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Settle Kashmir and Get the Reward!!!

This is not about which countries gain. This is about the will of the people of Kashmir.
I do realise that the Kashmir plebiscite would be very uncertain for India because of the majority Muslim population, but this is the democratic way of life. And since we Pakistanis love everything democracy, we wouldn't settle for anything less than democracy when dealing with the worlds biggest democracy.

After all we are the worlds 5th biggest democracy and we have a reputation to uphold.

I would suggest you look up Pakistans democratic record in a little case called Junagadh. This case involved a Muslim ruler with a Hindu majority state. The ruler voted to accede to Pakistan, India caused trouble, and a plebiscite happened in this case because Pakistan could not bear the thought of the Hindu people of Junagadh losing their right to self determination.

There you have it.

Interesting example of Junagadh. Thanks for the information, I didn't know a referendum was held there. But one key point to note: the referendum was held under Indian control. I'm not sure if Pakistan controlled the area the referendum would have taken place. We have already agreed that a region/district wise referendum should be held. The point is can this be a reality? How can you ensure that this referendum ever takes place.

The point of Pakistan being a democracy makes me smile, you've been democratic for 2 years in the past decade. If Pakistani's themselves cannot choose their government and let your army conduct a coup every few years, its difficult to believe your sincerity. Democracy has to be protected by citizens blood.

Do read this kashmiri blog:
http://kashmir-truth-be-told.blogspot.com/2008/08/independence-viable-option.html
 
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I would suggest you look up Pakistans democratic record in a little case called Junagadh. This case involved a Muslim ruler with a Hindu majority state. The ruler voted to accede to Pakistan, India caused trouble, and a plebiscite happened in this case because Pakistan could not bear the thought of the Hindu people of Junagadh losing their right to self determination.

There you have it.

Some more facts:
NationMaster - Encyclopedia: Indian Integration of Junagadh
 
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Let me ask you few counter questions;

1. Was there any plebiscite in India when Pakistan was created ?
2. If muslims could rule majority Hindu nation for 100s of years, why can't it be other way?
3. As per one of pakistani site (http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/muhajirs.html) majority of muslims came to India in search of jobs. As per this site very few are the local converts. If that is the case, why shouldn't these people put claims in their own original countries ?

We can go on putting claims and counter claims. Its not going to help till we come out with a solution which is acceptable to all sides and is implementable.

RK

1. Yes - it was through the elections the Muslims league and like minded parties won. Baluchistan and FATA had Jirga's determine their final status, and NWFP had a full fledged referendum.

2. Its not about Muslims ruling Hindus or Hindus ruling Muslims, its about the various peoples of a territory united by the occupying British, to determine their destiny and decide how they want to live it. No one split up India, India and Pakistan were both created out of multiple Kingdoms, princely states and peoples occupied by the British, some of whom decided to join India, and others Pakistan, with Kashmir still unresolved.

3. No clue about that site and this 'Muslims came to India as immigrants'. You should ask the Muslims in India that question. They are India's responsibility. We are concerned about the Kashmiris, who I believe have inhabited the region for a long time.

A district-wise referendum is implementable in my opinion, that way Hindu/Buddhist majority areas do not have to go with Pakistan, if they choose.
 
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The point is can this be a reality? How can you ensure that this referendum ever takes place.

The referendum should take place with both sides agreeing in the UNSC to abide by the results of a UN held and monitored referendum in Kashmir, and withdraw troops from geographically contiguous districts that choose the other nation, immediately after the results are validated by the UN and international community.

This would ensure that neither country has to worry about prematurely withdrawing troops and allowing the other to take control of the territory militarily. Withdrawals would only occur in areas that go to the other side.

The international media, as well as media from both nations should be allowed full presence - blanket the territory with cameras, journalists and monitors from the EU, US, Asia, LA, UN to ensure no skulduggery is contemplated and the process is transparent.

The referendum can be held, what is needed is the will to do it.
 
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The United Nations, India And Kashmir

By Dr. Ghulam Nabi Fai

08 January, 2008
Countercurrents.org

If promises are made to be broken, then Kashmir may be summoned to prove the treacherous proposition. Broken promises haunt Kashmir's history, and explain its tragedy.

The United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan (UNCIP) passed a resolution on January 5, 1949 wherein it was agreed that “the question of the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan will be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite.” The resolution was negotiated with both India and Pakistan and accepted by all five members of the Commission, Argentina, Belgium, Columbia, Czechoslovakia and the United States. Professor Joseph Korbel, father of Dr. Madeleine Albright was the Chairman of the Commission at the time.

