Selex ES radar & other technology on JF-17?

[Erroroverload]

Hi,

Basically---an enemy of the state of pakistan would further invest in the F16's---be it BLK52---BLK V or the BLK 61 / 62.

The time for the F16 has come and gone---this love affair and drama of the f16 needs to end.

18 F16 based on the current package would cost around 3 billion dollars----which are equal to 60 + J10C's---60 + J16's or 60 + SU35's.

18 newer F16 do nothing to change the power positioning of the air force----but 60 + aicraft of the chinese or russian descent would make a tremendous difference---.

As for the money for the aircraft---it was available----some idiot made the mistake of doing a 5 billion dollars deal for 8 submarines stretched over a period of 10---12 years---.

But that idiot also gave us the massive second strike capability against India.

 

[Tank131]

Well I wouldnt go as far as Mr @MastanKhan, but the point is valid. The F-16 is far more expensive than the Sukhoi's and they are much more expensive than the JH-7B. The other issue is that as we can see, the US congress is not keen to provide PAF with any more F-16s and this is not likely to change any time soon. Even if the Congress does finally approve it, they will put Pakistan through the same wringer when you order more. BTW, despite the fact that the ACM said newest F-16s, id be surprised if they are the V and not more block 50/52.

PAF needs something that is gonna be more reliable and cost effective. For the price of 18 F-16 you would get 3 sqd of JH-7B with all the associated weaponry and subsystems. Remember, PN F-16s DONT fire harpoon, they don't yet fire H-2, H-4, Ra'ad (nor do I think the US will allow the PAF to modify them to do so given the tight security the US has surrounding the F-16). PAF actually needs to pass through US security to utilize the block 50/52, and they are the ones that own them. Their only stand off weapons are JDAM and AMG-65 (Mavrick), neither of which have a range greater than 80km (JDAM-ER, but I dont think PAF has the ER varient...regular JDAM is 25km), so they are currently not that useful for strike.

The problem is that Su-35 is unlikely to be acquired, and if they are, Pakistan may not be allowed by Russians to use Chinese weapons. And the Chinese are unlikely to be allowed to sell J-11/J-16, so JH-7B is likely the only aircraft available/affordable enough to get. Luckily it has higher range and payload than the Su-30. With an advanced AESA radar (say the one off J-16) it could be useful BVR truck. With its payload and weaponry it will be a great bomb truck. With the proper EW pods it would be a great EW Fighter in the image of EA-18G. It may not have the manouverability of the Sukhoi but is better in that realm than fighters like the Tornado.

As far as the Subs, I think in the short term it would have been better for PN to get 6 subs and 2 Air defense frigates, but in the long run, i hope it wont end up making a difference.

 

[volatile]

Basically---an enemy of the state of pakistan would further invest in the F16's---be it BLK52---BLK V or the BLK 61 / 62.

It was the same when we opted for block 52 in 2007 .

The time for the F16 has come and gone---this love affair and drama of the f16 needs to end.

Well i can say one thing PAF F16 are going to be like mirages are for today .F16 will continue to run depsite of love affair ,sanctions or any thing

18 F16 based on the current package would cost around 3 billion dollars----which are equal to 60 + J10C's---60 + J16's or 60 + SU35's.

If i believe this for one minute the number ,do you know what is the current PAF budget and what part is for future acquisition try to come up 3 Billion US $ with that procurement money .

18 newer F16 do nothing to change the power positioning of the air force----but 60 + aicraft of the chinese or russian descent would make a tremendous difference---.

Well mantra behind F16 V is this .
|You get great advances in your current fleet also tech wise you observe and it creates vision for future tech (this is why chinese need us in there projects as we have observed many tech for the last many decades).

As for the money for the aircraft---it was available----some idiot made the mistake of doing a 5 billion dollars deal for 8 submarines stretched over a period of 10---12 years---.

At the moment this idiot has done which was not done in decades .I am sorry there was too much too differ for me on your post ,as PN is almost extinct and you should know Pakistan second strike deterent is based on this idiot think plan.by the way navy transaction has nothing to do with Air force .

Nothing personnel just i dont agree

 

[Thunder.Storm]

Hi,

The difference is that this size of a fighter reflects the mindset of the paf pilot---what he wants.

