Selex ES radar & other technology on JF-17?

[Zain Malik]

When you were born, did you jump from the birthing table and start running?

Seems like that

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

May I ask why thunder didn't plan Aesa, Hobs, Hmds, irst in the block 1 ?
i am sure you could have got it from various sources..

Block-I was envisaged in the mid-1990s - i.e. based on the technologies available to Pakistan at the time. However, they had anticipated that technology will continue to evolve, hence they separated the electronics and munitions element from the development of the airframe. The electronics/munitions will be refreshed with each successive block.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

May I ask why thunder didn't plan Aesa, Hobs, Hmds, irst in the block 1 ?
i am sure you could have got it from various sources..

The aircraft it was replacing and the respective roles, A5 and F7, did not require Gen 4.5/5 avionics as such. As is, JF17 is a big leap for the squadrons its joining.

 

[WarFariX]

@araz the reason i said that Upgrade thunder to medium weight is because of these reasons :
1. PAF has always been inspired by F16 program and wants to somehow evolve thunder in the same way. F16 A/B were lightweight platforms just like currently thunders are. Later they evolved that jet to a medium weight. So there is a possibility that it might happen.
2. Paperwork is ready from some years for medium weight but lack of funds.
3. Turkish , chinese and italian sources for avionics always ready.
4. There may be a 1% possibility that this jet may eventually evolve to a completely new 5th gen multirole jet. not sure though

 

[MastanKhan]

Half a billion $ in research, the chance to start your own aviation industry, the chance to modify, induct new technologies from multiple vendors and test a plane. The chance to include weaponry from diverse providers and last but not the least a fighter you can call your own. These are very weighty arguments for JFT. Against that buy a fighter with lesser loitering time more engine problems and technologically complex therefore difficult to modify. No chance of induction of avionics from multiple providers and forever dependant on China for supplies and weapons. I think I would go for JFT any day. There is a case for inducting J10 and perhaps a lot sooner but if it were "either / or" scenario I would go for JFT any time any where.
A

Hi,

And it would not be for tactical reasons but because of EGO.

A JF17 like aircraft is a need in times of peace. You can build it---play and toy around it to make something out of it---.

And that is the difference between you pakistanis and Israelis is---. They swallowed their pride and ego and decided to stay with a higher tier aircraft the F16---and you the pakistani is going to hang by the rope and die---but won't admit to his blunders---because being a pakistani---when you spit---you don't lick it---.

Jaan Chali jaiy par aakar Nah jaiy---.

The israelis decided to let the americans invest in the machine and they will come up with their own systems if need be or modify the existing to a higher tier---thus creating a win win situation for their air force and nation.

And why did it happen---because the israeli govt made that decision against all opposition from the air force---.

You would go for it because you are ILLITERATE in matters of war and weapons of war---.

The aircraft it was replacing and the respective roles, A5 and F7, did not require Gen 4.5/5 avionics as such. As is, JF17 is a big leap for the squadrons its joining.

Hi,

Really---a leap---really---. Are you fighting an air battle with yourself---or is there an enemy somewhere out there as well.

Indeed it is a leap in reference to the pieces of sh-it that you guys have been flying---but in relation to what the need is---it is a big FIZZLE so far---.

 

[abbasniazi]

Hi,

And it would not be for tactical reasons but because of EGO.

A JF17 like aircraft is a need in times of peace. You can build it---play and toy around it to make something out of it---.

And that is the difference between you pakistanis and Israelis is---. They swallowed their pride and ego and decided to stay with a higher tier aircraft the F16---and you the pakistani is going to hang by the rope and die---but won't admit to his blunders---because being a pakistani---when you spit---you don't lick it---.

Jaan Chali jaiy par aakar Nah jaiy---.

The israelis decided to let the americans invest in the machine and they will come up with their own systems if need be or modify the existing to a higher tier---thus creating a win win situation for their air force and nation.

And why did it happen---because the israeli govt made that decision against all opposition from the air force---.

You would go for it because you are ILLITERATE in matters of war and weapons of war---.




Hi,

Really---a leap---really---. Are you fighting an air battle with yourself---or is there an enemy somewhere out there as well.

Indeed it is a leap in reference to the pieces of sh-it that you guys have been flying---but in relation to what the need is---it is a big FIZZLE so far---.