Sir Benegal Rama Rau, the Indian delegate spoke during the 399th meeting of the Security Council on January 13, 1949, “On behalf of my Government, I can give the assurance that it will not only cooperate to the utmost with the Commission itself towards a settlement in Kashmir, but also with the United Nations in securing peace everywhere, because it believes that this organization offers the only hope for peace for future generations, on a secure basis.”

Sir Rau further said at the Security Council on March 1, 1951, “The people of Kashmir are not mere chattels to be disposed of according to a rigid formula; their future must be decided on their own interest and in accordance with their own desires.”

Mr. Setalwad, another Indian delegate spoke during the 572nd meeting of the Security Council on January 31, 1952, “I was the first to declare that the people of Jammu and Kashmir should freely decide their own future.”

India, however, was soon undeceived of its delusions over Kashmir's political yearning. Recognizing that its people would never freely vote accession to India, it contrived excuse after excuse to frustrate a plebiscite.

With the lapse of British paramountcy on August 14, 1947, broken promises over Kashmir came not like single spies but in battalions, to borrow from Hamlet. Princely states enjoyed three options: accession to India, accession to Pakistan, or independence. But the choice, according to India's Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru and tacitly endorsed by the British, was to be made by popular referendum in cases where the creed of the ruler varied from the religion of the majority. That fundamental democratic principle had been sternly applied by Nehru with military means in Hyderabad and Junagadh where the rulers were Muslim but their inhabitants largely Hindu. Kashmir presented a converse case: the Maharaja was Hindu but the majority subscribed to Islam.

On November 2, 1947, Prime Minister Nehru reiterated, “We have declared that the fate of Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the people. That pledge we have given and the Maharaja supported it, not only to the people of Kashmir but to the world. We will not and cannot back out of it."


In recent past, Dr. Manmohan Singh, the Prime Minister of India and General Pervez Musharraf, the President of Pakistan agreed at the United Nations on September 24, 2004 “to explore all the possible options to settle the issue of Kashmir.” Then exactly one year later, Prime Minister said at the United Nations on September 16, 2005, “What I do believe, I have also said that borders cannot be redrawn but we must work together to make borders irrelevant.” One fails to understand how can you explore all possible options when the only option available is to make borders irrelevant (status quo).

On September 5, 2005, Dr. Manmohan Singh promised Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Chairman, All Parties Hurriyet Conference that India will have zero tolerance on the human rights violations in Kashmir. Then he responded while replying to a question during a press conference in New York that “The fact that there is so much of violence (in Kashmir), the fact that cross border infiltration continues, the terrorists are active, does impose some burden on the ordinary citizens.”

The train of broken promises over Kashmir might be forgiven if the consequences were innocuous or inconsequential. But I submit the opposite is the case. India exerts an iron-fisted rule over Kashmir. With approximately 700,000 military and paramilitary troops in the territory, gruesome human rights violations are perpetrated with. Torture, rape, plunder, abduction, arson, custodial disappearances, arbitrary detentions, and ruthless suppression of peaceful political dissent have become commonplaces.

Let us hope that the last promise over Kashmir has been broken.

The United Nations, India And Kashmir By Dr. Ghulam Nabi Fai
 
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Would like to share a poem in context of indain brutalities in occupied Kashmir


Zulm phir zulm hai, bart-ta hai to mitt jata hai
Khun phir khun hai, tapkay ga to jum jaiga

Cruelty is after all cruelty ----when it inflates, it dissipates,
Blood is after all blood ----- when it drips, it coagulates


Khak-i-Sehra pay jamay yaa kaf-e-qatil pay jamay
Firq-e-insaaf pay yaa pai-e-silasal pay jamay
Taigh-i-baydad pay, yaa lash-e-bismil pay jamay
Khun phir khun hai, tapkay ga to jum jaiga
It may congeal on the desert's chest, or on the murderer's sleeve,
on the faulty scales of justice, or on the links of chains,
on the oppressive sword, or on the slaugheterd corpse,
Blood is after all blood ----- when it drips, it coagulates


Lakh Bethay koi chup chup key Kami(n) Gaho(n) mei(n)
Khun khud deta hai jalado(n) key maskan ka suragh
Sazishe(n) lakh urati rahei(n) zulmat ka niqaab
Ley key har boond nikati hai hatha
One may hide in whichever shelter one likes,
blood itself reveals the executioner's hide-out.
Conspiracies may cast around the veil of darkness;
yet, every drop of blood carries its own burning torch.

Tum ne jis khun ko maktal mei(n) dabana chaha
Aaj wo kucha-o-bazaar mei(n) Aa nikla hai
Kahi(n) Shola, kahi(n) narah, kahi(n) pathar ban ke
Khun chalta hai to rukta nahi(n) Sangeeno se
Sar Uthta hai to dubta nahi(n) Aaeeno(n) se
The blood which you tried to suppress in the abattoir,
today has rushed out in the streets and squares ----
as a flame, or battle-cry, or as a stone,
Once blood starts flowing, the bayonets can not restrain it.
Once blood lifts its head, the ordinances can not constrain it.