Now if as a civilian----defence enthusiaist---my input was asked---my choice would be similar to the japanese---a JF17 slightly larger than the F16---so---basically a J10---.

There is a reason for the size of the JF17---its design structure and what the paf pilot had in mind in how to use and operate this aircraft---.

After flying the F16 for decades---it would betough to find another aircraft to compete with it----so that is where the input of the paf pilots came in---. The JF17 can not have obvious F16 feateures but very similar.

The ease of operation but more so on ease of maintenance---and in this case---only one technician can do the basic maintenance of this aircraft---.

This aircraft is not for show and pomp---like the twin engine twin tails aircraft---but it is rather a work horse.

The only problem that we see over here is the 1 - 2 punch package is not complete. The JF 17 needs to be complimented by a larger aircraft----the likes of J10C---the J16 or something similar---.

It needs a bigger brother to show its maximum potential.




Hi,

In military matters---truth is not always the best policy---deception and deceit is the ultimate goal---.

The JF17 is a cost effective aircraft----actually it an extremely cost effective aircraft. So---the first primary goal and target is already accomplished.

You got you MA degree---and you got a job---you got a decent income and decent living---but now you have the opportunity to do your PhD and then sky is the limit---.

So you say what-----I don't want to be ordinary---I want to be extra-ordinary---I want to be someone special---.

As you have already built up your foundations well---you see an available opportunity that would rocket your progress upwards with a bang. So---you tell your dada and mom and wife and kids that you are on a mission to seek niravana and you need their support to propel you in the right direction. And they all say---" yeah daddy let us do it "---.

And after you get your degree and and get what you wanted---you are now strutting around like a peacock with the feather stuck up his ar-se---.

So---life is not treating the JF17 any different---. It is just telling it---that if it removed that module---it can install a module 10 times more potent in the same place---.

Because as there is a program of building JF17---there are parallel programs being run by other vendors to take it the levels way beyond imagination or whatever the original planning was at the time of conception.

These vendors produce complimentary systems in competition to each other to get the contracts to have their systems installed and in operation.

So---they make the ordinary into extra-ordinary---.

So---when you look at " inexpensive "---you have to take into consideration---" inexpensive in relation to what "---because inexpensive by itself mean nothing---it has to have a comparable replacement.

So---you can have a Honda Accord LX---a Sport package---an EX---an EX-L---EX-l Navi-EXV-L---EXV-L navi( v6 )----.

Growth is a natural progression of things in life---stagnant things die fast.

Hi,

Sir i found your comments very useful and i have a question may be it is off the topic but i have to ask someone then why not to ask you, Dose JF-17 Thunder has Full FBW or not because if it has then why its stick is in center and not in right side like F sola. sorry for the off topic question.

 

[MastanKhan]

But that idiot also gave us the massive second strike capability against India.

Hi,

You kids need to think with your BRAINS----about this navy submarine deal-----here is how it looks.

It has diminished your first strike capability---and has diminished your survival from first strike as well---because you have placed all your navy funds in one bucket----where the delivery of the 5th 6th 7th 8th subs would start from after 6 years from today.

If you had split the deal---you could have had 2 sqdrn's twin engine naval strike aircraft---couple of 054 and a couple of F22's as well and still had 4 subs at you disposal inthe same time.

Then REFRESHED THE DEAL after 5 years and added more funds---.

Children should learn from what is being said---.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

@denel yr views r required. I suggest going through the thread at first.

 

[MastanKhan]

That Idiot who did the submarine deal probably saved Pakistani coast from future seaborne attacks.

Hi,

You are supposedly ex paf----correct me if I am wrong---. And if you think that way---off course the nations military is fckd up----.

So let me explain it for the 20 th time----how the deal should have been structured---.

5 billion dollar deal---delivery of first starts in 1 and 1 / 2 years and the 8 th after 11 to 12 years-----so basically---the 4th will be delivered around 5 to 6 years from now and the rest would take another 5 to 6 additional years.

The deal could have easily been split in half to buy 4 subs and add more funds to the deal after 5 years----to go for the rest.

For the other 2.5 billion----you could get 2 054's 2 F22's---2 sqdrns of JH7B---.

And this would have strengthened the naval fleet in parallel within the same 5 years time frame---.

Sir----knowing you and other military officers, generals and air force personal of pakistan military---I can speak with guarantee that you guys are absolute thoughtless and brainless in how to procure heavy weapons systems---.

