Secularists should 'mend ways or leave country', says PTI lawmaker

[Verve]

When it is said to them 'Do not corruption in land',
they say, 'We are only ones that put things right.'
Truly, they are the workers of corruption but they are not aware.

When it is said to them, 'Believe as the people believe',
they say, 'Shall we believe, as fools believe?'
Truly, they are the foolish ones,
but they do not know.
(2:10)

Either you are doing corruption and a fool, or I am. We will find out in our graves.

Let's wrap this up. @Azlan Haider

 

[XenoEnsi-14]

Exploring without consideration of Allah's commands is freethinking, without any guidelines and boundaries.

Exactly how's is that even possible? You mean to tell me that the Universe is outside of God's commands, that it exists without any guidelines and boundaries.

Just because you don't understand doesn't mean we shouldn't seek, otherwise what is the point of having a brain if God want's us to worship without question? That's why Angels were created, to worship God without question or knowing why.

God doesn't lie, humans do. Keep believing in your myths without question and you will be no different than Flat Earth Christians.

You are weak and lack understanding that's why you turned away from logic and reason.

Hindus claim the same, and Kafirs' of the arab used to say the same that there is one God but their 'freethinking' minds lead them to have idols as sub-Gods leading to the One God!

The Hanif were freethinkers, they had no Prophet nor book that wasn't corrupted, and yet they remained on the path of Monotheism. Not everybody's fitra is weak, not everybody turns polygamy. And it's not sub-Gods, it's sub-gods they are false and are not written with capital 'G'. You should've known better but you did it anyway.

You are not even worth talking to anymore.

 

[Sheikh Rauf]

Time to leave beghrat mulla tolla who opposed Pakistan and called Jinnah Kafir e Aazm. No place for bloody fasadai type molvis here

They maybe oppose Quaid e azam,
People who oppose Quaid was their personal decision it did not affect youth kids or families and movement of Pakistan also people with their morality, most of them are in favour of Pakistan now.
its our deen and people who lives in Pak are not western bayghairat those who wants to bring the system of west and impose on Pakistanies they better staying away.
some might dont care if their men or women involve with haram they come from dubatta less to sleeve less to mini to bikini but majority of Pakistani dont want. so Ali Mohammad is right to say that those who want this baygharity can get the hell out cuz we are not going to adobt this &hit.

 

[niaz]

I can see that there are as many members who approve bigotry of Mr Ali Mohammed Khan as there are who oppose it. I am not surprised because Pakistan society has been radicalised since Zia’s time and members of the forum being part of society, also have divided opinions.

Firstly, let us be more than clear that one’s faith is not necessarily connected to his / her political views. One can be a Muslim and hold liberal or secular views at the same time. A liberal by definition follows the Voltaire’s views

“I do not agree with what you are saying but I will defend till death your right to say it.”

If a liberal forces his views on others, he is not a liberal. A secularist on the other hand only believes that State should be completely neutral in the matter of religion; but a secular regime can also tyrannical. We have examples of the communist countries where a difference of opinion could mean a sentence of death as in the case Soviet Union under Stalin or in China under Mao se Tung, where the State imposed proletarian values on the society at gun point.

No society, even in a country like Saudi Arabia; comprises of everyone one having exactly the same views. There are always members who will have different opinions on various issues. It is expected that one of the basic purpose of education is acceptance of pluralistic cultural, ethnic & religious values. Apparently not so in Pakistan, here highly educated leaders are threatening to expel citizens who hold secular views.

The people who use the gun to impose their views on the society are called terrorists. But the root cause of terrorism is “Radicalism”. We witnessed radicalism in action by the student wing of Jamaat Islami when they attacked the Pashtun Culture program at Punjab University campus.” I call radicalism a manifestation of the extremist and intolerant mind-set where opposing views and cultural values are not acceptable Today you are saying that secularists have no place, tomorrow it could be that Shias have no place and next week that Braelvis have no place in Pakistan either, where is the end?

When a member of the Legislature such as Ali Mohammed of PTI says that secularists have no place in Pakistan, it is a clear indication that he may not carry a gun but his mind-set is as intolerant as those of the Taliban. I can certainly say that Pakistan was never created to be such an intolerant country.