Zulm ki baat hi kya, zulm ki Aukaat hi kya
Zulm bass zulm hai Aaghaaz se Anjaam talak
Khun phir khun hai, Soa Shakal Badal Sahta hai
Aisi Shakle(n) kah mitao to mitaye na banay
Aisey Sholey keh Bhujao to bhujao na banay
Aisey Narey keh dabao to dabaye na banay
What is to be said about cruelty! What is cruelty's nature?
Cruelty is always cruelty--- from its beginning to its end.
Blood is after all blood, it can take so many forms,
forms which cannot be destroyed,
flames which cannot be extinguished,
cries which cannot be silenced.


Sahir Ludhianvi (1921-80)
 
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I am in favour of refferandum..But Independent kashmir should be a option ..I am not for district wise plebsite as it will create border problems..
At most it can be a region wise plebicite ..
If plebcite is the only solution then India will go for this independent option as it will create a buffer zone..And it is more democratic..:what:

And now comes the problem
what will be the most likely outcome..
let us assume religion plays a part here and kashmiries on Indian side and pakistan side will go for either independence or for pakistan..Here It can be said that majority in jammu and laddakh will go for India or independence(unlikely)

Here The point is if independent kashmir come to existence how much land it will absorb from two countries in current situation..?Are these two countries ready to compromise on these issue?
Finally kashmiriyath can vote for a seperate nation but can it sustain that nation???
 
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I am in favour of refferandum..But Independent kashmir should be a option ..I am not for district wise plebsite as it will create border problems..
At most it can be a region wise plebicite ..
If plebcite is the only solution then India will go for this independent option as it will create a buffer zone..And it is more democratic..:what:

And now comes the problem
what will be the most likely outcome..
let us assume religion plays a part here and kashmiries on Indian side and pakistan side will go for either independence or for pakistan..Here It can be said that majority in jammu and laddakh will go for India or independence(unlikely)

Here The point is if independent kashmir come to existence how much land it will absorb from two countries in current situation..?Are these two countries ready to compromise on these issue?
Finally kashmiriyath can vote for a seperate nation but can it sustain that nation???

My god and indian that budged on the issue of kashmir.....hallelujah.

I floated a couple of ideas before that need a bit of workin on but could be achieved.

1.The president of kashmir is rotated every year between the indian and pakistan president.

2.All three flags flown on public buildings.

3.Kashmir to have no military-foreign postions......the kashmiri wishes are represented through the indian-pak embassies.

4.elected memebers of the kashmir parliment are represented in the pak-india parliments.

5.Pakistan pays for the resettling of hindu kashmiri refugees and india pays for the resettling of muslim kashmiri refugees.

6.People with pakistani-indian passports keep the same documentation but are issued a kashmir citizen card.

7.Merge the two police forces.
 
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haha let me end it here Give Kashmir to Pakistan live happy and drink alot of coca cola
 
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haha let me end it here Give Kashmir to Pakistan live happy and drink alot of coca cola

why will india give kashmir to pak? india can control main agriculture of pak from kashmir
see my another post...pak is buying wheat from india...
 
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My god and indian that budged on the issue of kashmir.....hallelujah.

I floated a couple of ideas before that need a bit of workin on but could be achieved.

1.The president of kashmir is rotated every year between the indian and pakistan president.

2.All three flags flown on public buildings.

3.Kashmir to have no military-foreign postions......the kashmiri wishes are represented through the indian-pak embassies.

4.elected memebers of the kashmir parliment are represented in the pak-india parliments.

5.Pakistan pays for the resettling of hindu kashmiri refugees and india pays for the resettling of muslim kashmiri refugees.

6.People with pakistani-indian passports keep the same documentation but are issued a kashmir citizen card.

7.Merge the two police forces.

You are pretty optimistic freind..But your above idea is theorytical and practically impossible especially between our countries..As there are a number of sections and number of views..
We are fools if we wont look for after effects of this..
What is its effect on Indian psyche and society..?secularism will loose a limb..
What will be its effect on pakistani society specially in North west frontier...
What purpose will it serve..?
It will make problem complicated than present..
 
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You are pretty optimistic freind..But your above idea is theorytical and practically impossible especially between our countries..As there are a number of sections and number of views....

If i go of your logic "its theorytical and practically impossible" to turn the LoC into the border or let india annex kashmir from the pakistani perspective.


We are fools if we wont look for after effects of this..
What is its effect on Indian psyche and society..?secularism will loose a limb....

