Selex ES radar & other technology on JF-17?

[Khafee]

That's my rationale as well. With a JF-17 equipped with AESA, IRST and BriteCloud-like decoy/ECM, we wouldn't need to worry about a "hi/lo" mix, rather, it'd be an X/Y mix. The "X" would be the general use multi-role fighter fully capable of doing everything we need, and "Y" would be a smaller number of specialist aircraft for specific roles. In the latter I can see the FC-31 emerging, especially in terms of being a strike and maritime patrol platform.

PAF is already doing it with the F-16 fleet.

You have the high end Blk52's, then the MLU, and then the ex-Jordanians. So something like this could very well work.

 

[RAMPAGE]

@Bratva @Dazzler

Small enough to fit?

 

[Blue Marlin]

It can always be insured, via local MRO that Selex's products remain sanction free. It's not that big a deal.

As to the countermeasures, you can never have too little of it.

IRST - From what I know, this could have changed by now, the Su series IRST has a range of +/- 100kms. The Western ones 170km+/- Chinese............?

Raven & Vixen - Vixen was the predessor to the Raven. Unless Gripen has the IP rights to the Raven, and subject to Export policies, it can be exported.

RD-93 - There is already unconfirmed news of a 22k lb thrust engine. Never say never, people from across the border were going blue in the face, saying Russia would not allow it, but then what happened? So lets see if the Russian come up with a better deal.

in the end it does come down to cost. if cost were not a problem then go for a high tech platform with the fancies on it.
i dont think the irst's have a range of 70+ km. remember they are used for wvraam's which are close range. irst dont give a radar signal so the opponent does not know his opponent has a missile lock on him via the irst. if they can go beyond 100km then why have radars for long range engagements where irst's are better. i know chinese kit is not good. but look at how fast they are growing. our analyists are scratching their heads on how they developed 5th gen fighters (j20) so fast.
i was told they are looking at the vixen 1000e. my sources are quiet reliable and i have used them before on other assignments before. the raven is certainly more capable and one they will be certainly looking at. who knows. but as far as i know the vixen 1000e is easier to buy as opposed to the raven series.
the block 3 specs will be frozen this year in late q3 or later as the dual seater is making is debut then too

 

[Quwa]

in the end it does come down to cost. if cost were not a problem then go for a high tech platform with the fancies on it.
i dont think the irst's have a range of 70+ km. remember they are used for wvraam's which are close range. irst dont give a radar signal so the opponent does not know his opponent has a missile lock on him via the irst. if they can go beyond 100km then why have radars for long range engagements where irst's are better. i know chinese kit is not good. but look at how fast they are growing. our analyists are scratching their heads on how they developed 5th gen fighters (j20) so fast.
i was told they are looking at the vixen 1000e. my sources are quiet reliable and i have used them before on other assignments before. the raven is certainly more capable and one they will be certainly looking at. who knows. but as far as i know the vixen 1000e is easier to buy as opposed to the raven series.
the block 3 specs will be frozen this year in late q3 or later as the dual seater is making is debut then too

But could Selex could offer a tailored made solution for JF-17? I recall Raven being a specific system designed for Gripen NG, if given a set of requirements by PAF, could a unique radar be offered for JF-17?

 

[Khafee]

in the end it does come down to cost. if cost were not a problem then go for a high tech platform with the fancies on it.
i dont think the irst's have a range of 70+ km. remember they are used for wvraam's which are close range. irst dont give a radar signal so the opponent does not know his opponent has a missile lock on him via the irst. if they can go beyond 100km then why have radars for long range engagements where irst's are better. i know chinese kit is not good. but look at how fast they are growing. our analyists are scratching their heads on how they developed 5th gen fighters (j20) so fast.
i was told they are looking at the vixen 1000e. my sources are quiet reliable and i have used them before on other assignments before. the raven is certainly more capable and one they will be certainly looking at. who knows. but as far as i know the vixen 1000e is easier to buy as opposed to the raven series.
the block 3 specs will be frozen this year in late q3 or later as the dual seater is making is debut then too

I can't reveal specifics, but when Boeing launched the IRST21 sensor, for the F-18, http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/InfraredSearchTrack.html, it was revealed that the IRST's range was greater than the APG-79. Now you tell me what is the range of the APG-79?