On a personal note, Mr Ali Mohammad Khan has every right to hold any radical views that he fancies. Such utterances are indicative of deficiency in ‘Civic’ education and of an extremely narrow minded person.

It appears that it will be a very long time before Pakistan becomes Quaid e Azam’s Pakistan.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Just because you don't understand doesn't mean we shouldn't seek, otherwise what is the point of having a brain if God want's us to worship without question? That's why Angels were created, to worship God without question or knowing why.

God doesn't lie, humans do. Keep believing in your myths without question and you will be no different than Flat Earth Christians.

You are weak and lack understanding that's why you turned away from logic and reason.

Agreed. God has forbidden blind following and encouraged reasoning.


"And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that." (17:36)


"Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason." (8:22)


"Or do you think that most of them hear or reason? They are not except like cattle. Rather, they are [even] more astray in [their] way." (25:44)

 

[Verve]

Exactly how's is that even possible? You mean to tell me that the Universe is outside of God's commands, that it exists without any guidelines and boundaries.

Just because you don't understand doesn't mean we shouldn't seek, otherwise what is the point of having a brain if God want's us to worship without question? That's why Angels were created, to worship God without question or knowing why.

God doesn't lie, humans do. Keep believing in your myths without question and you will be no different than Flat Earth Christians.

You are weak and lack understanding that's why you turned away from logic and reason.

The Hanif were freethinkers, they had no Prophet nor book that wasn't corrupted, and yet they remained on the path of Monotheism. Not everybody's fitra is weak, not everybody turns polygamy. And it's not sub-Gods, it's sub-gods they are false and are not written with capital 'G'. You should've known better but you did it anyway.

You are not even worth talking to anymore.

Man has been given freewill. Some have become Satan worshippers exercising that freewill.

Yes Allah allows it all to happen but enlighten me as to what would lead a human to worship Satan?

Freewill TO Freethinking (without any regards to Allah's command) ... That would lead to the option of Satan worshipping.

 

[Finer]

Man has been given freewill. Some have become Satan worshippers exercising that freewill.

Yes Allah allows it all to happen but enlighten me as to what would lead a human to worship Satan?

Freewill TO Freethinking (without any regards to Allah's command) ... That would lead to the option of Satan worshipping.

ALLAH only accepts the completely submission from ITS servants' freewill. Not forced nor blind faith. It has to be on your own will to submit to ALLAH alone.

Angels do not have free-wills so they are authorized to obey with no question asked. We, on the the hand, are given free wills so we can explore, reason, reflect and understand that comes into the category of free-thinkers which correlates with the basic fundamental rights of Holy Quran.

Allah will not accept the submission by forced nor blind faith. Only the submission by free-will is accepted to ALLAH alone. Surely you should see the value of free-will by now since that also breeds the characteristics of free-thinkers in regards to explore, reason, reflect, and understand.

Hindus claim the same, and Kafirs' of the arab used to say the same that there is one God but their 'freethinking' minds lead them to have idols as sub-Gods leading to the One God!

Do you consider yourself to have the same belief system as current day Hindus or the Kafirs' of the Arab past?

How do you differentiate yourself as a Muslim from these?

Do you believe in the 1st Kalima?

Hindus are just like you already conforms to the man-made culture thus enforcing the basic rule on the society against its wills "Thou shall not question" and "follow the man-made culture" blindly.

Why do you think caste exists in the Indian society? Because they follow the caste system blindly just as you prefer; no question asked. Even though in Bhagvad Gita, there is only ONE GOD and worship to that ONE IMAGELESS GOD only. No statue, no idol nor buddhism.

Unfortunately, people chose to suspend its brain in order to follow the man-made culture blindly. Just follow the man-made culture blind just like you guys are following the man-made political ideology that has nothing to do with Islam, but you choose to ignore the main signs of Holy Quran to ponder; akal [brain]. What good is brain if you choose not to utilize it rather follow blindly?

There is no God But ALLAH and Muhammad is the Messenger of ALLAH.

