Secularists should 'mend ways or leave country', says PTI lawmaker

[MultaniGuy]

Its funny I was talking to my parents and they mentioned their forefathers mentioned to them the religious fanatic folks were not in favor of formation of Pakistan. They even oppose kids to go get educated in schools

It was really the Educated , muslims (Who mingled with British in schools or schools created by like of Sir Syed etc) who participated in politics and sent their kids in schools who finally decided the fate of national decision.

And it was really the working class educated class who finally tilted the blance in formation of Pakistan based on future nation where certain obectives could be met a more safe environment to live freely as Muslims

Organizations like JI was formed around 1972 just for the record

Seems like a quite educated fella

quite educated and leaders

And again very cultured

Fairly bright educated folks

Fairly modern and quite westernized and it is OK

lol Jinnah is not my prophet.
Jinnah was raised an Ismaili.
Jinnah was a great leader.
Everyone knows that.

According to most Pakistani's Secularism/liberalism=Atheism. Its funny how many people living in foreign countries themselves want Pakistan to be a so called "Islamic State" while they enjoy the freedom of secular nations themselves.

Usually they go there for better education or opportunities.

Not because they are impressed by the culture. I know many Chinese and Indians in Canada. As well as Arabs.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

They are so called distributors of issuing certificates for patriots/Traitors and Kafir or Sarkari Muslim"

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

 

[MultaniGuy]

View attachment 386161

How is that secular? Islam says to protect minorities.
Everyone knows that.

 

[Jungibaaz]

These 'so called' Liberals are a silly minority wanting to impose their ideology on a majority.

Liberalism and "imposing ideology" are diametrically opposed concepts. Liberal philosophy is by definition open to individual rights and their thoughts. It isn't itself a coherent set of ideas in politics, economics or social theory either.

If you mean liberalism doesn't allow you to impose your preferred bias, then you're correct.

 

[MAB]

lol Jinnah is not my prophet.
Jinnah was raised an Ismaili.
Jinnah was a great leader.
Everyone knows that.


Usually they go there for better education or opportunities.

Not because they are impressed by the culture. I know many Chinese and Indians in Canada. As well as Arabs.

Well since you live in Canada then you should also know how mullah's literally get away with everything under the garb of liberalism, so much so that the highschool I went to even allowed muslim student to in school on fridays because of pressure from Muslim community. Its becuase of liberalism that the schools allow this type of behaviour because they want to be inclusive and mullah's will take full advantage of the liberal values of western societies but then want their own countries to remain in the dark ages. The abuse of the system in western societies exactly why you are seeing such a large backlash all over Europe and North America.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Well since you live in Canada then you should also know how mullah's literally get away with everything under the garb of liberalism, so much so that the highschool I went to even allowed muslim student to in school on fridays because of pressure from Muslim community. Its becuase of liberalism that the schools allow this type of behaviour because they want to be inclusive and mullah's will take full advantage of the liberal values of western societies but then want their own countries to remain in the dark ages. The abuse of the system in western societies exactly why you are seeing such a large backlash all over Europe and North America.

Oh really... People go to western societies just because of better opportunities and better education.

 

[wiseone2]

Oh really... People go to western societies just because of better opportunities and better education.

Why is there a backlash against Muslims if they are only for better opportunities and better education ?

 

[AUz]

Ch Rehmat Ali ?? Since when did he become founding father of Pakistan or "Now or Never" became Pakistan's founding document ?? He only coined the word "Pakstan" ... Ch. Rehmat Ali was a religious bigot, his idea of Pakstan was that of an "Islamic Theocracy" ...... Jinnah didn't agree with Rahmat's ideology ..... Rahmat did not agree with Jinnah and his vision


Jinnah was against disintegration of any part of Indian territory originally and he in fact ridiculed the idea of Pakistan and rebuffed Rahmat Ali who sought Jinnah`s support for the formation of a separate state for the Muslims ..

It was the first session of the third Round Table Conference that Ch. Rahmat Ali distributed leaflets advocating Pakistan to the British members of parliament and the Indian delegates . All the Muslim delegates opposed Rahmat`s plans . Jinnah ridiculed it

Rahmat Ali invited Jinnah to a black-tie dinner at London`s Waldorf Hotel in the spring of 1933 . He had arranged Banquet with its oysters and un-Islamic chablis at his own expense hoping to persuade Jinnah to take over his movement . But Rahmat received a "chilly rebuff"

Annoyed and agitated , he described Jinnah as the Boozna (a baboon) of Bombay

Jinnah later borrowed the ideal of Rahmat Ali , his arguments and his nomenclature without even naming him .