All you guys can fall back is that " i would die for my country " and the people go gaga---and as they are equally illiterate in the matters of defense procurement---they start waving the flag.

So---as I stated in the other post----screw the 2nd strike---your brethrens have fckd up the deal so bad---that there would be no chance of survival from the first strike in the first place.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Hi,

The combat radius of the JF 17 in ground strike missions is around 400 to 500 KM---and in air to air missions it is 600 to 700 KM max.

Just because a plane is a multirole plane----it does not change its weight carrying capacity----. The JF 17 is still a chicken little---. With a very limited weight carrying capacity.

You young kids need to use your thinking and stop assuming---. Your enemy----is 3 times your military strength has aircraft which can carry 2 1/2 time the weight of this JF17---and 5 times the number of BVR's.

So--an enemy with its 2 1/2 times hitting capability for its primary strike aircraft is frigging stupid to have that----and the military that is 1 / 3rd the size---it primary strike aircraft has 1 /3rd the hitting capability is strutting around like they have found valhalla----.

On top of that---the enemy's prime strike and air superiority aircraft can loiter around for 5 hours----where your aircraft is only at barely 1 hour----and you guys think of air to air refuelling---which would be taken out by day 2 if not then by the 3rd day---.

Did you young men ever read any books on your air force---that the only time when they had air superiority in 65 and 71 was when they had superior aircraft.

Have you ever read about the 73 ramazan war---what happened to the inferior muslim air force in that war----.

Have you read about the israeli air conflict with syria where the israelis shot down over a 100 syrian aircraft without a single loss----and that was not too long ago---and what was the difference----superior aircraft and weaponery.

You guys really think that your enemy is that big of an idiot to have all these large air superiority aircraft.




Hi,

This thing is a norm in a brand new aircraft that is pushed into service too soon---but even then all new first time aircraft have issues----and JF17 is no different.

Sir,
the problem is real combat is not a video game. Every fighter plane takes off with a specific mission. Its not like a "Sultan Raahi" or "Rajni Kaant" mission, where you will have to engage each and every one. Carry everything with you from Needle to Pen, remain in air inside enemy territory until your fuel gauge starts beeping and you are not left even with 1 bullet.

The only advantage (and thats a big one) IAF has with long range fighters is that, they can place them deep inside India. Coupled with their natural geography, it will place their aircrafts well away from PAF strikes. IAF learned this lesson from 1965 War. In 1971, PAF has only Runways of IAF's FABs to bomb for. Unlike, 1965 there were no aircrafts neatly lined up on bases within reach of PAF fighters. An MKI can fly off from even from Southern India all armed to strike inside Pakistan. They dont need to keep it on Halwara or Adampur, which are hardly 200Kms away from PAF bases.
Other then that it will not be circling around Pakistan for 5 hours. It will drop its bombs, whatever its mission is and leave as early as possible, without waiting for challenge. When its on Air Superiority mission, it will surely wait for some A vs B engagement.
Pilots are human first. They have their physical limits. In situation of war, can you imagine, how much stress is there on pilot? Even after 1 hour mission, he will be physically and mentally challenged to the limits. Here you have 2 pilots. After 5 hours mission, can they fly again for other 24 hours?
Answer is NO.
Kindly also check, Thunder proposed configuration, for various roles.
On every mission, some will be covering the asses, some will be striking..
Rarely, it will be a SOLO flight.

Will love to discuss with you more over it. I think I will learn more out of it. For your interest, check out below article from an IAF officer about medical aspect of long duration flights.
Regards,

http://medind.nic.in/iab/t05/i2/iabt05i2p41.pdf

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir,
the problem is real combat is not a video game. Every fighter plane takes off with a specific mission. Its not like a "Sultan Raahi" or "Rajni Kaant" mission, where you will have to engage each and every one. Carry everything with you from Needle to Pen, remain in air inside enemy territory until your fuel gauge starts beeping and you are not left even with 1 bullet.