I am announcing myself to the Islam with asserting in unwavering faith based on my research [knowledge] on Islam and submitting myself to ALLAH alone in my own free-will meaning no coercion.

# The reason i emphasize free-will because in the last five years, i was Atheist who has now joined back to Islam because of faith crisis that boiled down to the common reasons; to question myself [reason for being born], the world and understand the purpose of A CREATOR.

With apostasy in place that has nothing to do with Islam, i would have been hanged to death in Pakistan/KSA due to ignorance of man-made apostasy that derives from political ideology which has nothing to do with Islam whereas a verse has been revealed to defy the purpose of apostasy.

But if they turn away [Prophet], your only duty is to deliver the message clearly. [Quran 16:82]

 

[Verve]

ALLAH accepts the completely submission from ITS freewill. Not forced nor blind faith. It has to be on your own will to submit to ALLAH alone.

Angels do not have free-wills so they are authorized to obey with no question asked. We, on the the hand, are given free wills so we can explore, reason, reflect and understand that comes into the category of free-thinkers which correlates with the basic fundamental rights of Holy Quran.

Allah will not accept the submission by forced nor blind faith. Only the submission by free-will is accepted to ALLAH alone. Surely you should see the value of free-will by now since that also breeds the characteristics of free-thinkers in regards to explore, reason, reflect, and understand.



Hindus are just like you already conforms to the man-made culture thus enforcing the basic rule on the society against its wills "Thou shall not question" and "follow the man-made culture" blindly.

Why do you think caste exists in the Indian society? Because they follow the caste system blindly just as you prefer; no question asked. Even though in Bhagvad Gita, there is only ONE GOD and worship to that ONE IMAGELESS GOD only. No statue, no idol nor buddhism.

Unfortunately, people chose to suspend its brain in order to follow the man-made culture blindly. Just follow the man-made culture blind just like you guys are following the man-made political ideology that has nothing to do with Islam, but you choose to ignore the main signs of Holy Quran to ponder; akal [brain]. What good is brain if you choose not to utilize it rather follow blindly?

There is no God But ALLAH and Muhammad is the Messenger of ALLAH.

I am announcing myself to the Islam with asserting in unwavering faith based on my research [knowledge] on Islam and submitting myself to ALLAH alone in my own free-will meaning no coercion.

# The reason i emphasize free-will because in the last five years, i was Atheist who has now joined back to Islam because of faith crisis that boiled down to the common reasons; to question myself [reason for being born], the world and understand the purpose of A CREATOR.

With apostasy in place that has nothing to do with Islam, i would have been hanged to death in Pakistan/KSA due to ignorance of man-made apostasy that drives from political ideology which has nothing to do with Islam whereas a verse has been revealed to defy the purpose of apostasy.

But if they turn away [Prophet], your only duty is to deliver the message clearly. [Quran 16:82]

Our disagreement is in the use of "freethinking' term.

'Be men possessed of minds' in Quran covers it all. But the term 'freethinker', I would still argue, is wrong.

And I've said before that we should not be explaining Islam as liberal/secular/whatever. If liberal and secular terms hadnt existed, you would be using very different words to explain Islam.

Again the choice of words is wrong.

freethinker
friːˈθɪŋkə/
noun
noun: free-thinker

1. a person who rejects accepted opinions, especially those concerning religious belief.

You do not reject belief in Islam and in Allah's commands. So how can you be one?

Freethought (or "free thought")[1] is a philosophical viewpoint which holds that positions regarding truth should be formed on the basis of logic, reason, and empiricism, rather than authority, tradition, revelation, or other dogma.[1][2][3] The cognitive application of freethought is known as "freethinking", and practitioners of freethought are known as "freethinkers".[1][4]

 

[M. Sarmad]

And I've said before that we should not be explaining Islam as liberal/secular/whatever. If liberal and secular terms hadnt existed, you would be using very different words to explain Islam.

Agreed.

