Settle Kashmir and Get the Reward!!!

[UnitedPak]

My personal opinion is If there are people who want to be part of pakistan ,are allowed their way ..And people who are proud in their country colour should be retained as Indians..and vice versa..
Now problem is of settlement of these kashmiries..It may be so
done that India should hand over one or two districts which supports life more and geographycally well suited for life..In return India should get same quantity of land which have no population from other part of kashmir ..In other words LOC can be changed in to border with some give and take...

So this is just about more land for India? You couldn't have shown your disdain for the democratic process and the promises to the Kashmiri people any better than you just did.

Their should be a plebiscite held in all of Kashmir, and the people should vote for which country they want to join. But knowing that the people of Pakistani Kashmir wouldn't vote for India, would you still demand their land?

There is something really unsettling about your views.

Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris and no one else. Remember this the next time you mock Kashmiris right to their own lands.

 

[beetel]

So this is just about more land for India? You couldn't have shown your disdain for the democratic process and the promises to the Kashmiri people any better than you just did.

You are not enough matured ..Or dont want to mature.
We have a proverb in hindi "ulta chor kothwaal ko daante"
Have yo read my post carefully please tell me where I said more land to India..?

Their should be a plebiscite held in all of Kashmir, and the people should vote for which country they want to join. But knowing that the people of Pakistani Kashmir wouldn't vote for India, would you still demand their land?


This is another heap of bullshit.There will be no loss of territorry for them on the oppositte they will get very good land against those unhibited land .Did they voted for china??

Fate of land given to China to be decided: *** PM[/B]

There is something really unsettling about your views.

Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris and no one else. Remember this the next time you mock Kashmiris right to their own lands.

If you have any genuine concern for those kashmiries you shouldnt have had any objection in what I expressed earlier...Oh I forgot dear You have a big concern over land also ..
Now it became very complicated..
what else .I am afraid our peace process cant come more farther than this.
p.s:I hate hypocrites

 

[dabong1]

My personal opinion is If there are people who want to be part of pakistan ,are allowed their way ..And people who are proud in their country colour should be retained as Indians..and vice versa..
Now problem is of settlement of these kashmiries..It may be so
done that India should hand over one or two districts which supports life more and geographycally well suited for life..In return India should get same quantity of land which have no population from other part of kashmir ..In other words LOC can be changed in to border with some give and take...

What about if india keeps jammu-ladkha and pakstan keeeps NA.....we merge the valley with AJK and have joint pak-indian administration over the area.

 

[beetel]

What about if india keeps jammu-ladkha and pakstan keeeps NA.....we merge the valley with AJK and have joint pak-indian administration over the area.

I appreciate your genuine concern for kashmiries...
IndiaS only concern is if the area demilitarised it can be a breeding ground for terrorist to attack india..Now dont tell me once kashmir dispute settled terrorist wont have any reason to attack India..
Whatever may be the outcome each and every step which will be taken should bring peace and prosperity to long suffered kashmiri people..They are really peace starved people...
Dispute is in its last leg..

 

[civfanatic]

First let me ask one question to pak frens for my better understanding. OK. Kashmir is a land with dispute. Both pakistan and India want that area.
Pakistan claiming that India is illtreating kashmir ppl there and ppl of kashmir wants to be in pakistan so it should come to pakistan as you care of kashmir muslim. is this correct???
How about Hindu kashmir ppl? Do pakistan interst in their welfare too...Did pakistan protested when they got killed....???

Next will pakistan offer free citizenship/employement etc facilites to kashmir ppl so if kashmir ppl fed up with india can move to pakistan and live there??? This ensures pakistan not looking for land but cares for ppl.

Second why did pakistan gave a big part of kashmir to China...is it to impress them? or is to increase tension in the area by brining them in. Do you support that?

kashmir is very important geological place. Loosing it is against interst of India. We have rivers there so that bilateral relation with pakistan can be maintained. Its closer to russia and by allowing kashmir to pakistan delhi would be in big danger. So no matter what ever ppl tell about kashmir it will be with india. We will try to help kashmir ppl as much we can. May be it will take 1-2 generations for complete peace. but no compramise on this.

