Selex ES radar & other technology on JF-17?

[Tank131]

Frankly we are always getting concerned about UK but with UK, $ talks. I havent really seen a time when UK has refused Pakistan though others can correct me. I think the embargo they had is on duel use tech which is also o n india and remains in place per their website. I dont think it will be a big deal to get it approved.

 

[araz]

There is a part due to be played by the private sector.

Private enterprise can easily partner with others abroad and come up with newer products at am amazing pace;
most of all private sector will always find a way to circumvent any sanctions.

That said there was a case of certain radar which PAF was interested in, originally from Check republic I believe ?
It could track stealth aircraft. That company was stopped by and purchased by uncle sam.
@Oscar can you please correct my memory.

Point being; there is a huge human and technological pool of resources in former Soviet states, Eastern europe and like we discussed last time South Africa.

Private sector will be encouraged to perform if the air force too changes it's attitude; once that happens we can see so much more than just Selex.

From memory of many moons ago the Pak defence industry in the private sector is pretty infantile and the nature of the order is so low that no one would be willing to invest millions on the hope of securing one order. We have established facilities at PAC which will most likely be utilized. Contracts may however be negotiated via other vendors just as Erieye has an office via an agency in Pakistan.
A

 

[Khafee]

Nice one, for the first time I am visiting a pure tech. thread without Indian trolls.

but here it comes .....

ایک اور بن بولائے باراتی کی بکواس برداشت کیجیئے
جسٹ سم کوریکشن ​

Sorry mera Urdu acha nai hay but thanks for the correction

 

[Audio]

That said there was a case of certain radar which PAF was interested in, originally from Check republic I believe ?
It could track stealth aircraft.

It is not a radar, it is a passive monitoring system that analyzes emissions in given air space and measures perturbations disrupting those emissions...

Pakistan is listed as an operator.

That company was stopped by and purchased by uncle sam.

No, sale to China was cancelled due to US pressure. There was a brief time where ownership of the company was US, most likely just to syphon IP, now it is back in Czech hands, selling systems.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

well selex is a good contractor, but remember selex is not all Italian and not all of it is in Italy. Selex makes a large amount of its radars in the UK, at Edinbrough Scotland, and we have say as its a defense product and needs our approval. dont fret the Italians wont need our say, as they can be built abroad, or be sold to Pakistan via the Italian government. so it would be a g2,g2,2 deal from the British to Italy to Pakistan.

as for the rd93ma will come with a reliability issues. as the increased thrust comes from the hot section of the engine and the ma varient is basically making the hot part of the engine hotter providing more thrust. a Russian engine engineer said: "it's like a filament bulb, add current it works, but add more current it will still work but it wont last as long"
i feel they wont go for the irst, but would be handy as the jf-17's role being a short range fighter would mean in a close encounter it can engage such targets. doing something like the tejas mk2 would be a good idea by stretching it 3ft would be a good idea and with some good engines. or re design the internals of it.

as i said and what your saying is that it still needs to be cheap to retain its nicheness of being 1/3 of comparable jets

Thunder is not a short range fighter. Its a Multi Role one. Air Refueling make its loiter time double then before. With Air Refueling, it can take off with more payload. The engineers can remove it in 45 minutes on field..
And what are the areas of interest for strike?
How much range is required exactly?
150 Thunders of various blocks will go to different Squadrons, each with different role. So 150 birds will be configure accordingly. Thats why my point is, the number of kits from Selex (if PAF go for it) are not that in number to disturb the financial equation. It will be for some specific squadrons requirements for specific roles.
You may be right about engine, I dont have much knowledge about that.

 

[Sinnerman108]

From memory of many moons ago the Pak defence industry in the private sector is pretty infantile and the nature of the order is so low that no one would be willing to invest millions on the hope of securing one order. We have established facilities at PAC which will most likely be utilized. Contracts may however be negotiated via other vendors just as Erieye has an office via an agency in Pakistan.
A

I did hint only on PAF changing attitudes because I wanted discussion to remain on Radar.
@Quwa can maybe open another thread and we can discuss this further.

It is not a radar, it is a passive monitoring system that analyzes emissions in given air space and measures perturbations disrupting those emissions...

Pakistan is listed as an operator.



