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Secularists should 'mend ways or leave country', says PTI lawmaker

You need to get your dictionary right and choice of words for application corrected.

As for free-will, story of Adam (a) should be sufficient. Commanded not to do something yet did. That is free-will!

And there is no absolute free-thinking .... we are not even allowed full use of our brain power! Not even a quarter!
 
A very good analysis of the of the tilt towards religious extremism. The article correctly infers that that even though 95% of the laws in Pakistan are compatible with Islam; still the hardliners develop separate and anti-constitutional discourse. In my opinion Mr Ali Mohammed Khan and his supporters represent this hard line mind-set.


A dangerous trajectory

MUHAMMAD AMIR RANA
PUBLISHED ABOUT 17 HOURS AGO
58b1e3febde62.jpg

The writer is a security analyst.


A POSITIVE gesture or statement changes little if not supported with affirmatory, concerted action. The prime minister’s participation in the Hindu festival of Holi reflects his approach towards non-Muslim communities in Pakistan. His statement that the country came into being to stop religious confrontation was widely appreciated.

A week before his Holi speech in Karachi, the prime minister addressed a ceremony at the Jamia Naeemia, Lahore, where he stressed upon religious scholars’ need to develop counter-narratives against the terrorists’ ideology. Apparently, these statements are not contradictory, except that one was delivered in Karachi and the other in Lahore.

Nevertheless, contradictions certainly exist in the people’s thinking patterns and attitudes as well as in state actions. During the premier’s speech in Lahore, slogans were raised in favour of Mumtaz Qadri — the executed murderer of former Punjab governor Salmaan Taseer. Nor could his Karachi speech ensure the smooth registration of non-Muslims during the census process; the media has reported some complaints regarding that.

Though more evidence is needed for a definitive conclusion, most analysts agree that a dangerous level of extremism has become the new normal in society, which the country’s power elites have also accepted as a baseline of societal tolerance.

Most analysts agree that a heightened level of extremism has become the new normal in society.
The power elites are unable to comprehend the idea that they can take any action without the help of the religious actors. They see religious actors as the part of the problem as well as the solution. Why would the religious elites help the state against narratives that they have nurtured, in collaboration with the state, and that have now become a source of their strength, and to some extent, survival? After the prime minister’s speech in Lahore, many religious scholars came up with the counterargument that it was the state that created militant actors to protect certain interests. But they will never mention that the state facilitated the religious clergy and encouraged religious institutionalisation in the country that bred all religious actors, including the violent ones.

Religious institutionalisation was neither moderate nor intellectual in its discourse, nor was it compatible with societal changes. It has produced political capital for religious parties, maximised their economic advantages and developed a strand of religiosity that has nothing to do with morality and social norms. The religious elites will not respond to the challenges state and society are facing. As a result, radical narratives are strengthened, and constitutional, legal, and educational issues are becoming more and more complex.

The sociopolitical elites have a very simplistic view of the problem, but the context cannot be understood without a better understanding of the relationship between the religious actors, and the state and its institutions. A nexus between religious actors and state institutions monopolises the public discourse on morality, apostasy, and citizenship. If a few in the government — including the prime minister — have a different view, they cannot break this relationship merely through issuing rosy statements.

Growing religiosity — which came into being as a direct consequence of this nexus between religious actors and the state — has become quite dynamic and nurtures only those narratives that are supportive of the interests of the religio-political elites. For example, many rational religious scholars, including one former head of the Council of Islamic Ideology, are convinced that 95 per cent of the laws in Pakistan are compatible with Islam. A judgement of the Federal Shariat Court had endorsed many legal statutes in Pakistan as being along the lines of Islam. But those at the helm of religious politics demand more Islamisation or interpretation of Islam, and implementation according to their points of view. The hardliners among them develop separate and anti-constitutional discourse and believe the current system is the major hurdle to the complete enforcement of an Islamic system. The violent actors, not being satisfied, took up arms against the state. The whole religious discourse in Pakistan is sectarian in its essence and shapes a hate discourse in society.

The sort of religiosity that has little trust in legal and constitutional accords as well as non-religious morals also has lower interest in the intellectual advancement of society; it always tends to assert itself through its own expressions. It triggers a race over resources and power between different religious actors and communities that exploits the sentiments of the masses. Society is witnessing the transformation of another religious community, which was previously considered the antidote to extremism. The neo-religious awakening may come with more mob-oriented aggressive expressions.

