Secularism in the context of Pakistan

[livingdead]

My reply was a generic one, towards the discussion at large and not specifically pointed at you.

ah ok.. I dont know then.

 

[-SINAN-]

Do you even know what and who are Islamists?

Definition of Islamist or let's say the whole concept. Has been described by Atatürk long ago....

Religion is an important institution. A nation without religion cannot survive. Yet it is also very important to note that religion is a link between Allah and the individual believer. The brokerage of the pious cannot be permitted. Those who use religion for their own benefit are detestable. We are against such a situation and will not allow it. Those who use religion in such a manner have fooled our people; it is against just such people that we have fought and will continue to fight. Know that whatever conforms to reason, logic, and the advantages and needs of our people conforms equally to Islam. If our religion did not conform to reason and logic, it would not be the perfect religion, the final religion.

And an other one.

He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Like the Prophet(S.A.W) did?

Oh Bhai

kiyon drag kur rahay ho Prophet ko.

We are talking about Islamists like Mardood Mullah mawdoodi, Ayatulla Khabeesi, and Saudi Mullahs, Bin fing laden, Aiman fing zawahir. or the goons of TTP, or Mullah munwwar etc. who are abusing Islam in the name of Jihad and politics.

Definition of Islamist or let's say the whole concept. Has been described by Atatürk long ago....



And an other one.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk

Wow brother

What a gem of information.

I am truly humbled that a man in 1900s was talking about stuff that is applicable at this very moment.

Wow.

Thanks for sharing.

I hope Turks will never let this man's teachings slip away under pressure from Islamists.


peace

Secularism has no context in Pakistan, hence stop preaching it to kids.
Its an individual belief, keep it to your self or get prepare to accept return preach.

Islam too is a belief for individuals and not to be sold to beardo Mullahs.

That is the whole idea of the thread.

 

[Bilal.]

Oh Bhai

kiyon drag kur rahay ho Prophet ko.

We are talking about Islamists like Mardood Mullah mawdoodi, Ayatulla Khabeesi, and Saudi Mullahs, Bin fing laden, Aiman fing zawahir. or the goons of TTP, or Mullah munwwar etc. who are abusing Islam in the name of Jihad and politics.



http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk

Wow brother

What a gem of information.

I am truly humbled that a man in 1940s was talking about stuff that is applicable at this very moment.

Wow.

Thanks for sharing.

I hope Turks will never let this man's teachings slip away under pressure from Islamists.


peace



Islam too is a belief for individuals and not to be sold to beardo Mullahs.

That is the whole idea of the thread.

Don't get senti dude, the reply was to a members definition of Islamist, if it's someone who believes in political/economical/social/active Islam then there is nothing wrong with Islamist. So did the Prophet (S.A.W) practice political/economical/social/active Islam, the answer is yes. So next time you abuse these terms remember that.

Additionally, the whole term is derived from The root "ist" meaning "someone who Practices or holds belief in" so Islamist is some who practices and holds belief in Islam. So if you are referring to TTP type use some other word extremist, kharji, etc. are the correct terms and don't use the argument to generalise and by extension deride everyone who believes that Islam is a complete code of life politics included.

-ist | Define -ist at Dictionary.com

Finally Islam is not just a belief for individuals but also includes guidance for society as a whole

 

[FaujHistorian]

Don't get senti dude, the reply was to a members definition of Islamist, if it's someone who believes in political/economical/social/active Islam then there is nothing wrong with Islamist. So did the Prophet (S.A.W) practice political/economical/social/active Islam, the answer is yes. So next time you abuse these terms remember that.

Additionally, the whole term is derived from The root "ist" meaning "someone who Practices or holds belief in" so Islamist is some who practices and holds belief in Islam. So if you are referring to TTP type use some other word extremist, kharji, etc. are the correct terms and don't use the argument to generalise and by extension deride everyone who believes that Islam is a complete code of life politics included.