There is a reason why the Blk60 is considered a generation ahead than the rest of the vipers.

 

[Blue Marlin]

But could Selex could offer a tailored made solution for JF-17? I recall Raven being a specific system designed for Gripen NG, if given a set of requirements by PAF, could a unique radar be offered for JF-17?

if the price is right then possibly. how much has paf got? this is a good idea here, as they can use this aesa on other fighters(j31's).
but then if you want radar tech then turkey has gan based aesa radar tech which only a hand full of countries have.
but thats for 5th gen fighters so i will put that aside.

 

[MastanKhan]

While we are aware of a Selex ES AESA radar (model unknown) being considered for the JF-17, I wonder if there's potential for deeper cooperation. We know the PAF's ties with any Western vendor will always be on the tough side in terms of cost, supplier-reliability, IP concerns, etc, so we have to keep this in mind as a dampener in terms of expectations. That said, the PAF is managing this well, especially in recent years.

On to the idea.

Selex ES is one of the key vendors behind the Gripen NG, providing that fighter with its Raven ES-05 AESA radar, Skyward IRST, and BriteCloud DRFM decoy.

If you look closely, you'll notice that each of the above programs are distinct from Selex ES' work on the Typhoon; in other words, they're tailor made for the Gripen NG.

You will also notice from the PAF's own wording (from the Paris Air Show article) that while Selex was offering an AESA radar for JF-17, but it never said anything about the model, even though many of us kept referring to the Vixen-series.

For this reason I wonder if Selex is offering a tailor-made solution for the JF-17.

Now I am thinking, could it stop at the radar? Since the PAF openly voiced its interest in equipping the JF-17 with IRST, could Selex offer a specially designed solution on that front too? What about the BriteCloud DRFM-based decoy system (for radar-guided AAM) and Misysis DIRCM (for IR-guided AAM)?

Now asking Selex ES to support a complete sensor suite (AESA radar and IRST) and self-protection kit (based on BriteCloud and Misysis) for JF-17 is an expensive proposition, but it might not be bad.

By building an increasing proportion of the airframe in-house, Pakistan is able to - an extent - control costs in key areas. Unfortunately, it'll still import key materials from elsewhere, so the more it can generate at home (especially in terms of metals and composites) the better. But even if we factor in imports from China, it still isn't expensive, relatively speaking.

With a low-cost airframe and engine, the PAF has a lot of vertical room to build atop on JF-17, it could afford a comparatively pricey sensor and electronic warfare package. The end result could be a platform comparable to the Gripen NG, but at a markedly lower cost. If Selex could secure a PAF order, it'd be providing suites for 50-150 (based on the total 150-250 planned) fighters, possibly more if export orders from the likes of Egypt, Morocco, etc, are secured.

A side point, when you think about the wonder, you really do wonder why the PAF is even giving time to think about new F-16s, especially if it is to pay $80-100mn a unit.

Background on each of Selex ES' subsystems:

BriteCloud - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/britecloud-3

Misysis - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/miysis-dircm-3

Raven ES-05 - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/raven-1

Skyward IRST - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/skyward-1

@Horus, @Bratva, @MastanKhan, @Zarvan @waz @Khafee @araz @HRK @Blue Marlin ; your thoughts?

Hi,

Thanks for asking----. A new problem has arisen over the horizon--and that would be critical in all the key decisions being made in the future---.

The recent leak of news a couple od days ago a=regarding the British and the americans spying on israeli drones and F16----thru data link

Dale Brown---in one of his works of fiction---some 18 years ago I believe---wrote about a super computer in an awacs type of aircraft that could decode an incoming enemy BVR missile and make it go astray during its flight---means within seconds the supercomputer was able to break into the datalink guided missile-----or if it was a regualr missiles with with radar lock information provided from the radar---I don't remember what type.

But the thing is----what was imagined---has become a reality now.

If you get the idea from someone---plz give some credit.

 

[Khafee]

Hi,

Thanks for asking----. A new problem has arisen over the horizon--and that would be critical in all the key deicions being made in the future---.

The recent leak of news a couple od days ago a=regarding the British and the americans spying on israeli drones and F16----thru data link

Dale Brown---in one of his works of fiction---some 18 years ago I believe---wrote about a super computer in an awacs type of aircraft that could decode an incoming enemy BVR missile and make it go astray during its flight---means within seconds the supercomputer was able to break into the datalink guided missile-----or if it was a regualr missiles with with radar lock information provided from the radar---I don't remember what type.