Why would Kashmiri’s leave there land because a wanabe superpower is obstinate and has employed every deceitful trick and limitless violence to perpetuate its illegitimate occupation of our land. We will never leave Kashmir, we will fight for our land, we will die for it but we will never leave it. we will never allow you to declare victory.
We kashmiri’s have made hundred thousand sacrifices in past twenty years for our freedom and in future you will find us ever ready for more .When we say we want Pakistan we say that we want every bit of kashmir to be pakistan .We want every river, every village ,every mountain to be pakistan .
The sad truth for you is is that New Delhi's moral isolation from the Kashmiri people is total and irreversible. Its moral isolation on Kashmir is nearly total, and unlikely to be overcome by military means or political manipulation. New Delhi commands not a shred of legitimacy among Kashmiri Muslims. India's standing in Kashmir appears untenable. Stop being delusional and face reality .we would never leave Kashmir for Pakistan but will make Kashmir Pakistan

 

[tambaramblog]

Dear Brothers!

Its your perception that terror will not end in the region after the settlement of Kashmir either as a free nation or emerging into Pakistan.
Ever you think why Mujahideens (for you militants) cross the LOC? for what cause?
Most of the indian think that they are brain washed poor guys who mostly caught into the jihadies hands. But in actual the ground realities are totally different. As you both seem to be Muslim by name so it is much easier for me to tell you that its belong to Muslim belief that If one Muslim is in trouble than its duty of another Muslim to help him.
According to Human rights Watch So far their are 82,946 innocent muslim died in Kashmir by Indian forces. Thats what create trouble for muslims living in Pakistan. Have you ever heared about any casualties in Pakistani held Kashmir???

"In The budget 2008, there was a massive loan waiver of INR60,000 crore, to all poor farmers who had taken loans. "

But Brother i still read daily suicidal cases of formers committing suicide in groups due to heavy interest on loans etc. Anyhow the poverty and hunger issues are still there.

India can't become even a regional power when there are bilateral issues there

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If one Muslim is in trouble than its duty of another Muslim to help him

Incredible quote isn't it. I have heard it from my muslim friend. But, here in southern India the interpretation is quite different. They help the fellow muslims by donating some part of they money, or help facilitate HAJJ Pilgrimage, or help for medical treatment, etc.

Why wasn't no body helping Afghanistan when United States attacked it way back in 2001? Why no body is questioning United States when its drones are bombing your country. Innocent muslims were in trouble in these places as well. Are they(mujahideens) scared of United states.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

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Why wasn't no body helping Afghanistan when United States attacked it way back in 2001?

Is the US fighting an insurgency in Switzerland?

Why no body is questioning United States when its drones are bombing your country.

Check out the Drone attack threads to see these 'no body's' questioning.

If you are going to resurrect dead threads, at least stay on-topic.

 

[dabong1]

If one Muslim is in trouble than its duty of another Muslim to help him

Unless his an idiot.

Why wasn't no body helping Afghanistan when United States attacked it way back in 2001? Why no body is questioning United States when its drones are bombing your country. Innocent muslims were in trouble in these places as well. Are they(mujahideens) scared of United states.

I dont agree with the war in afghanistan but the US has every right to attack any country that has attacked it.
The way the war has been fought is wrong and the US should never have invaded instead it should done targeted killings-bombings-special ops.......the taliban could have handed OBL over to the saudis.......they where told by every muslim scholar not to blow the buddha statues......ect but they never listened.
Saying that the taliban dont need the muslim ummahs help...its only the americans which the taliban will defeat.

 

[mehwish92]

Unless you can show me where the UN charter says they are 'outdated' or have 'expired' they are not. Kofi Annan's statement does not alter the status of the resolutions, it was his personal opinion. Let me know on what legal basis/UN charter, Annan's statement changes the status of the resolutions.

UNSC resolutions do not have an expiration date, not to mention that under the rules of partition/accession, any disputed accession was to have been decided by a plebiscite.

All of this was agreed to by the GoI and GoP and the international community - you cannot just take an agreement and call it 'outdated' because it doesn't fit your wishes anymore.

The fact remains that the UNSC resolutions offer the ONLY legal, moral and ethical solution to resolving the Kashmri dispute.

The UN Resolution required Pakistan to vacate Kashmir, something they did not do. As a result of this plebiscite was not held in 1948.