-ist | Define -ist at Dictionary.com

Finally Islam is not just a belief for individuals but also includes guidance for society as a whole

Rule #1 for you

Never ever never ever ever drag Prophet into a discussion where cruel and inhumane, pagan and tribal behavior (that was prevalent 2000 years ago) is being shunned.

You will be guilty of disrespecting our prophet pbuh with your own hands.


So quit it.


We are discussing God fathers, mafiosos, Mullahs, Auatullis, Bin fing ladens here.

Do not push holy prophet into this heap of goons.


Thank you.

 

[funtoosh]

\


Rule #1 for you

Never ever never ever ever drag Prophet into a discussion where cruel and inhumane, pagan and tribal behavior is being shunned.

You will be guilty of disrespecting our prophet pbuh with your own hands.


So quit it.


We are discussing God fathers, mafiosos, Mullahs, Auatullis, Bin fing ladens here.

Do not push holy prophet into this heap of goons.


Thank you.

there is nothing wrong with pagan religions. in fact its better than the new age religions which appeared less than 2000 years ago.

 

[Bilal.]

\


Rule #1 for you

Never ever never ever ever drag Prophet into a discussion where cruel and inhumane, pagan and tribal behavior is being shunned.

You will be guilty of disrespecting our prophet pbuh with your own hands.


So quit it.


We are discussing God fathers, mafiosos, Mullahs, Auatullis, Bin fing ladens here.

Do not push holy prophet into this heap of goons.


Thank you.

I am sorry but you are no one to set rules, if you dont understand the rational explanation I gave in the previous post then it's your lack of comprehension skill not mine. it would be better if you answer in a logical way instead of acting as an extremist who is devoid of logic.

The Prophet (S.A.W) is the ultimate example for us and nothing is wrong in looking at him and his life as an example and reference.

Thank you.

 

[FaujHistorian]

....
The Prophet (S.A.W) is the ultimate example for us and nothing is wrong in looking at him and his life as an example and reference.

Thank you.

you are confusing two things.
-- Prophets are examples for individuals like me or you.
-- But many of the systems they used in their times are utterly obsolete


-- you cannot use the donkey for traveling anymore, at least not on the motorway
-- No more flying carpets (they were fantasy even back then) use a boeing or airbus please
-- Government system back then was simply tribal mumbo jumbo
-- Taxation
-- industry
-- banking sector

all were non existent.

So now if you insist on riding donkey on motorway just because one of the prophets used it.

then I have to question your sanity



Do not behave like medieval Christians

they did the same,

and some still do

Medieval Christians said, What would Jesus do (and some Christians still put stickers on their cars)

Why on earth

you will propagate medieval Christian behavior in the name of Islam and that too in 2013?


Why would you insist on riding donkeys on motorway

why oh why?

 

[hussain0216]

Tolerant and exclusive?????, the secular types and liberal types want to act like harmii's and not get challenged in a muslim society. So they want to drink alcohol, behave & dress like whores without society judging them etc

They term anyone opposed to their lifestyle as islamist, mullah etc when generally speaking most of what the people oppose is perfectly in line with basic islam

Drinking/allowing alcahol, haram dress, haram relationships, relations with states like israel, most secularists & liberals support all the above yet all the above actions contradict islam


We should be less concerned about titles and definitions and more about being muslims

 

[FaujHistorian]

.... the secular types and liberal types want to act like harmii's and not get challenged in a muslim society. So they want to drink alcohol, behave & dress like whores without society judging them etc...

Are Chinese acting like Haramis?

Why you think that two wrongs make it right?

So as per your logic

-- A whore standing on the roadside

justifies

-- Mullah Munwwar of Jahliyya fil Islam (JI) party chief to declare terrorist as Shaheed

Wow

what kind of logic goes around in your head?

 

[ssethii]

you are confusing two things.
-- Prophets are examples for individuals like me or you.
-- But many of the systems they used in their times are utterly obsolete


-- you cannot use the donkey for traveling anymore, at least not on the motorway
-- No more flying carpets (they were fantasy even back then) use a boeing or airbus please
-- Government system back then was simply tribal mumbo jumbo
-- Taxation
-- industry
-- banking sector

all were non existent.