But the thing is----what was imagined---has become a reality now.

If you get the idea from someone---plz give some credit.

Barri der kardi meherbaan aate aate. Good to see you

This is why a new mode is being considered for A2A missiles. Data silence. Once the missile is launched, no more data input. This would be besides the added capability of, Lock On AFTER Launch.

So basically a missile, based on input from the IRST, (Radar would be only on Receive mode), would be launched, with no data input . It's in the "user trial" phase

 

[Quwa]

if the price is right then possibly. how much has paf got? this is a good idea here, as they can use this aesa on other fighters(j31's).
but then if you want radar tech then turkey has gan based aesa radar tech which only a hand full of countries have.
but thats for 5th gen fighters so i will put that aside.

I think that's where a tailor made radar makes the most sense, i.e. cost. Sweden wanted a markedly superior system and they got Raven, and the PAF may want something that does the job well without failure. It is possible that the Vixen 1000 isn't necessary, that a lighter and less powerful custom solution could work. What the PAF basically needs is a radar that doesn't jam against quality EW and is capable of making use of its existing (and possible future) BVRAAM within a defensive context. It needs to be enough to make India think thrice before even sending the Rafale over the border.

 

[Blue Marlin]

I think that's where a tailor made radar makes the most sense, i.e. cost. Sweden wanted a markedly superior system and they got Raven, and the PAF may want something that does the job well without failure. It is possible that the Vixen 1000 isn't necessary, that a lighter and less powerful custom solution could work. What the PAF basically needs is a radar that doesn't jam against quality EW and is capable of making use of its existing (and possible future) BVRAAM within a defensive context. It needs to be enough to make India think thrice before even sending the Rafale over the border.

meh..... whatever they go for its in their best interest. the rafales are likely to be based up north where it borders china and pakistan.

Badi der kardi meherbaan aate aate. Good to see you

This is why a new mode is being considered for A2A missiles. Data silence. Once the missile is launched, no more data input. This would be besides the added capability of, Lock On AFTER Launch.

So basically a missile, based on input from the IRST, (Radar would be only on Receive mode), would be launched, with no data input . It's in the "user trial" phase

dont you mean fire and forget

I can't reveal specifics, but when Boeing launched the IRST21 sensor, for the F-18, http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/InfraredSearchTrack.html, it was revealed that the IRST's range was greater than the APG-79. Now you tell me what is the range of the APG-79?

There is a reason why the Blk60 is considered a generation ahead than the rest of the vipers.

the apg-79 are on the super hornets/growlers not the vipers? your vipers have apg-80's witha 350+km range and a 120+ degree azimuth. i dont think irst's have a range as high as 70 km, regardless of what you say, sorry. but if what you say is true then missiles would be build around this idea. and the only thing i can think of that remotly meets this. is the mica missile from france which is in the 70 km-ish range i specified.

 

[Khafee]

meh..... whatever they go for its in their best interest. the rafales are likely to be based up north where it borders china and pakistan.


dont you mean fire and forget


the apg-79 are on the super hornets/growlers not the vipers? your vipers have apg-80's witha 350+km range and a 120+ degree azimuth. i dont think irst's have a range as high as 70 km, regardless of what you say, sorry. but if what you say is true then missiles would be build around this idea. and the only thing i can think of that remotly meets this. is the mica missile from france which is in the 70 km-ish range i specified.

Sometimes talking to you becomes very painful. Do you do this on purpose?

1) The APG-80 is better than the APG-79, that's why the comment on the Vipers.

2) Boeing - when they issued the statement about the IRST21 they specifically referred to the APG-79 range.

3) Fire & Forget mode, still maintains data link, with no input from the radar of the host aircraft after launch. The missile seeker takes over, and is still capable of receiving inputs from the host aircraft.

4) IRST's - Western ones have a range < 70km. Missiles - No, for now.

5) Not here to make a believer out of you. Feel free to believe whatever you want.

Reagrds

 

[MastanKhan]

Barri der kardi meherbaan aate aate. Good to see you

This is why a new mode is being considered for A2A missiles. Data silence. Once the missile is launched, no more data input. This would be besides the added capability of, Lock On AFTER Launch.