Then, In the 1960s, after Pakistan gifted part of Kashmiri territory to China, and the first democratic elections were held in Indian Kashmir (according to Indian constitution, if elections are held in a state, the state is a part of that country). Moreover Pakistan had begun to change the demographics of Azad Kashmir by settling in lare numbers of Punjabis (just as they have been doing in Balochistan). It was after this that India said that plebiscite is no longer feasible and no longer necessary.

Had Pakistan vacated Kashmir when the UN told it to, and had it not gifted part of Kashmir to China, things would have been different.


I'd also like to remind my fellow Pakistanis that it wasn't only Maharaja of Kashmir who acceded to India. Sheikh Abdullah, who was the most popular politician of Kashmir (even majority of Kashmiri Muslims supported him him) had publicly favoured accession to India. He had suggested the Maharaja to choose India.

And I'd also like to remind Pakistanis that when Pakistani army/tribesmen invaded Kashmir, it was the local Kashmiris who initially fought back.

If only Pakistan had let the political movement in Kashmir take its own natural course...

 

[Hellfire]

The sad truth for you is is that New Delhi's moral isolation from the Kashmiri people is total and irreversible. Its moral isolation on Kashmir is nearly total, and unlikely to be overcome by military means or political manipulation. New Delhi commands not a shred of legitimacy among Kashmiri Muslims. India's standing in Kashmir appears untenable. Stop being delusional and face reality .we would never leave Kashmir for Pakistan but will make Kashmir Pakistan

Actually the sad truth is that your contention may not hold much longer as more and more Kashmiri youths venture into mainland India and outside India.
The mere fact that Article 370 exists is the biggest stumbling block in any normalisation of situation. The disillusionment is amongst the youth (and not in the elderly) due to comparatively better education today than previously, higher individual aspirations and the desire to attain objectives set (in pure accordance with Maslow) as also at the same time lack of economic progress and development in Kashmir.
The failure of Indian polity to understand the need for economic development (due to influence of certain Kashmiri politicians whose career is based solely on projecting an image of Kashmiri Champion) has led to the mess that we see there today.
Economic development (and Article 370 is the biggest hurdle in that) will go a long way in mitigating any anti-Indian feelings there.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The UN Resolution required Pakistan to vacate Kashmir, something they did not do. As a result of this plebiscite was not held in 1948.

Incorrect - please see this thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/7904-kashmir-resolutions-explanations.html

The Pakistani withdrawal was contingent upon successful negotiations between Pakistan, India and the UN rapporteur, negotiations that India and Nehru essentially sank.

Then, In the 1960s, after Pakistan gifted part of Kashmiri territory to China, and the first democratic elections were held in Indian Kashmir (according to Indian constitution, if elections are held in a state, the state is a part of that country).

No territory was 'gifted' - the transfer of the administration of the Trans Karakoram tract, at the time uninhabited and barren, does not change the fact that it remains disputed territory.

Pakistan's agreement with China in fact clearly indicates that India and China will have to enter into negotiations over the territory and demarcation of the boundary along the territory, if kashmir is settled in India's favor.

What the Indian constitution says is irrelevant in the context of an international dispute - you cannot for example say that if X number of Indians settle in California, it is an Indian State. The 'Indian constitution says so' argument holds no weight internationally.

Moreover Pakistan had begun to change the demographics of Azad Kashmir by settling in lare numbers of Punjabis (just as they have been doing in Balochistan). It was after this that India said that plebiscite is no longer feasible and no longer necessary.

Stats from a neutral source indicating the impact on demographics please.

Had Pakistan vacated Kashmir when the UN told it to, and had it not gifted part of Kashmir to China, things would have been different.

Please see responses above.

I'd also like to remind my fellow Pakistanis that it wasn't only Maharaja of Kashmir who acceded to India. Sheikh Abdullah, who was the most popular politician of Kashmir (even majority of Kashmiri Muslims supported him him) had publicly favoured accession to India. He had suggested the Maharaja to choose India.

Does not matter what an individual favored, it is the plebiscite in which the opinion of all the people of Kashmir was to be weighed, as validated by the UNSC resolutions, that counts.

And I'd also like to remind Pakistanis that when Pakistani army/tribesmen invaded Kashmir, it was the local Kashmiris who initially fought back.

Untrue - it was the Maharajah's troops that fought back - in fact, before the tribes invaded, there was a local Kashmiri uprising, centered around the Poonch district against the dictator Maharajah, that resulted in the Maharajah sending in troops to crush it with rather brutal tactics that caused the exodus of thousands of Kashmiris into Pakistan, acting as a catalysts for the Tribal invasion.