The Quran largely contains verses that refer to specific issues belonging to the time and place of its revelation as it was dealing with real problems of a particular socio-economics (i.e. seventh century Arabia)......... But besides this, The Quran delivers its universal messages to all mankind of all times ..... In our today’s transformed world situation the message of Holy Quran can be rationalized (esp. for Non Muslims) only if it can be "translated" into a modern terminology/philosophies

 

[Verve]

Agreed.

The Quran largely contains verses that refer to specific issues belonging to the time and place of its revelation as it was dealing with real problems of a particular socio-economics (i.e. seventh century Arabia)......... But besides this, The Quran delivers its universal messages to all mankind of all times ..... In our today’s transformed world situation the message of Holy Quran can be rationalized (esp. for Non Muslims) only if it can be "translated" into a modern terminology/philosophies

Use of anti-religion terminologies/philosophies is wrong. More so when two Muslims are discussing Islam!

The issue is that the real Ulema (Ulema in Arabic are scientists, experts in their fields, scholars) are mute. And this is due to lack of proper education in Muslim world inc Pakistan where the present so called Ulemas have taken over this space. Keeping nations illiterate is also by design.

Until that space is clawed back, we will continue to have issues. And this claw back needs to be well planned and executed.

However the rebellion in name of liberalism and secularism is actually counter productive and is already back firing.

 

[XenoEnsi-14]

Yes Allah allows it all to happen but enlighten me as to what would lead a human to worship Satan?

Because people like you say Revelation is absolute, they believe that and even when science can turn one to the right path if understood, you still shun them. They take this as God itself has cast them away, so they begin hating God and what better way than to join Satan?

Not all do this, some still believe in God, yet you keep shunning them and calling them immoral disbelievers.

I've realized it isn't God that hates me long ago, instead it's people like you, a blind taqleed full of pride. The fact you had to ask proves it, you are completely ignorant of your intolerance. You only tolerate your path.

 

[Verve]

Because people like you say Revelation is absolute, they believe that and even when science can turn one to the right path if understood, you still shun them. They take this as God itself has cast them away, so they begin hating God and what better way than to join Satan?

Not all do this, some still believe in God, yet you keep shunning them and calling them immoral disbelievers.

I've realized it isn't God that hates me long ago, instead it's people like you, a blind taqleed full of pride. The fact you had to ask proves it, you are completely ignorant of your intolerance. You only tolerate your path.

This question was to make the one quoted to reflect on what freethinking can lead to.

And tell me one thing that Science has proven wrong that is in The Quran? Maybe you need to read "The Bible, The Quran and Science" by Bucaille Maurice

"In 1976 Bucaille published his book, The Bible, The Qur'an and Science which argued that the Quran contains no statements contradicting established scientific facts.[4] Bucaille argued that the Quran is in agreement with scientific facts, while the Bible is not. He states that in Islam, science and religion have always been "twin sisters" (vii). According to Bucaille, there are monumental errors of science in the Bible and not a single error in the Quran. Bucaille's belief is that the Quran's descriptions of natural phenomena make it compatible with modern science. Bucaille concludes that the Quran is the Word of God. Bucaille argues that some of the most celebrated scientific discoveries in the 20th century, were described in detail and accuracy. Bucaille gives examples of astronomy, embryology, and multiple other subjects that had major advances in the 20th century."



BTW, what faith are you? You seem to have some serious grievances against Muslims!

And

I do not hate you, no reason to. I do not hate anyone. I am neither responsible for nor will be questioned for what you did and didn't do in your life. Your test of 80 or how many ever years you live, your results and subsequent reward/punishment - nothing to do with me. I do not care now, and I will not care then too.

 

[Finer]

Our disagreement is in the use of "freethinking' term.

'Be men possessed of minds' in Quran covers it all. But the term 'freethinker', I would still argue, is wrong.

And I've said before that we should not be explaining Islam as liberal/secular/whatever. If liberal and secular terms hadnt existed, you would be using very different words to explain Islam.

Again the choice of words is wrong.

freethinker
friːˈθɪŋkə/
noun
noun: free-thinker

1. a person who rejects accepted opinions, especially those concerning religious belief.

You do not reject belief in Islam and in Allah's commands. So how can you be one?