Voices of reasons can be found among the religious community in Pakistan, but the power elites do not have connectivity with moderate religious scholars in society. Ultimately, the state engages the same religious elite that has stakes in the hate business. A law expert and member of the prime minister’s legal team, Zafarullah Khan, has written at length about a new narrative in his book, Islam in the Contemporary World. He calls for a fresh look at the religious construct in Pakistan. However, his intellect is not reflected in government policies. Few other such experts present a case that a legal framework can help nurture new narratives. A prominent international legal expert believes that the Muslim world still romanticises the pre-1945 world order, when force was exercised to annex territories in the name of common bonds, and when transnational ideals were upheld. Those radicals who do not accept the Constitution fall into the category of “ideological alien enemies”.

The discourse that started with the narrative of good and bad militants has reached a level of good and bad Muslims. The Muslims deemed modern in their outlook and thinking may not consider themselves part of the majority in the country. An intellectual minority has emerged in the society, which is as insecure as the marginalised religious and social communities in Pakistan.

The prime minister thinks his occasional speeches will change the situation and develop new narratives. The fact that his own party includes a range of far-right politicians contradicts his statements. In the absence of any action and policy direction, his speeches do not have any worth more than electoral statements. After all, only a few months are left in the political campaign for the next general elections.

The writer is a security analyst.

Published in Dawn, March 26th, 2017
https://www.dawn.com/news/1322901/a-dangerous-trajectory
 
Your whole debate rode on the mistranslation which led to the debate on definition now. Even then, not a single verse that points against the use of free-thinking to explore, reason, reflect and understand; and even beyond.

I just did on my previous posts with the verses provided in the crystal clear meaning. Not only that, i even posted the verse that defy the purpose of apostasy laws which you even liked the post suggests you read the post. And examples of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to Companions of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)s' lifestyles which renders Blasphemy laws pointless and un-Islamic in last few pages ago.

Holy Quran has been consistent with encouraging people to use brain [akal] for knowledge. Whereas your debate is riding on the definition that tends to vary depending on how you use the context to apply. You are playing with the words of GOD dangerously close to the edge.

Quote Ayats that allow 'freethinking' as the word of your choice?

You've not provided a single EXACT reference to that word, whereas I have. And now you are bringing in Sunnah!

:cuckoo:

A very good analysis of the of the tilt towards religious extremism. The article correctly infers that that even though 95% of the laws in Pakistan are compatible with Islam; still the hardliners develop separate and anti-constitutional discourse. In my opinion Mr Ali Mohammed Khan and his supporters represent this hard line mind-set.

What about those on the opposite of religious extremists, the Liberals and Seculars, who are actually feeding the religious extremism through their extremist views and opinions?

Oh, you think those lot are totally fine in your books.

Carry on.
 
And tell me one thing that Science has proven wrong that is in The Quran? Maybe you need to read "The Bible, The Quran and Science" by Bucaille Maurice

"In 1976 Bucaille published his book, The Bible, The Qur'an and Science which argued that the Quran contains no statements contradicting established scientific facts.[4] Bucaille argued that the Quran is in agreement with scientific facts, while the Bible is not. He states that in Islam, science and religion have always been "twin sisters" (vii). According to Bucaille, there are monumental errors of science in the Bible and not a single error in the Quran. Bucaille's belief is that the Quran's descriptions of natural phenomena make it compatible with modern science. Bucaille concludes that the Quran is the Word of God. Bucaille argues that some of the most celebrated scientific discoveries in the 20th century, were described in detail and accuracy. Bucaille gives examples of astronomy, embryology, and multiple other subjects that had major advances in the 20th century."
I often defend the Quran because it's so close to science (science being a product of freethinking) and yet here you are arguing that it's wrong to practice freethinking. You contradict yourself.
BTW, what faith are you?
I never asked you.
You seem to have some serious grievances against Muslims!
No I don't, you just have a problem with me and assume I hate Muslims
I do not hate you, no reason to.
You say that but you will call me an atheist and I will burn in hell if I ever set foot in your country, even now you call me immoral. You've run out of arguments and put yourself in a corner, and now trying to play the indifference card.
 
You say that but you will call me an atheist and I will burn in hell if I ever set foot in your country, even now you call me immoral.

You think you can be publicly vocal anti-semitic in USA and Europe? If you can, take a loudspeaker out and try!
 
Quote Ayats that allow 'freethinking' as the word of your choice?

You've not provided a single EXACT reference to that word, whereas I have. And now you are bringing in Sunnah!

:cuckoo:

That was the verse from Holy Quran. Most of the verses were provided from Holy Quran, and then backed it up with Authentic hadiths as well considering your pro-stances on political ideology that derives from weak hadiths mostly.

I have done my best to explain the basic concept of free-thinking as i could. The rest is up to GOD.
 
That was the verse from Holy Quran. Most of the verses were provided from Holy Quran, and then backed it up with Authentic hadiths as well considering your pro-stances on political ideology that derives from weak hadiths mostly.

I have done my best to explain the basic concept of free-thinking as i could. The rest is up to GOD.