So now if you insist on riding donkey on motorway just because one of the prophets used it.

then I have to question your sanity



Do not behave like medieval Christians

they did the same,

and some still do

Medieval Christians said, What would Jesus do (and some Christians still put stickers on their cars)

Why on earth

you will propagate medieval Christian behavior in the name of Islam and that too in 2013?


Why would you insist on riding donkeys on motorway

why oh why?

So what are you suggesting then
To dump all the books written at that time too and rewrite them now according to the present age?
A new fiqqah("system") should be introduced because all others are absolete?

 

[Counter-Errorist]

Why religion is so important for most of people in Muslim countries? Why can not a citizen of Muslim nations have a life without invoking religion into all aspect of life ?...If we can, i feel that is enough to understand the meaning of secularism...

Unlike other religions, Islam is not just a religion per modern definition, it's a way of life. Literally.

Muslims don't just follow Islam as a ritualistic practice of praying 5 times a day, it's required to be deeply embedded in life. The purpose of a Muslim's life is to be a good Muslim, everything else is secondary. So every action needs to be taken in the context of Islam. That's also the reason why Islam conflicts so deeply with even secularism, let alone other religions.

 

[qamar1990]

So many of my fellow countrymen are utterly confused about the term "Secularism".

Poor thangs do not realize that secularism shlecurims is just a slogan.

What people really want us Pakistanis is to reduce our fundoo Islamist habits and become normal human beings.

Human beings that are inclusive and tolerant.

That's all.

Please do not get the panties in a bunch over one terminology over the other.

we don't want to be like fauji.
we want to have political islam is pakistan. 95 percent of pakistanis do.
we aren't going to listen to you. perhaps maybe 100 years down the road when pakistanis are more liberal but as of right now your just dreaming boy.
and stop posting shit on this section of the forum it doe't belong here.

Jaan ki amaan paoon to arz hai bhai.

Islamist is the one who distorts Islam by mixing it with dirty politics and other tribal mumbo jumbo.

Sort of Arab pagan who simply recites Kalima without ever believing in decency, morality, tolerance, honesty and truth.

Like a typical shopkeeper in our bazars who has foot long beard, 5 hujj, 20 umra, and yet sells adulterated food.

Like typical mardood Mullah mawdoodi who claims to be schlar and still pushes his dastardly tribal Islamist agenda against Jinnah

Like Ayatullah Khabeesi who claims to be rooh of Allah and yet kills and maims via his proxy terrorists.

Like Saudi Mullahs who support Qaida and Tali-barbarians.

Hope you see enough examples here
Hope you can now differentiate between an ordinary Muslim and an Islamist.

Thank you

thats an islamist? what you described up there is basically every person in a third world country except for the beard part.

they thought secular means kaffir want to walk naked on streets . secular minds think free sex with anyone and seculers are worse then jew poor brains

jesus christ your atheist really think too highly of yourselfs lol.
we know what secularism is. pakistan will never be secular in your or my life time. just get it in your head buddy.

 

[FaujHistorian]

So what are you suggesting then
To dump all the books written at that time too and rewrite them now according to the present age?
A new fiqqah("system") should be introduced because all others are absolete?

Well if a book says earth is flat dump it. It clearly contradicts modern understanding.

Similarly

Any fiqh that results in murdering and killing and suicide bombing in the name of Islam, dump it.

And

replace it with a system that respects every citizen, protects him from being persecuted in the name of relgion etc.


Why it is so hard to use your own head.

instead of saying some qazi wrote xyz 1300 years ago is the only thing you will understand.


Peace

 

[qamar1990]

Somethings can sound similar but have exact opposite meanings.

Islamist is one such term that may rhyme with many other,

but may not be of the same application.


A physicist may have a PhD in Physics but ready to accept new theories and definitions related to physics.


But

an Islamist is usually hell bent on taking people back to stone age or even dinosaur era


Please do not mix scientists and revolutionaries and their terminologies with stone age tribalism.


Thank you

you just make your definitions up huh? lol.
you sound like your really deluded.