I completely agree to what u said Sir and i believe in that from the very beginning, JF17 is a good platform but atleast 20 years late in comparrison to present technologies, however, it has its own positives, we shouldn't consider it as a project for a main stay figter for PAF, rather, we should take it as a project to provide base for establishing industrial base, absorption of sensitive technologies, training of engineers and scientists etc. The way forward is an of the shelf purchase of four squarderns of high tech aircraft as a stop gap and initiating JVs with atleast two different partners, one from east and one from west...

 

[monitor]

Hi,

And it would not be for tactical reasons but because of EGO.

A JF17 like aircraft is a need in times of peace. You can build it---play and toy around it to make something out of it---.

And that is the difference between you pakistanis and Israelis is---. They swallowed their pride and ego and decided to stay with a higher tier aircraft the F16---and you the pakistani is going to hang by the rope and die---but won't admit to his blunders---because being a pakistani---when you spit---you don't lick it---.

Jaan Chali jaiy par aakar Nah jaiy---.

The israelis decided to let the americans invest in the machine and they will come up with their own systems if need be or modify the existing to a higher tier---thus creating a win win situation for their air force and nation.

And why did it happen---because the israeli govt made that decision against all opposition from the air force---.

You would go for it because you are ILLITERATE in matters of war and weapons of war---.




Hi,

Really---a leap---really---. Are you fighting an air battle with yourself---or is there an enemy somewhere out there as well.

Indeed it is a leap in reference to the pieces of sh-it that you guys have been flying---but in relation to what the need is---it is a big FIZZLE so far---.

You're right every months gone it's seems to me thunder becoming a blunder for Pakistan. Your enemy is getting best fighter from everywhere where Pakistan's option are getting to one, made in China only.

 

[Sinnerman108]

You're right every months gone it's seems to me thunder becoming a blunder for Pakistan. Your enemy is getting best fighter from everywhere where Pakistan's option are getting to one, made in China only.

that is the matter,

NO ONE is willing to sell us any thing, ( USA primarily ).

Because we allowed China to check mate them through the land route to Arabian Sea.

 

[DCS]

You're right every months gone it's seems to me thunder becoming a blunder for Pakistan. Your enemy is getting best fighter from everywhere where Pakistan's option are getting to one, made in China only.

JF-17 is a victim of unrealistic expectations. Procuring the thunder was not a mistake, and never will be. The JF-17 was always meant to be a light fighter to replace the legacy fleet. The blame should fall on those who led Pakistan to become overly reliant on the US, a transactional relationship that was not to stand the test of time. The JF-17 did everything it was asked to do, how could it be blamed for the decline of the PAF's qualitative edge vis-a-vis India?

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

And it would not be for tactical reasons but because of EGO.

A JF17 like aircraft is a need in times of peace. You can build it---play and toy around it to make something out of it---.

And that is the difference between you pakistanis and Israelis is---. They swallowed their pride and ego and decided to stay with a higher tier aircraft the F16---and you the pakistani is going to hang by the rope and die---but won't admit to his blunders---because being a pakistani---when you spit---you don't lick it---.

Jaan Chali jaiy par aakar Nah jaiy---.

The israelis decided to let the americans invest in the machine and they will come up with their own systems if need be or modify the existing to a higher tier---thus creating a win win situation for their air force and nation.

And why did it happen---because the israeli govt made that decision against all opposition from the air force---.

You would go for it because you are ILLITERATE in matters of war and weapons of war---.




Hi,

Really---a leap---really---. Are you fighting an air battle with yourself---or is there an enemy somewhere out there as well.

Indeed it is a leap in reference to the pieces of sh-it that you guys have been flying---but in relation to what the need is---it is a big FIZZLE so far---.

The JF-17 is an excellent example of agile development. There is a concept called 'sushi slicing'. And the classical example that is given to explain it is this: imagine you want to make a F1 race car, but you have never made such a car, you can't buy such a car, and no one is willing to give you the car... so you are limited to building the car by yourself. There are two approaches you could take:

1. Try to build various components of the car, such as tyres, chassis, engine, etc. Unfortunately, when you try to integrate them, you are going to run into a lot of trouble. Experience shows that you would be going back and re-designing many components.

2. The second approach is (explained to us here in Australia by our scrum master) - bear with me on this one - to start with a bicycle. Take a deep breath, and let me explain. You have no prior manufacturing experience. This small project lets you get a quick turn around time, setup a rudimentary assembly line... basically start getting the basics down. You next proceed to a motorbike, then a car, and finally the race car.