We are also fools if we dont look at the effets of the kashmir dipute in the future between pak-india.
I have said that the kashmiris on the indian side of kashmir keep there indan passports and participate in the the indian election...how will this effect your secularism?
The kashmiris on the pakistani side of kashmir participate in the pakistani election.The peole of kasmir also have kashmir specfic elections where non military-foreign issues are debated.


What will be its effect on pakistani society specially in North west frontier.....

If the kashmir issue is fudged in such a way that the indians think they have won,the pakistanis think they have won and the kashmiris think they have won it will only have a postive effect for all.
I could ask you the question what efect would it have indian society especially in the Hindu right wing states......with the kashmir issue solved would these parties have the excuse of anti muslim-pakistani rallying call .


What purpose will it serve..?
It will make problem complicated than present..

Nothing more then indian excuses to get nothing done on kashmir.....if its not one thing its another.

You have to understand that each time pakistan try to move on the issue the indians somehow derail or start asking for preconditions to be forfilled.

I know the indians are never going to to come to a fair compromise on kashmir and the only forward is jihad.
Pakistan needs to train and arm a kashmiri hezbollah that can take the fight to the indians.
This would also be a solution for pakistan fighting in the NWFP , fighters can be drained away from mehsud and co end send into kashmir......This will sort two of pakistans headaches out as it stops fighters from crossing into afghanistan and stops attacks on pak military, instead these guys are sent to kashmir to fight the indian army.

Its been under a decade pakistan has been trying to come to sort of peacfull settlement with india but nothing.......you wanted the stopping of "cross border movement" which pakistan did but with no major reward.
We need to fight for kashmir as the dialogue has bought nothing but a bus.
 
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If i go of your logic "its theorytical and practically impossible" to turn the LoC into the border or let india annex kashmir from the pakistani perspective.




We are also fools if we dont look at the effets of the kashmir dipute in the future between pak-india.
I have said that the kashmiris on the indian side of kashmir keep there indan passports and participate in the the indian election...how will this effect your secularism?
The kashmiris on the pakistani side of kashmir participate in the pakistani election.The peole of kasmir also have kashmir specfic elections where non military-foreign issues are debated.




If the kashmir issue is fudged in such a way that the indians think they have won,the pakistanis think they have won and the kashmiris think they have won it will only have a postive effect for all.
I could ask you the question what efect would it have indian society especially in the Hindu right wing states......with the kashmir issue solved would these parties have the excuse of anti muslim-pakistani rallying call .




Nothing more then indian excuses to get nothing done on kashmir.....if its not one thing its another.

You have to understand that each time pakistan try to move on the issue the indians somehow derail or start asking for preconditions to be forfilled.

I know the indians are never going to to come to a fair compromise on kashmir and the only forward is jihad.
Pakistan needs to train and arm a kashmiri hezbollah that can take the fight to the indians.
This would also be solution for pakistan fighting in the NWFP where fighters are drained away from mehsud and co end send into kashmir......This will sort two of pakistans headaches out as it stops fighters from crossing into afghanistan and stops attacks on pak military instead these guys are sent to kashmir to fight the indian army.

Its been under a decade pakistan has been trying to come to sort of peacfull settlement with india but nothing.......you wanted the stopping of "cross border movement" which pakistan did but with no major reward.
We need to fight for kashmir as the dialogue has bought nothing but a bus.

this comp erased everything..
any way first of all make yourself clear what will be your aproach and then it will be a fruitful disscussion..
After studying history of our ancestors I came to a conclusion that peace is nothing but a brief period between two wars ..Whatever the forms of these wars but are still relevant today and for future also..So we are ready for both freind and foe out of pakistan
But I feel that coming time will be that period of peace..I hope I am right..otherwise there is a proverb "blood never sleeps"..You shed it ones it will take some more and process continues..
 
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this comp erased everything..
any way first of all make yourself clear what will be your aproach and then it will be a fruitful disscussion..

I think the best thing to do first is to see where we stand on the kashmir issue.
Where do you stand on the kashmir issue.....should pak-india make the LoC the border....should there be a UN referendum in kashmir ect.
Where do you stand?
 
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I think the best thing to do first is to see where we stand on the kashmir issue.
Where do you stand on the kashmir issue.....should pak-india make the LoC the border....should there be a UN referendum in kashmir ect.
Where do you stand?
My personal opinion is If there are people who want to be part of pakistan ,are allowed their way ..And people who are proud in their country colour should be retained as Indians..and vice versa..
Now problem is of settlement of these kashmiries..It may be so
done that India should hand over one or two districts which supports life more and geographycally well suited for life..In return India should get same quantity of land which have no population from other part of kashmir ..In other words LOC can be changed in to border with some give and take...
 
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