every part of India.

We Indians dont keep changing our country, neighbour, religion, faith and culture every year/decade/century/millenia.

We keep developing whatever god gave us and keep improving upon it.

And as a matter of fact Pakistan holds the strategic parts which are linked to Afghanistan and Central Asia.

Yup strategy is what it is all about in Pakistan. And Indians recognise this and will not keep challenging this strategy.

Pakistans stake in this conflict is the Kashmiri people.

Ok i guess you guys care for the kashmiris just the way you cared for the Afghans when you toasted them in your hunt for the strategic depth (whatever that meant)

The UN vote is a Kashmiri right.

Well you guys jumped the gun so many times that it is obvious you had no faith in your claim. And Indians agree.

The same right every other region of the British Indian Empire was granted.

No other region was ever granted this right. Even UN resolution was only one of the options that got lost because of the incessant jumping the gun.

Your opinion that India no longer wants a vote is irrelevant, hypocritical, selfish, very undemocratic

if Indian opinion is irrelevant then i guess there is no need to talk over this issue in any forum.
if Indian opinion is hypocritical and selfish then we are ready to bear the consequences.
if Indian opinion is undemocratic then Pakistan would not be the country we will turn to to learn what is democratic.

and certainly wont help India in the UNSC.

Even if it is so, why does it bother you so much.
We will get what we deserve. We will work to get what we want to deserve.

 

[UnitedPak]

Yup we want to hold the land, the people, the culture, the neighbourhood, and not just of kashmir but of every part of India.

"We" clearly doesn't include Kashmiris or Indian govt wouldn't need 700k troops to hold the land, the people...etc.

We Indians dont keep changing our country, neighbour, religion, faith and culture every year/decade/century/millenia.

Right right. Because your religion/country is a trillion years old and all the past Muslim and British empires that ruled the subcontinent were just a bad dream?

We keep developing whatever god gave us and keep improving upon it.

Humans generally tend to do that.

Ok i guess you guys care for the kashmiris just the way you cared for the Afghans when you toasted them in your hunt for the strategic depth (whatever that meant)

We sheltered millions of them, and still do.

Well you guys jumped the gun so many times that it is obvious you had no faith in your claim. And Indians agree.



No other region was ever granted this right. Even UN resolution was only one of the options that got lost because of the incessant jumping the gun.

Quote: Princely states enjoyed three options: accession to India, accession to Pakistan, or independence. But the choice, according to India's Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru and tacitly endorsed by the British, was to be made by popular referendum in cases where the creed of the ruler varied from the religion of the majority. That fundamental democratic principle had been sternly applied by Nehru with military means in Hyderabad and Junagadh where the rulers were Muslim but their inhabitants largely Hindu. Kashmir presented a converse case: the Maharaja was Hindu but the majority subscribed to Islam.

On November 2, 1947, Prime Minister Nehru reiterated, “We have declared that the fate of Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the people. That pledge we have given and the Maharaja supported it, not only to the people of Kashmir but to the world. We will not and cannot back out of it."

 

[advaita]

“If Hyderabad does not see the writing on the wall, it goes the way Junagadh has gone. Pakistan attempted to set off Kashmir against Junagadh. When we raised the question of settlement in a democratic way, they (Pakistan) at once told us that they would consider it if we applied that policy to Kashmir. Our reply was that we would agree to Kashmir if they agreed to Hyderabad "
- Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel

Hope this clears up who jumped the gun and where.