Freethought (or "free thought")[1] is a philosophical viewpoint which holds that positions regarding truth should be formed on the basis of logic, reason, and empiricism, rather than authority, tradition, revelation, or other dogma.[1][2][3] The cognitive application of freethought is known as "freethinking", and practitioners of freethought are known as "freethinkers".[1][4]

You are giving definition of free-thinker instead of providing the verse that can question the validity of free-will and free-thinking. Bear in mind that Fujjar means evil-doer and wicked, not free-thinkers.

You are allowed to question Islam to get to know the truth. That's how you discover the truth in the struggle path of the journey to seek the information as free-thinkers to discover the truth. You were born as Muslim, but many people revert to Islam as free-thinkers.

The traits of free-thinkers; explore, reason, reflect and understand. Even if you have to question Islam to get to the bottom of this, then so be it.

This question was to make the one quoted to reflect on what freethinking can lead to.

And tell me one thing that Science has proven wrong that is in The Quran? Maybe you need to read "The Bible, The Quran and Science" by Bucaille Maurice

"In 1976 Bucaille published his book, The Bible, The Qur'an and Science which argued that the Quran contains no statements contradicting established scientific facts.[4] Bucaille argued that the Quran is in agreement with scientific facts, while the Bible is not. He states that in Islam, science and religion have always been "twin sisters" (vii). According to Bucaille, there are monumental errors of science in the Bible and not a single error in the Quran. Bucaille's belief is that the Quran's descriptions of natural phenomena make it compatible with modern science. Bucaille concludes that the Quran is the Word of God. Bucaille argues that some of the most celebrated scientific discoveries in the 20th century, were described in detail and accuracy. Bucaille gives examples of astronomy, embryology, and multiple other subjects that had major advances in the 20th century."

I am glad you brought the interesting point given the correlation between Islam and science. Bear in mind that scientific discovery is the result of free-thinking. As free-thinkers, it is matter of going beyond the boundary to convert theoretical theory into reality. As closed-minded thinkers, they will never get past the boundary to make it happen. Now i hope you see the value on the traits of free-thinkers.

 

[Verve]

You are giving definition of free-thinker instead of providing the verse that can question the validity of free-will and free-thinking. Bear in mind that Fujjar means evil-doer and wicked, not free-thinkers.

You are allowed to question Islam to get to know the truth. That's how you discover the truth in the struggle path of the journey to seek the information as free-thinkers to discover the truth. You were born as Muslim, but many people revert to Islam as free-thinkers.

The traits of free-thinkers; explore, reason, reflect and understand. Even if you have to question Islam to get to the bottom of this, then so be it.

You claimed to be 'freethinker' before I referenced the ayat from Quran on 'Libertines'. Fine, you dispute the translation I have quoted.

However,

Why don't you reference where in Quran we are 'specifically' told to be free-thinkers? Where is this allowance to be free-thinkers from the Quran?

You are hell-bent on using english word that have anti-religion meaning, yet you want to apply them to your Islamic belief system. Wow!

 

[Finer]

You claimed to be 'freethinker' before I referenced the ayat from Quran on 'Libertines'. Fine, you dispute the translation I have quoted.

However,

Why don't you reference where in Quran we are 'specifically' told to be free-thinkers? Where is this allowance to be free-thinkers from the Quran?

You are hell-bent on using english word that have anti-religion meaning, yet you want to apply them to your Islamic belief system. Wow!

Your whole debate rode on the mistranslation which led to the debate on definition now. Even then, not a single verse that points against the use of free-thinking to explore, reason, reflect and understand; and even beyond.

I just did on my previous posts with the verses provided in the crystal clear meaning. Not only that, i even posted the verse that defy the purpose of apostasy laws which you even liked the post suggests you read the post. And examples of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to Companions of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)s' lifestyles which renders Blasphemy laws pointless and un-Islamic in last few pages ago.

Holy Quran has been consistent with encouraging people to use brain [akal] for knowledge. Whereas your debate is riding on the definition that tends to vary depending on how you use the context to apply. You are playing with the words of GOD dangerously close to the edge.