The only advantage (and thats a big one) IAF has with long range fighters is that, they can place them deep inside India. Coupled with their natural geography, it will place their aircrafts well away from PAF strikes. IAF learned this lesson from 1965 War. In 1971, PAF has only Runways of IAF's FABs to bomb for. Unlike, 1965 there were no aircrafts neatly lined up on bases within reach of PAF fighters. An MKI can fly off from even from Southern India all armed to strike inside Pakistan. They dont need to keep it on Halwara or Adampur, which are hardly 200Kms away from PAF bases.
Other then that it will not be circling around Pakistan for 5 hours. It will drop its bombs, whatever its mission is and leave as early as possible, without waiting for challenge. When its on Air Superiority mission, it will surely wait for some A vs B engagement.
Pilots are human first. They have their physical limits. In situation of war, can you imagine, how much stress is there on pilot? Even after 1 hour mission, he will be physically and mentally challenged to the limits. Here you have 2 pilots. After 5 hours mission, can they fly again for other 24 hours?
Answer is NO.
Kindly also check, Thunder proposed configuration, for various roles.
On every mission, some will be covering the asses, some will be striking..
Rarely, it will be a SOLO flight.

Will love to discuss with you more over it. I think I will learn more out of it. For your interest, check out below article from an IAF officer about medical aspect of long duration flights.
Regards,

http://medind.nic.in/iab/t05/i2/iabt05i2p41.pdf

Hi,

That is why I say pakistan men are inferior in strength to men of other nations--and you proved it with your post----.

If your flight time is for one hour---you will get tired in one hour----because that is how the mind sets its clock---.

When you fly for 5 hours the mind sets it clock to 5 hour service time and that is how the mental clock is set---.

You train and train and train for those 4 & 5 hour shifts and you get programmed to it.

The time of combat in itself does not change from across the border----but the loiter time does---.

Who said it would be circling for 5 hours dropping bombs----. Don't just wing it----. I gave you a reference of Ramzan war----you should have read about the tactics used in that air war and also looked at the previous war----.

The phantoms stayed in their air----they pounced on the prey when it went down for refuelling---.

A pilot in the air is better prepared to take on the enemy than the one who took off---. The one in flight has his adrenaline leveled off---and the anxiety level lower---the body is pacing itself to be ready for the conflict---there is better situational awareness so the reactions are not nervous.

And to your answer 'Rajni Kanth '---if that is what you got from my post---and that is the understanding you get from what I write---then you need to learn alot.

The example you are giving about the SU30 is what I am saying about the heavies for pakistan---. WTF do you think that after writing 17500 posts on the air force I don't know where or how far the SU 30's would be posted and how they would be deployed----and how to counter them.

It is about time that you kids need to learn that Paf has failed you and the nation in the last 30 years----that is the hard part that you kids don't want to admit----because it would shatter all your myths about the Paf that you have---and that experience is extremely painful.

But you kids will have to wake up one day and admit that the smell of the STENCH is the DECAY in the mindset of the PAF.

Now to the other gentleman---talking about great decision by the navy and air force----I forgot to mention Gen Collin Powell.

13 years ago Gen Collin Powell smaked the pakistani generals in his answer to a reporter----most of you were children at that time and many others did not understand what he said---.

A question was put to him---why is U S not forthright in selling equipment to pakistan even after the alliance---. He answered in a very political manner---" because the pakistanis keep changing their minds for what they want to get and each time they change their minds---we have to get new approvals from congress again "---.

I hope that from this answer you understand that the generals who were involved in procurement were basically not upto date in their knowledge of equipment and what they needed.

When you have idiots promoted to the general rank like General Mahmood----who thinks that if he puts his shoulder launched sam on every mountain top the job is done---that general staff has issues.

 

[nana41]

highly unlikely

With the exception of Eurofighter,there is no other aircraft which could possibly require Selex"s Aesa
radar.PAF should avail this opportunity and go for a joint venture to develop specific JF-17 version of Aesa radar,without England's dangerous participation.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

People who r arguing abt jh7b are also no better then the PAF's f16 hungry air marshalls. Firstly the best option if SUs cant come then it is to wait of 5th gen fighter and for that we just dont have the J31 option but that turkish fighter's option as well. Turkish had already showed their willingness to partner Pakistan in that project. And to be honest im not alt all a very big fan of J31 or jh7b. We must not put all eggs in one basket ie China. Its bad and over dependence on one country which is risky in International relations POV.

So as of now i suggest to only focus on JFT, no F16s, J10s etc if u cant get SUs. And wait/invest/join the Turkish fighter program because there is still no guarantee of J31 till 2020-2022. It may go beyond.