Jinnah was bitterly criticized and called a traitor by Rahmat Ali .

Ali issued a pamphlet on 9 jun 1947 regarding Pakistan and the main target of attack was Jinnah :

"In accepting the British plan , Mr Jinnah has acted the Judas and betrayed , bartered and dismembered the Millat ........ His crime is too black to be whitewashed ... its consequences are too calamitous to be forgotten by the Millat ... his attempts are too crude to deceive history " (K.K. Aziz , Rahmat Ali - A biography p.262)

Rahmat also said :
"We found all our hopes reduced to dust and ashes by the folly and foul play of one man alone Quisiling-i-Azam-Jinnah "(K.K. Aziz , Rahmat Ali - A biography p.323)

Lol, what does this post prove at all?

That there were differences between Ch. Rehmat Ali and M.A Jinnah?

You've written pure fluff with no meaning. Just gave useless "references" to feel intellectual without actually driving your point home.

My point was that throughout Pakistan movement pre-partition, Pakistan was envisioned as an Islamic country to be made in India, NOT a secular country.

Pakistani founding documents (Pakistan Resolution, our first Constitution, and Objective Resolution etc) ALL imagined and declared Pakistan as an Islamic state.

Your premise that Pakistan was made as an secular country literally has no validity in history. Not even one document mentioned Pakistan's secular nature...pre and post partition. The masses who struggled for Pakistan did not saw themselves fighting for a secular Republic like Germany---but an Islamic country in subcontinent. "Pakistan ka mtlab kya? La Ilaha Il Allah" became a mainstream slogan for Muslims of subcontinent struggling for their own independent nation-state in the region. You think they had 'secularism' in mind as they raised these slogans and campaign for the creation of Pakistan?

As I said, you can fool yourself--but please don't try to fool the audience.

Founding Father's imagination of Pakistan

Allama Iqbal:

Allama Muhammad Iqbal in 1937, in a letter to Jinnah wrote, "After a long and careful study of Islamic Law I have come to the conclusion that if this system of Law is properly understood and applied, at last the right to subsistence is secured to every body. But the enforcement and development of the Shariat of Islam is impossible in this country without a free Muslim state or states. This has been my honest conviction for many years and I still believe this to be the only way to solve the problem of bread for Muslims as well as to secure a peaceful India.

(Source: Iqbal's letters to Jinnah: Columbia University Press)

Muhammad Ali Jinnah:

"Pakistan is the premier Islamic State and the fifth largest in the world. . . The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of men, justice and fair-play to everybody.’’

(Source: Radio Broadcast to the People of the United States of America, February 1948)

"You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil.” (Quaid-e-Azam)

Furthermore, Liaquat Ali Khan, Pakistan's first prime minister, introduced "Objective's Resolution" in Pakistan's assembley in 1949. Same Objective Resolution that declared Pakistan to be a state based on Islam.

These are just few examples, if you study Pakistan movement in detail---it becomes clear that Pakistan was destined to be an Islamic country based in the ideals of Islam.

There is absolutely zero evidence that Pakistan's founders wanted it to be a secular country. Please stop lying through your teeth and quoting irrelevant material out of context.

You can argue that we have failed to produce a just and examplery Islamic Republic that M.A Jinnah wanted us to...that's a totally valid argument. But to say that Pakistan was not supposed to be an Islamic state but a secular Republic is nothing but pure mythology.

 

[Finer]

How is that secular? Islam says to protect minorities.
Everyone knows that.

Islam is technically secular since both endorse similar protocols. In a way, Islam is secular. After all, it is same Islam that crushed conservative mindset 1400 years ago, and made inroads for liberal lifestyle from endorsing equality to giving new face for women and promoting knowledge.

 

[Musafir117]

don't know why people here start jumping up and down after hearing the word liberal while me @The Sandman @Zibago @Musafir117 and many other liberal fellows over here has many times explained our intentions(truth be told i am tired of doing it again and again) and the meaning of the word liberal here

here read this article written by me and explained by my fellow PDF liberals what our views are.we are not the enemy of the state nor we are paid agents as most of you guys believe.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/what-does-being-a-liberal-means.477426/

انکا قصور نہیں ہے بھائی ! الله اور اسکے رسول کے دین پر چلیں تو بھلائی ہے ناکے دین ملا میں .ہم نے پاکستان قاعداعظم جناح کی پیروی کر کےلیا ہے ورنہ ملا ٹولہ تو کانگرس کی گود میں بیٹھا ہواتھا . اور وہی ملا ٹولہ آج بےشرمی کے ساتھ پاکستان کا ٹھیکیدار بن بیٹھا ہے