No, sale to China was cancelled due to US pressure. There was a brief time where ownership of the company was US, most likely just to syphon IP, now it is back in Czech hands, selling systems.

you are better informed than I; nevertheless I still believe people to people contact at private sector level will yield more results.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Thunder is not a short range fighter. Its a Multi Role one. Air Refueling make its loiter time double then before. With Air Refueling, it can take off with more payload. The engineers can remove it in 45 minutes on field..
And what are the areas of interest for strike?
How much range is required exactly?
150 Thunders of various blocks will go to different Squadrons, each with different role. So 150 birds will be configure accordingly. Thats why my point is, the number of kits from Selex (if PAF go for it) are not that in number to disturb the financial equation. It will be for some specific squadrons requirements for specific roles.
You may be right about engine, I dont have much knowledge about that.

what? well what your saying is that the jf-17 is a multi role fighter? wow!!!!!!!! thanks for that i never knew that.
ok yes it is a short range multirole fighter regardless of what you say. its a fact. i forgot to mention its a multirole fighter so you can have that.

 

[Bratva]

While we are aware of a Selex ES AESA radar (model unknown) being considered for the JF-17, I wonder if there's potential for deeper cooperation. We know the PAF's ties with any Western vendor will always be on the tough side in terms of cost, supplier-reliability, IP concerns, etc, so we have to keep this in mind as a dampener in terms of expectations. That said, the PAF is managing this well, especially in recent years.

On to the idea.

Selex ES is one of the key vendors behind the Gripen NG, providing that fighter with its Raven ES-05 AESA radar, Skyward IRST, and BriteCloud DRFM decoy.

If you look closely, you'll notice that each of the above programs are distinct from Selex ES' work on the Typhoon; in other words, they're tailor made for the Gripen NG.

You will also notice from the PAF's own wording (from the Paris Air Show article) that while Selex was offering an AESA radar for JF-17, but it never said anything about the model, even though many of us kept referring to the Vixen-series.

For this reason I wonder if Selex is offering a tailor-made solution for the JF-17.

Now I am thinking, could it stop at the radar? Since the PAF openly voiced its interest in equipping the JF-17 with IRST, could Selex offer a specially designed solution on that front too? What about the BriteCloud DRFM-based decoy system (for radar-guided AAM) and Misysis DIRCM (for IR-guided AAM)?

Now asking Selex ES to support a complete sensor suite (AESA radar and IRST) and self-protection kit (based on BriteCloud and Misysis) for JF-17 is an expensive proposition, but it might not be bad.

By building an increasing proportion of the airframe in-house, Pakistan is able to - an extent - control costs in key areas. Unfortunately, it'll still import key materials from elsewhere, so the more it can generate at home (especially in terms of metals and composites) the better. But even if we factor in imports from China, it still isn't expensive, relatively speaking.

With a low-cost airframe and engine, the PAF has a lot of vertical room to build atop on JF-17, it could afford a comparatively pricey sensor and electronic warfare package. The end result could be a platform comparable to the Gripen NG, but at a markedly lower cost. If Selex could secure a PAF order, it'd be providing suites for 50-150 (based on the total 150-250 planned) fighters, possibly more if export orders from the likes of Egypt, Morocco, etc, are secured.

A side point, when you think about the wonder, you really do wonder why the PAF is even giving time to think about new F-16s, especially if it is to pay $80-100mn a unit.

Background on each of Selex ES' subsystems:

BriteCloud - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/britecloud-3

Misysis - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/miysis-dircm-3

Raven ES-05 - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/raven-1

Skyward IRST - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/skyward-1

@Horus, @Bratva, @MastanKhan, @Zarvan @waz @Khafee @araz @HRK @Blue Marlin ; your thoughts?

. We are hoping too much from PAF. Aesa from Selex is not a new phenomena. We've been hearing about Vixen-500 or Vixen-1000 radar since 2006. If my memory serves me right. British ambassador offered this radar back in 2007. But PAF remained mum on it and still obfuscating the whole E-Scan issue into whether they are going to go PESA or AESA route. We heard Pakistan going for IRST and PESA radar and additional hardpoints in block 2 but what happened is JF-17 down the road faced serious structural, software issues (MFD going blank mid flights, Missiles not leaving the rail launch after Pilot pressing the joystick button) and all the upgrades were put on hold and pushed back to Block-III. So what is the guarantee that PAF is finding it hard to mate AESA radar with JF-17 due to space and modifications require to install cooling system. As we all know there would be no structural changes



All the nations who are involved in fighter jet manufacturing lay out their definitive radar requirements well advance in 1 or 2 years e.g Rafael, EF, LCA, F-16, Chinese fighter jets but there is no news from PAF except we are looking into this and that.