 

[MastanKhan]

People who r arguing abt jh7b are also no better then the PAF's f16 hungry air marshalls. Firstly the best option if SUs cant come then it is to wait of 5th gen fighter and for that we just dont have the J31 option but that turkish fighter's option as well. Turkish had already showed their willingness to partner Pakistan in that project. And to be honest im not alt all a very big fan of J31 or jh7b. We must not put all eggs in one basket ie China. Its bad and over dependence on one country which is risky in International relations POV.

So as of now i suggest to only focus on JFT, no F16s, J10s etc if u cant get SUs. And wait/invest/join the Turkish fighter program because there is still no guarantee of J31 till 2020-2022. It may go beyond.

Hi,

Speak directly---it is better that way---. JH7B is " A " aircraft----it is least expensive in its class and 80-85 % load capability of the F111. It is the only one possibly available without any strings---.

If the SU34 is available or the J16 is available----that would make the difference---.

You kids need to get Turkey out of your heads for awhile---. Its aviation industry is nowhere close to the chinese---. Chinese have already produced two samples----.

And in you kids emotional states of minds---never forget who the chinese enemy is---. All their defense spending is targeted towards that to finally compete and succeed in overcoming that ' obstacle '.

I mean to say----look at you kids thought process----one nation has given you carte blanche---and that equipment is worthless to you.

And the nation who has not made anything yet---you are running after it.

Since when did the turks steal got such superior technology to overtake the chinese stealth program and from where?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hi,

You are supposedly ex paf----correct me if I am wrong---. And if you think that way---off course the nations military is fckd up----.

So let me explain it for the 20 th time----how the deal should have been structured---.

5 billion dollar deal---delivery of first starts in 1 and 1 / 2 years and the 8 th after 11 to 12 years-----so basically---the 4th will be delivered around 5 to 6 years from now and the rest would take another 5 to 6 additional years.

The deal could have easily been split in half to buy 4 subs and add more funds to the deal after 5 years----to go for the rest.

For the other 2.5 billion----you could get 2 054's 2 F22's---2 sqdrns of JH7B---.

And this would have strengthened the naval fleet in parallel within the same 5 years time frame---.

Sir----knowing you and other military officers, generals and air force personal of pakistan military---I can speak with guarantee that you guys are absolute thoughtless and brainless in how to procure heavy weapons systems---.

All you guys can fall back is that " i would die for my country " and the people go gaga---and as they are equally illiterate in the matters of defense procurement---they start waving the flag.

So---as I stated in the other post----screw the 2nd strike---your brethrens have fckd up the deal so bad---that there would be no chance of survival from the first strike in the first place.

MK, you have the right to your opinion, no matter how childish or uncouth language that you use.
Which Ex Arm I am, or if I am serving, really doesn't matter.

I am privy to the details of the deal, so I will not comment. I think the competent officers of the PN are better equipped to assess their short term and long term requirements. Your analysis should be given credence over PN? There is a lot more to war than video games. Civilians will always have disdain or difference of opinion. Now some even become "analysts" and start telling the military how to do their job. To that I say, there is enough for you you to do, and do excellently, before trying to lend us a hand.

The 08 SSK deal and other decisions of PN are sound investments to defence the SLOC (sea lines of communications) of Pakistan. With time, you may appreciate what i say, or you may not. Only a strong sub-arm can allow interdicting an overt / offensive cvgn force. We don't expect you to understand.

However, this was a JF17 specific thread, discussing technology for JF17. Some of us were happy analysing that to its merit. I don't know why it is being diverted to naval issues. Kindly start a new thread, and we can continue discussing this there.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Fair enough, but then again from International relations POV relying for everything on one partner is dangerous, we have examples of North Korea and Warsaw pack states as well as Pakistan's own example.