The above example is EXTREME. We DON'T have to start with a bicycle. But thanks to our Chinese friends the JF-17 project has been managed beautifully well. Look at what we have got now: PAC and PEC. Just today I saw the video about PEC and it has been an eye opener. That is truly a world classic electronic capability. @DCS is exactly right when he says the JF-17 is what it was planned to be. And it was planned to be a stepping stone. Your concerns would be valid if we just developed Block 1 and then didn't do anything else. But we went on to Block 2. And now Block 3 is nearing completion. At the same time, news stories suggest we are looking to counter the Rafael in the short time, while the ACM has the vision for a 5+ gen fighter. You are essentially saying we should have gone for the current 4+ gen fighters back in 1995. In the real world, that just doesn't happen when a country is at the level where we were at back in 1995.

I wish we would have faith in our own abilities more. We are at a critical juncture where, if we do things right, we could wean ourselves away from extremely costly foreign arms for good. Insha Allah.

JF-17 is a victim of unrealistic expectations. Procuring the thunder was not a mistake, and never will be. The JF-17 was always meant to be a light fighter to replace the legacy fleet. The blame should fall on those who led Pakistan to become overly reliant on the US, a transactional relationship that was not to stand the test of time. The JF-17 did everything it was asked to do, how could it be blamed for the decline of the PAF's qualitative edge vis-a-vis India?

Agree whole-heartedly with you Sir!

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hi,

And it would not be for tactical reasons but because of EGO.

A JF17 like aircraft is a need in times of peace. You can build it---play and toy around it to make something out of it---.

And that is the difference between you pakistanis and Israelis is---. They swallowed their pride and ego and decided to stay with a higher tier aircraft the F16---and you the pakistani is going to hang by the rope and die---but won't admit to his blunders---because being a pakistani---when you spit---you don't lick it---.

Jaan Chali jaiy par aakar Nah jaiy---.

The israelis decided to let the americans invest in the machine and they will come up with their own systems if need be or modify the existing to a higher tier---thus creating a win win situation for their air force and nation.

And why did it happen---because the israeli govt made that decision against all opposition from the air force---.

You would go for it because you are ILLITERATE in matters of war and weapons of war---.




Hi,

Really---a leap---really---. Are you fighting an air battle with yourself---or is there an enemy somewhere out there as well.

Indeed it is a leap in reference to the pieces of sh-it that you guys have been flying---but in relation to what the need is---it is a big FIZZLE so far---.

Mr. MK, your messages continue to be broad stroke generalizations reflecting your extreme bias against PAF. For that, you continue to delegitmize any positive contribution that could come in your rambling conspiracy theories.

 

[GURU DUTT]

that is the matter,

NO ONE is willing to sell us any thing, ( USA primarily ).

Because we allowed China to check mate them through the land route to Arabian Sea.

not just that you gave China acsess to there cutting edge tech which you never had courage to own but western nations know it and now dont trust your nation and have found a better alternative

 

[CHI RULES]

Hi,

And it would not be for tactical reasons but because of EGO.

A JF17 like aircraft is a need in times of peace. You can build it---play and toy around it to make something out of it---.

And that is the difference between you pakistanis and Israelis is---. They swallowed their pride and ego and decided to stay with a higher tier aircraft the F16---and you the pakistani is going to hang by the rope and die---but won't admit to his blunders---because being a pakistani---when you spit---you don't lick it---.

Jaan Chali jaiy par aakar Nah jaiy---.

The israelis decided to let the americans invest in the machine and they will come up with their own systems if need be or modify the existing to a higher tier---thus creating a win win situation for their air force and nation.

And why did it happen---because the israeli govt made that decision against all opposition from the air force---.

You would go for it because you are ILLITERATE in matters of war and weapons of war---.




Hi,

Really---a leap---really---. Are you fighting an air battle with yourself---or is there an enemy somewhere out there as well.

Indeed it is a leap in reference to the pieces of sh-it that you guys have been flying---but in relation to what the need is---it is a big FIZZLE so far---.

Dear Sir you are comparing Israel with Pak which is ridiculous, u should have more info being a Us citizen, Israel has become practically father of USA as every institution of USA is controlled/managed by Jews.

On the other hand Pak has no such illegitimate child to finance it's plans believe me or not I have personally people who at limited level have developed such techs in Pakistan in few bugs which are produced by spending Millions in developed world.