What we are seeing is the repeat of PAF IFR fiasco

In the end, what was being propagated that JF-17 doesn't have enough space to host this kind of solution in it.

Then comes the reliability issues. JF-17 entire AAM, majority of AGM armory is chinese origin. How SELEX would give Pakistan go ahead to integrate Chinese missiles into its product ? If Pakistan can not get selex radar, then one might think Chinese AESA might be installed which in my humble opinion would be wishful thinking .Chinese AESA solution is not matured. Only in the last year, they started testing their AESA radars on J-10 B and J-16They have to overcome the reliability issues, Quality issues regarding the hardware and software controlling AESA. Pakistan has to go through the same painful road of heavy modification which it went with KLJ PD radar so it can fire BVR SD-10 A and majority of PGM's. It took KLJ-7 4-5 years to be reliable. Chinese AESA solution will be no exception

but there PESA solution has matured well enough. It has been perfected on J-10 B and can be minituarised in 2-3 year time frame.

Another thing to consider is cost of the AESA radar. PAF wants to equip its block II with the Block-III upgrades. You cant spend a large amount of money on AESA radar and then install other goodies on JF-17 because of the trade offs JF has to face for being a cost effective solution.

Btw Is Quwa a Canadian way of saying " کوا"?

قویٰ

put paysh on Kaaf and and read Small Yay with Khari zabar.

 

[Blue Marlin]

 

[Khafee]

. We are hoping too much from PAF. Aesa from Selex is not a new phenomena. We've been hearing about Vixen-500 or Vixen-1000 radar since 2006. If my memory serves me right. British ambassador offered this radar back in 2007. But PAF remained mum on it and still obfuscating the whole E-Scan issue into whether they are going to go PESA or AESA route. We heard Pakistan going for IRST and PESA radar and additional hardpoints in block 2 but what happened is JF-17 down the road faced serious structural, software issues (MFD going blank mid flights, Missiles not leaving the rail launch after Pilot pressing the joystick button) and all the upgrades were put on hold and pushed back to Block-III. So what is the guarantee that PAF is finding it hard to mate AESA radar with JF-17 due to space and modifications require to install cooling system. As we all know there would be no structural changes



All the nations who are involved in fighter jet manufacturing lay out their definitive radar requirements well advance in 1 or 2 years e.g Rafael, EF, LCA, F-16, Chinese fighter jets but there is no news from PAF except we are looking into this and that.


What we are seeing is the repeat of PAF IFR fiasco

In the end, what was being propagated that JF-17 doesn't have enough space to host this kind of solution in it.

Then comes the reliability issues. JF-17 entire AAM, majority of AGM armory is chinese origin. How SELEX would give Pakistan go ahead to integrate Chinese missiles into its product ? If Pakistan can not get selex radar, then one might think Chinese AESA might be installed which in my humble opinion would be wishful thinking .Chinese AESA solution is not matured. Only in the last year, they started testing their AESA radars on J-10 B and J-16They have to overcome the reliability issues, Quality issues regarding the hardware and software controlling AESA. Pakistan has to go through the same painful road of heavy modification which it went with KLJ PD radar so it can fire BVR SD-10 A and majority of PGM's. It took KLJ-7 4-5 years to be reliable. Chinese AESA solution will be no exception

but there PESA solution has matured well enough. It has been perfected on J-10 B and can be minituarised in 2-3 year time frame.

Another thing to consider is cost of the AESA radar. PAF wants to equip its block II with the Block-III upgrades. You cant spend a large amount of money on AESA radar and then install other goodies on JF-17 because of the trade offs JF has to face for being a cost effective solution.



قویٰ

put paysh on Kaaf and and read Small Yay with Khari zabar.

Sir,

1) Those were teething issues, sorted out, and THEN they proceeded to Blk2.

2) The image of the inflight refueling probe - is that a telescoping probe? Is it the one being installed in Blk 2 ?

Regards

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

We could look back 10 years from now and say if the paf change directions mid stride today---it would not miss a beat.