Secondly one of the member in previous pages have already stated that Chinese r businessmen and in order to get the best product out of them we should have a better alternative, the recent example of that is the Mbt 3000 testing last yr and how chinese were reluctant to sell their top of line tanks like t99s etc but ever since pakistan announced and ''leaked'' the photos of t84s being tested here, they came up with t99s and now we r getting 300 of them (either t98/t99s)

Now even if u r going for another chinese then jh7b is pathetically old platform and would have to retired soon since it would have to face the likes of rafael, su30s, PAK FA, upgraded Mig29s (even in naval roles) and so on. So in my POV its best to milk chinese with turkish program, intimidate them or in yr language ''seduce them'' and im sure they will agree to offer J20 which was the actual project we were interested in from chinese rather then j31. Using the money on jh7b or 8 f16s as of now is futile and short sighted. Focus those funds on JFT project or solely on 5th gen program no matter how much jh7b is economical or 8f16s r good. Yr advocating that we use 1 billion on jh7b and 500 million on jft but im saying use all on jft or just save them for 5th gen.

Its very important to first locate yr opponent's weaknesses and exploit them to yr advantage, even if u r hell bend in putting all yr hopes in one partner then that should be in our terms and choice to extract the best out of him.

Thats the simple diplomatic and marketing strategy.

 

[Tank131]

@Umair Nawaz , The JH-7B is not an old platform, the original Jh-7 was inducted in 1992. You could argue that it is not future oriented (i.e. 4+ gen or 5th Gen and you would be correct, but there are many aspects of it that make sense it very relevant in PAFs current set up, but I think we need to address some misunderstandings with respect to what aircraft PAF can and should get.

1. F-16: The F-16 is a great, tried, and true platform which the PAF knows well and has the set up to maintain which is why they are so obsessed with it. As we see the Afghan theater winding down you now see the US congress playing back to 1990s when they were vitriolically against Pakistan. Even one member saying he doesnt want to give PAF the more F-16s because they "use it to bomb their own people" which is exactly what the US wanted Pakistan to do to fight internal militants. They will come up with any stupid excuse not to give you the F-16 or the revoke/inhibit your ability to operate it in the future which is probably why PAF spent as much on spares as it did (stock piling). Currently F-16s role is limited when it comes to strike in the sense that it can attack targets where the PAF has air superiority very well, but should it need stand off weapons, you have none except HARM. PAF F-16s are not cleared to fire the Harpoon in anti-shipping roles and PAF doesnt have JSOW or JASSM (although in 2006 JSOW was rumored but never confirmed). Additionally PAF needs to get the US clearance for EACH MISSION their F-16s undertake. Their are safeties in place to prevent the PAF from using them in any way they feel, which is a very dangerous prospect if you expect to defend your country from India (who is a closer ally to US now than Pakistan is).

2. J-11/J-16: There has been much talk about the China selling these to PAF if all else fails...that is NOT gonna happen. The Chinese still to some extent rely on Russian tech and still are learning aspects of aerospace engineering from Russia and are NOT going to sell these to Pakistan against Russia's will.

3. Su-35/34: These are POSSIBLE, but are expensive (though not as much as western options). There have been talks on the subject of acquiring these BUT nothing is confirmed. Should they be available then obviously they represent the best possible solution to the strike fighter problem that PAF has (even if many dont understand their is more to an Air force's need than fighters). However you may be forced to acquire Russian weapons only. That being said, IF they are available they are the best option.

4. FC-31: While it will be a great option, that option is not currently on the cards and wont be available for induction until 6-8yrs at the earliest. Additionally, it is a medium weight fighter which could carry out specific strike roles when need is to penetrate air defenses, but it is not a fighter that is going to take out large swaths of enemy territory the way Su-35 or JH-7B could. It simply doesnt carry enough internally to be useful in major strike situations. What it IS going to be better for is SEAD where it can penetrate enemy radar networks and take defenses out. In a deep strike or naval role it will have limited role due to limited legs. It will however be a great fighter to protect air over pakistan and provide protection to strike packages.

5. Turkish TAI TFX Project: Not as far along as FC-31, actually not even on the drawing board yet, just in conceptual design (still selecting between 3 designs). Additionally will carry a lot of US and European components. That puts you in the same boat regarding spares. Without British engines (EJ-200 Derivative) it wont fly and those could be embargoed to Pakistan at the drop of a hat. Now being that it is a derivative of EJ-200 could Turkey make them entirely in house and have the option to sell them despite British objections, theoretically but that is unlikely and these are still not planned for induction until 2025

In short, Get the Su-35 now if possible, JH-7B if not, and FC-31 in future to supplant F-16. That does put too much trust in China but unless Russia willing to deliver, there is not much option right now.