Don't know why they so afraid Here is none a thread start by us who have moderate thoughts about liberal or mulla tolla and these Thekedar never missed a chance to open a new one.
Well, For religion I have teaching of Quran and also beautiful teaching of Mohammad SAW enough for me to follow and Visions Of Great Qaid e Azam to a state be. Allah Hamm Sab ko Deen e Mulla se Bachae Ameen.
Thanks to tag me I am out of this thread as it's going to Level Two soon as I define earlier. Soon someone come and blast himself here as they already have their swords open and ready to kill if someone don't agree with them. Peace

 

[Finer]

These are just few examples, if you study Pakistan movement in detail---it becomes clear that Pakistan was destined to be an Islamic country based in the ideals of Islam.

There is absolutely zero evidence that Pakistan's founders wanted it to be a secular country. Please stop lying through your teeth and quoting irrelevant material out of context.

You can argue that we have failed to produce a just and examplery Islamic Republic that M.A Jinnah wanted us to...that's a totally valid argument. But to say that Pakistan was not supposed to be an Islamic state but a secular Republic is nothing but pure mythology.

Islamic country based on Islam is akin to the secular. That is what Jinnah (R.A) intended with the hint; Islamic democracy. What does that mean to you since you seem to be confused making Islam and secular stands apart even though both offer similar interpretation.

Pakistan is based on Islamic democracy just like 1400 years ago that crushed conservative mindset. It is based on secularism where everyone are equal regardless of their faiths. Hence the term Islamic democracy, not Islamic conservative or outdated political ideology of conservative group that contradicts the real Islam.

Why don't you research on what does real Islam and secular stand for? It appears you are just using the title Islamic without understanding behind the meaning of the title. By meaning, both Islam and secular are same just as Jinnah (R.A) intended. Need i remind to you that Jinnah (R.A) had secular background where he was opposed by conservative groups who were anti-Pakistan movement?

It was people with secular beliefs that supported Jinnah (R.A) plans for Pakistan; not conservative groups who opposed Pakistan should not have any say on Pakistan nor should be allowed to dictate on the behalf of Pakistan against Pakistan thus compromising the visions of Pakistan which both Jinnah (R.A) and Allama Iqbal (R.A) envisioned.

 

[T-Rex]

That doesn't change the fact that Islam is technically Secular/Liberal judging by the Holy Quran. Islamic Republic also means Secular/Liberal; not conservative which people are desperate to link with Islam even though Islam crushed the conservative mindset 1400 years ago and promoted equality, gave new face for women, and endorsed knowledge [meaning any knowledge.

First you should offer an explanation of what you mean by secular, liberal and conservative. Remember secular does not necessarily mean liberal or democratic. Socialism does not necessarily mean secular. Matter of fact there are more examples of secular regimes which are totally undemocratic and tyrannical. Now tell me what is so liberal about those secular states where people are banned from wearing hijab? Yes, I agree that Islam does not allow a system where rights of people be it the rights of Muslims or non-Muslims are violated but what we've been observing is an attempt by the west to vilify anything Islamic in the name of secularism. That is unacceptable! Do you see how persecuted Rohynga Muslims in Burma are being portrayed as Islamic terrorists? This is the trend we're fighting all around the globe. Now what kind of secularism or liberal way of life is that?

 

[Hell hound]

First you should offer an explanation of what you mean by secular, liberal and conservative. Remember secular does not necessarily mean liberal or democratic. Socialism does not necessarily mean secular. Matter of fact there are more examples of secular regimes which are totally undemocratic and tyrannical. Now tell me what is so liberal about those secular states where people are banned from wearing hijab? Yes, I agree that Islam does not allow a system where rights of people be it the rights of Muslims or non-Muslims are violated but what we've been observing is an attempt by the west to vilify anything Islamic in the name of secularism. That is unacceptable! Do you see how persecuted Rohynga Muslims in Burma are being portrayed as Islamic terrorists? This is the trend we're fighting all around the globe. Now what kind of secularism or liberal way of life is that?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/secu...-says-pti-lawmaker.485224/page-4#post-9319841

 

[SoulSpokesman]

Fallen King,

Islamic country based on Islam is akin to the secular.

That is a very beautiful point you make. That a truly Islamic country is secular. That is why IMHO, Pakistani liberals should take a different route altogether. Rather than demand a secular state which raises the hackles of the junta, they should agitate for an Islamic system based on Islam. This will satisfy aam junta and maulvis and liberals too as a truly Islamic system is secular, liberal and progressive anyway.

Regards