All the religious demagoguery is just a front for the failure to explain just how false the logic that "Pakistan was made in the name of Islam, therefore the State must enforce it" is in reality. Pakistan was made to give Muslims of the subcontinent freedom from the perceived tyranny of a Hindu majority, not to become a theocratic State, with mandatory enforcement of any particular religion by the State itself. But the Objectives Resolution was passed to destroy this noble raison d'etre and replace it with the very seeds of its own destruction which are bearing their bitter fruit now.

The irony of the Muslims in Pakistan doing to their minorities and themselves what they feared what would happen the minorities and them in a United India is surely lost on the demagogues.
 
Use of anti-religion terminologies/philosophies is wrong. More so when two Muslims are discussing Islam!

The issue is that the real Ulema (Ulema in Arabic are scientists, experts in their fields, scholars) are mute. And this is due to lack of proper education in Muslim world inc Pakistan where the present so called Ulemas have taken over this space. Keeping nations illiterate is also by design.

Until that space is clawed back, we will continue to have issues. And this claw back needs to be well planned and executed.

However the rebellion in name of liberalism and secularism is actually counter productive and is already back firing.


Again, you are entitled to your opinion. You may continue to believe that such terminology(/philosophy) is anti-religious and using it while discussing Islam is wrong, but I agree with the (understanding/vision of the) founding fathers of Pakistan who not only used this terminology, but proudly declared their adherence to it and "welcomed" those who followed it saying that their actions were perfectly justified.


Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, the man who developed the idea of Indian Muslim Nationalism (TNT)that ultimately led to the creation of Pakistan, in a lecture given by him before a large and very influential audience of Muslims in Lucknow, on 18th December, 1887, said :

" ..... Gentlemen, I am not a Conservative, I am a great Liberal.... "


Allama Muhammad Iqbal, the man behind the idea of Pakistan, said:

"We heartily welcome the liberal movement in modern Islam..."

and

"The claim of the present generation of Muslim liberals to re-interpret the foundational legal principles, in the light of their own experience and the altered conditions of modern life, is, in my opinion, perfectly justified."

(Mohammad Iqbal, The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam)


And Jinnah, the creator of Pakistan, fits quite closely the model of the classic liberal politician. He wanted a Liberal constitution for Pakistan (as recorded by Fatima Jinnah in "My Brother")
 
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'To you your religion, and to me my religion!'

As for what will happen in Pakistan, wait and see. Whatever Allah has destined for us, it will happen and no religious extremists, liberals and seculars will be able to do anything about it.
 
'To you your religion, and to me my religion!'

As for what will happen in Pakistan, wait and see. Whatever Allah has destined for us, it will happen and no religious extremists, liberals and seculars will be able to do anything about it.

From the conservative to the extremists opposed Jinnah and Pakistan. Why do you think they opposed Jinnah and Pakistan? And why would they oppose Pakistan if Pakistan was supposed to be in conservative sense? That is where Akal [brain] can help you to find out answer. :D
 
PTI is the political face of Taliban nothing else..step by step..Imran khan has proven to be a shallow hypocrite..lets make Imran leave first as he is also a zaani sharabi secularist..
 
From the conservative to the extremists opposed Jinnah and Pakistan. Why do you think they opposed Jinnah and Pakistan? And why would they oppose Pakistan if Pakistan was supposed to be in conservative sense? That is where Akal [brain] can help you to find out answer. :D

Answer: For power and personal gains!

No need to be a freethinker to figure out that one!
 
From the conservative to the extremists opposed Jinnah and Pakistan. Why do you think they opposed Jinnah and Pakistan? And why would they oppose Pakistan if Pakistan was supposed to be in conservative sense? That is where Akal [brain] can help you to find out answer. :D

Indeed.

The universal opposition of virtually every significant religious group in Undivided India, indeed the entire Muslim religious establishment to Jinnah's Pakistan movement and the Muslim League cannot be reconciled with any idea of religious origins of Pakistan. This is just one of many paradoxes that anyone who thinks of that the true reason for the creation of Pakistan was to establish a religious 'Islamic state', must unravel.


Maulana Maududi, The Mullah in Chief and the most vociferous opponent of Mr. Jinnah and the Pakistan Movement had in fact himself admitted (before the creation of Pakistan) that Jinnah was not struggling for an Islamic Pakistan. From the Horse's mouth:


It was not clear either from any resolution of the Muslim League or from the speeches of any responsible League leaders, that the ultimate aim of Pakistan is the establishment of an Islamic government..... [Maududi, Muslims and Present Struggle, part three, p 131]

and

Not a single leader of the Muslim League, from Quad-i-Azam, downwards, has Islamic mentality and Islamic thinking or they see the things from Islamic point of view. [Ibid p 37]
 

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