So---instead of going for the 8 F16's for 1.5 billion dollars---if they could split the funds between the J10 C and the Jf 17----1 billion +- for the J10C's and 500 ++ millions for the JF 17----the paf would be in a much better position tactically.

The minimum threshold of capability of the JF 17 would be raised from below the F16 BLK 52 to above it with the induction of aesa---irst---refuel probe---.

A billion dollars would fetch in a sqdrn of the J10C's fully equipped and operational---and 500 million ++ would upgrade the majority of the JF17 in operation and the coming JF17 for the next year or so.

So---in this case---the face of force projection totally changes the appearance and capabilities of the air force by at least a factor two if not three and that is a massive increase----just being achieved by dispersing funds in a very different and un-conventional manner.

Be it Italian or be it Chinese---for paf---both the systems will work fine. They will give the air force as a whole more power projection and that is what is needed under the current circumstances----and not 8 F 16's.

Now if the product is available and if any foreign buyer wants it----more power to them----but to tell the truth---the chinese package would not be any less potent.

We just need to remember one thing about the chinese fire control radar and other weapons---.

The chinese are preparing them to fight the american weapons---even though today---the chinese equipment is a few tiers below---in the next 2-5 years time---it would be very close to them or the same level---.

I mean to say the chinese are not going to put tier 2 equipment in the J20's or the J31's or the J10C's and live with forever---.

 

[Bratva]

Sir,

1) Those were teething issues, sorted out, and THEN they proceeded to Blk2.

2) The image of the inflight refueling probe - is that a telescoping probe? Is it the one being installed in Blk 2 ?

Regards

And it will face those teething issues once again once a new radar gets installed and all the armament has to be re-certified again on that radar.

2. It was considered for Block 1 back in 2008 but idea was shelved .

 

[Khafee]

And it will face those teething issues once again once a new radar gets installed and all the armament has to be re-certified again on that radar.

2. It was considered for Block 1 back in 2008 but idea was shelved .

Bro, just because teething is a difficult phase of life, would you rather not have teeth? Don't you think the pros, overwhelm the cons?

 

[Bratva]

Bro, just because teething is a difficult phase of life, would you rather not have teeth? Don't you think the pros, overwhelm the cons?

Those teething issues will delay the overall upgradation JF-17 fleet. By the time Block III comes, Block-1 would be going through some heavy maintenance during which such upgrades could be applied. Teething issues means, we have to slow down the rollout of AESA on previous blocks as well causing inevitable delays which PAF doesnot want. Hence The PESA solution that would integrate instantly and further delaying the AESA to 4th block.

 

[MastanKhan]

And now for the chinese equipment----it is not the equipment that is 'all' the problem---it is the 'integration' process that most of you guys did not understand.

7 years ago----when I stated that it would be 7---10 years to integrate the brand new platform---I intentionally put a lower number on it---because I knew that I would be lambasted by every member on this board---and that did happen.

The true number for a 4th + gen first time aircraft never having that capability before is more like 10---15 years----it is a MASSIVE LEAP in TECHNOLOGY from the previous gen aircraft----and weapons systems---because as you develop and make small changes in the aircraft---you are also making bigger changes in the fire control radar---all the other electronic gadgetry---and newer weapons systems.

You are also changing the flight training---and another biggest change you are bringing is that of the flight pattern---shoot and scoot---fire and run away.

Now compare yourself to nations with over a 100 years of manufacturing fighter aircraft and see how much time it is taking them to integrate their 4.5 gen and 5th gen aircraft---.

Nobody has it easy even with all their experiences---everyone of them is in the same boat---. They are finding out that more technology that you put in---the more time it takes to learn and operate.

Those teething issues will delay the overall upgradation JF-17 fleet. By the time Block III comes, Block-1 would be going through some heavy maintenance during which such upgrades could be applied. Teething issues means, we have to slow down the rollout of AESA on previous blocks as well causing inevitable delays which PAF doesnot want. Hence The PESA solution that would integrate instantly and further delaying the AESA to 4th block.

Hi,

You cannot have a PESA radar at this stage---that would be like going backwars----. These are two different operating systems---the sooner we get into the AESA---the better off we are.

We need to learn to take the punches and roll with them. The minimum capability of the current chinese aesa is superior to that of the pesa.

It is better to solve the teething problem with the aesa while learning to operate it rather than waiting for it to perfect over the time.

I cannot go back to windows 7 when there is windows 10 available now---even though windows 7 is a great program.