If only Pakistan had let the political movement in Kashmir take its own natural course...

If only India had not reneged on its commitment and the rules of partition and allowed the Kashmiris to exercise self-determination to choose which nation they wished to be part of.

 

[blackbriar]

First the whole arguement abt kashmir between india and pakistan cannot intersect because they are completely opposite and facts are lost in history.
well lets logically go thru the situation.
1. india says pakistan sent mujahideens in 1948 to invade J&K to occupy a free state at the time.the J&K ruler asked indias help, india in turn asked him to accede to india.the ruler agreed.india sent in forces and later ceasefire as mandated by UN was declared at the present LOC.
2.Pakistan says india invaded a muslim majority land and tried occupying it.pakistan sent mujahideen to stop the indian forces.UN mandated ceasefire declared at LOC.

none if this can be substantiated now cus for every proof pakistan gives there is a counter proof provided by the indians.

3.so now we go to the UN resolution.the UN resolution asks for a plebiscite of J&K ppl according to whose wish would it go to pakistan or india.But here the UN resolutin also says that the indian and pakistan forces should retreat completely out of kashmir before the plebiscite takes place.neither the indian nor the pakistani forces retreated.if the first part of the resolution is not completed we cannot move to the second part.hence no plebiscite.
4.now the situation is pakistan wants a plebiscite done in J&K.India does not.this is because the J&K of 1947 is no more the J&K today.pakistans part of J&K has been broken in to northern areas azad kashmir and a part given to china. a part of indian j&k is with china, the rest is as it was in1947.
5.then pakistan also says that ppl shuld have the right of self determination.although it may sound aesthetically correct, it is flawed.suppose if we follow this policy then for that matter ppl of balochistan also want freedom and selfdetermonation.the pakistanis may reply that its a very small part.well the indians would then reply its also a very small part of ppl in kashmir who want self determination.the pakistanis would reply then have a plebiscite,the indians would again point to the 3rd and 4th point.also the indians would also go ahead and ask the pakistanis to have a plebiscite in balochistan.
6.also if the demand of a few ppl for self determination is acceded to a country if it is pakistan or india or china or whatever it may b,would never remain unified.tomorrow haryana may say it wants independence,or sindh may say it wants independence,pakistan or india would never remain what our founding fathers gave us.
7.finallly i understand pakistan's water resources come from indian j&k,but so does indias.pakistan has decided to continue a war of attrition to get j&k,but an economically and more populated india is going to outlast and exhaust pakistan in this race.j&k is a part of india for the ppl of india,yeh pathar pe likha hua sach hai.it can not be erased.we will keep fighting the mujahideen till eternity send men money weapons from all over this contry but never give in to the terrorists.
also cus of this hostility from pakistan, india also creates trouble in balochistan.also this hostility provides food for the hawks to build more dams and but more weapons just to spite the pakistanis.its just a way to rub it in that if u want to fight a war of attrition, well we are going to fight u keep making it exhaustive and uneconomical for u.the pakistanis are falling in this trap,buying more weapons spending more on the mujahdeen and slowly creeping to the edge of the cliff.
solution:the only solution is making LOC international boundary and argue all water wars in a international court of law.
india was not built on religious ground so we do not take the arguemnt that j&k is muslim dominated.so what if its muslim dominated,india is our identity,not religion.

 

[Skeptic]

These fascists’ Hindus are leading the whole region into confrontation.

Wow how is that for an opening line to a thread aiming to find a solution and peace while addressing to a nation with about 78% Hindus.

The politics in India is always based upon religion and faith

Well two sweeping generalizations and claiming to seek a solution. aint happening this way my friend.

 

[dabong1]

3.so now we go to the UN resolution.the UN resolution asks for a plebiscite of J&K ppl according to whose wish would it go to pakistan or india.But here the UN resolutin also says that the indian and pakistan forces should retreat completely out of kashmir before the plebiscite takes place.neither the indian nor the pakistani forces retreated.if the first part of the resolution is not completed we cannot move to the second part.hence no plebiscite.

So you would have no problem with the UN sending forces to the LOC and watching over a gradual withdrawl process of armed forces from both sides.....pakistan would support this proposal and maybe both ambassadors to the UN could put this propsal forward.