PAF is going to build a aviation city which will have all sort of institutions from educational to R&D based, complete supply chain. We could have got better gadgets on JF17 if our so called allies are honest with us. But unfortunately apart from China none is in same league. Even so called brotherly Muslim countries are also trying to push Pak for their own sectarian motives. We have to rely on our limited resources which are just like a small blanket being pushed by a tall person to cover entire body.

PAF has to get resources from Govt no matter how many modern jets are flown by our chief in the end we will get only that for which we can pay.

Block-I was envisaged in the mid-1990s - i.e. based on the technologies available to Pakistan at the time. However, they had anticipated that technology will continue to evolve, hence they separated the electronics and munitions element from the development of the airframe. The electronics/munitions will be refreshed with each successive block.

Sir, which gadgets you are expecting in block 3

 

[MastanKhan]

The JF-17 is an excellent example of agile development. There is a concept called 'sushi slicing'. And the classical example that is given to explain it is this: imagine you want to make a F1 race car, but you have never made such a car, you can't buy such a car, and no one is willing to give you the car... so you are limited to building the car by yourself. There are two approaches you could take:

1. Try to build various components of the car, such as tyres, chassis, engine, etc. Unfortunately, when you try to integrate them, you are going to run into a lot of trouble. Experience shows that you would be going back and re-designing many components.

2. The second approach is (explained to us here in Australia by our scrum master) - bear with me on this one - to start with a bicycle. Take a deep breath, and let me explain. You have no prior manufacturing experience. This small project lets you get a quick turn around time, setup a rudimentary assembly line... basically start getting the basics down. You next proceed to a motorbike, then a car, and finally the race car.

The above example is EXTREME. We DON'T have to start with a bicycle. But thanks to our Chinese friends the JF-17 project has been managed beautifully well. Look at what we have got now: PAC and PEC. Just today I saw the video about PEC and it has been an eye opener. That is truly a world classic electronic capability. @DCS is exactly right when he says the JF-17 is what it was planned to be. And it was planned to be a stepping stone. Your concerns would be valid if we just developed Block 1 and then didn't do anything else. But we went on to Block 2. And now Block 3 is nearing completion. At the same time, news stories suggest we are looking to counter the Rafael in the short time, while the ACM has the vision for a 5+ gen fighter. You are essentially saying we should have gone for the current 4+ gen fighters back in 1995. In the real world, that just doesn't happen when a country is at the level where we were at back in 1995.

I wish we would have faith in our own abilities more. We are at a critical juncture where, if we do things right, we could wean ourselves away from extremely costly foreign arms for good. Insha Allah.



Agree whole-heartedly with you Sir!

Hi,

Thank you very much for your post---.

For the very reasons that you mentioned---this was not a suitable endeavor for Paf----. We have been constantly AT WAR with our neighbor since 1965.

We cannopt afford to test and build and go thru the growing pains of a new product---. Just like Israel---realized it---and stopped in mid stride---regarding its Lavi project.

To procure the right aircraft---it was to be done in a timely manner---the moment the sanctions came off---.

My issues are with the DRAMA that the pakistan air force generals created and a lackadaisical attitude for a must need.

The planning that we have to do---has to be relative---has to be in relation to what the enemy has---.

I mean to say that the JF17 is just not built to screw ourselves---we have to copulate with the enemy one of these days---.

Now if the Paf had gone for at least 24 Rafales in 2002-03 and gottent he EW package in a timely manner---you could say---that is the best potent package available.

 

[MastanKhan]

Dear Sir you are comparing Israel with Pak which is ridiculous, u should have more info being a Us citizen, Israel has become practically father of USA as every institution of USA is controlled/managed by Jews.

On the other hand Pak has no such illegitimate child to finance it's plans believe me or not I have personally people who at limited level have developed such techs in Pakistan in few bugs which are produced by spending Millions in developed world.

PAF is going to build a aviation city which will have all sort of institutions from educational to R&D based, complete supply chain. We could have got better gadgets on JF17 if our so called allies are honest with us. But unfortunately apart from China none is in same league. Even so called brotherly Muslim countries are also trying to push Pak for their own sectarian motives. We have to rely on our limited resources which are just like a small blanket being pushed by a tall person to cover entire body.

PAF has to get resources from Govt no matter how many modern jets are flown by our chief in the end we will get only that for which we can pay.



Sir, which gadgets you are expecting in block 3

Hi,

Nothing stopped pakistan from playing the Israeli " HAND " except for your ' own ' deceitful mindset.

You had the U S on a platter---by its ballz in 2001---and you fools cut off your own nose to spite your face