So basically a missile, based on input from the IRST, (Radar would be only on Receive mode), would be launched, with no data input . It's in the "user trial" phase

Hi,

What I would be really interested in is an actual visual capability of the missile in the target search mode----that it has a high power small camera in its seeker head that has a memory bank of air craft pictures---and it can visualize its track in search and target lock on mode---which would make stealth meaningless.

What do you think----?

 

[Khafee]

Hi,

What I would be really interested in is an actual visual capability of the missile in the target search mode----that it has a high power small camera in its seeker head that has a memory bank of air craft pictures---and it can visualize its track in search and target lock on mode---which would make stealth meaningless.

What do you think----?

It has something more simpler. Calculating the size of the infrared image it knows if it's a decoy / chaff / flare, or an aircraft size object.

The safest way to avoid a missile is to either NOT be in a confrontation, or to bail out.

 

[Tank131]

I think the JF-17 was mean to be a bargain, not simply low cost. Low cost make a fixed rate which means a fixed set of capabilities. JF-17 was not meant simply to be low cost, but a bargain (meaning lower cost vs comparable aircraft). Block 1 was a bargain compared to F-16 block 30s, Block 2 compared well to block 40s, Block 3 should be comparable to Block 60s, Rafale, Gripen NG but at a bargain price. This means it needs a top caliber electronics suite and a plethora of options. Flexibility is key. For now PAF is satified with RD-93, BUT if an export customer wants EJ-200 that should be optioned for them. The ECM and ECCM should be comparable to western fighters. The Radar needs to be able to handle situations where it is pitted against MKI and Rafale, not only cause problems in numbers but also stand a reasonable chance of defeating them. Let us face it. There will be no new F-16, No Typhoon and it is unlikely that there will be Su-35 and definitely not in enough numbers to hold off the IAF for a number of weeks. JF-17 Block 1 and 2 are enough to handle Mig-27, Mig-29, M2K, and Jaguar. But the MKI and Rafale will give it major trouble. Even with 85 F-16s you wont be able to hold back that line. JF-17 needs to elevate the game to the point where the Mig-29 and M2K arent legitimate threats, and while it may not be as good as a MKI (upgraded) or Rafale, its close enough that will scare the crap out of IAF pilots.

Afterall, the F/A-18E/F is not as good as the F-22, but F/A-18G has scored kills on F-22 by jamming the crap out of it. If PAF spends $40-50million per JF-17 Block 3 in this set up it is well worth it. Considering that F-16 block 50/52 is around that price and the JF-17Block 3 in that set up would be vastly superior electronically to it makes me feel that this is the direction. You can still have more low budget options with the block 2 still on tap if you want higher numbers, but no expense spared for the electronics of block 3 should be the motto.

 

[MastanKhan]

That's my rationale as well. With a JF-17 equipped with AESA, IRST and BriteCloud-like decoy/ECM, we wouldn't need to worry about a "hi/lo" mix, rather, it'd be an X/Y mix. The "X" would be the general use multi-role fighter fully capable of doing everything we need, and "Y" would be a smaller number of specialist aircraft for specific roles. In the latter I can see the FC-31 emerging, especially in terms of being a strike and maritime patrol platform.

@Khafee @Quwa @Irfan Baloch ,

Bottomline is that it all comes down to is the strength of the electronics package in whatever form shape or size it is in---the package that is in the aircraft as well as on the missile itself that is hunting the prey.

The aircraft will become secondary---here is how the weapons will be graded---smart---smarter---smartest---hyper smart---hyper hyper smart----super hyper smart.

Today's missiles are in between the range of smart---going towards smarter.

@Khafee ---- there are always simpler solutions to serious tactical problems---as the technology advances---so does the propensity in the humans---advances to counter them.

Again here is what I personally feel---you know these smart bombs that have a camera lens in their nose that the technician see thru the eye---a similar technology would be developed in the BVR missiles to hunt the stealth aircraft at longer ranges--and also wvr to lock on even at shorter ranges.

The thing is that stealth cannot hide from a camera lens---that is what my thinking is.

@Quwa,

Italian aesa radar---electronics package along with the south african missile system gives the buyer a choice of weapons and equipment that they might want.

The total chinese weapons package in itself is extremely deadly as well.