4.now the situation is pakistan wants a plebiscite done in J&K.India does not.this is because the J&K of 1947 is no more the J&K today.pakistans part of J&K has been broken in to northern areas azad kashmir and a part given to china. a part of indian j&k is with china, the rest is as it was in1947.

Pakistan is willing for the people of NA and AJK to to take part in a UN vote.....am sure we can get the chinese to let the people living on snow peaked mountain tops take part in the election also......are you willing to have election in your bit under the UN?

5.then pakistan also says that ppl shuld have the right of self determination.although it may sound aesthetically correct, it is flawed.suppose if we follow this policy then for that matter ppl of balochistan also want freedom and selfdetermonation.the pakistanis may reply that its a very small part.well the indians would then reply its also a very small part of ppl in kashmir who want self determination.the pakistanis would reply then have a plebiscite,the indians would again point to the 3rd and 4th point.also the indians would also go ahead and ask the pakistanis to have a plebiscite in balochistan.
6.also if the demand of a few ppl for self determination is acceded to a country if it is pakistan or india or china or whatever it may b,would never remain unified.tomorrow haryana may say it wants independence,or sindh may say it wants independence,pakistan or india would never remain what our founding fathers gave us.

So seem to forget that theres are UN resolutions and the promises of nehru to the people of kashmir and there are no UN resolutions concerning balochistan.....if you want to go down that path then why cant the peoples of Punjab,Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, Andhra Pradesh, Tripura ect also have the same non UN benfit that balochistan gets.
Jammu and Kashmir is a disputed territory and not recognised as an Indian integral part, according to the International community.....the same does not apply when it comes Balochistan,Punjab,Arunachal Pradesh, Assam.

7.finallly i understand pakistan's water resources come from indian j&k,but so does indias.pakistan has decided to continue a war of attrition to get j&k,but an economically and more populated india is going to outlast and exhaust pakistan in this race.j&k is a part of india for the ppl of india,yeh pathar pe likha hua sach hai.it can not be erased.we will keep fighting the mujahideen till eternity send men money weapons from all over this contry but never give in to the terrorists.
also cus of this hostility from pakistan, india also creates trouble in balochistan.also this hostility provides food for the hawks to build more dams and but more weapons just to spite the pakistanis.its just a way to rub it in that if u want to fight a war of attrition, well we are going to fight u keep making it exhaustive and uneconomical for u.the pakistanis are falling in this trap,buying more weapons spending more on the mujahdeen and slowly creeping to the edge of the cliff.
solution:the only solution is making LOC international boundary and argue all water wars in a international court of law.
india was not built on religious ground so we do not take the arguemnt that j&k is muslim dominated.so what if its muslim dominated,india is our identity,not religion.

We have been fighting you guys from day one and have heard the same lame prophecies for years that pakistan would be finished and india will be some graet power.....please give it a rest.

 

[Skeptic]

So you would have no problem with the UN sending forces to the LOC and watching over a gradual withdrawl process of armed forces from both sides.....pakistan would support this proposal and maybe both ambassadors to the UN could put this propsal forward.



Pakistan is willing for the people of NA and AJK to to take part in a UN vote.....am sure we can get the chinese to let the people living on snow peaked mountain tops take part in the election also......are you willing to have election in your bit under the UN?




So seem to forget that theres are UN resolutions and the promises of nehru to the people of kashmir and there are no UN resolutions concerning balochistan.....if you want to go down that path then why cant the peoples of Punjab,Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, Andhra Pradesh, Tripura ect also have the same non UN benfit that balochistan gets.
Jammu and Kashmir is a disputed territory and not recognised as an Indian integral part, according to the International community.....the same does not apply when it comes Balochistan,Punjab,Arunachal Pradesh, Assam.



We have been fighting you guys from day one and have heard the same lame prophecies for years that pakistan would be finished and india will be some graet power.....please give it a rest.

Sir, the crux of entire argument is India is not willing to conduct the UN vote. We wanted that in Nehru's time now we don't. No-one cane force us and the UN resolution is not binding. Taking a pragmatic view, we are in possession of larger part of land and any solution which possibly can have a negative impact of the position is unacceptable to us. We do not want to raise the issue - Pakistan does, so it will take this initiative (dropping plebiscite as an option) to even bring the issue to negotiation table.

If Pakistan wants a resolution of this issue, certain concessions will be required.