Secular Liberalism’s sex & alcohol problem

[Verve]

ahahahahah..... Very true indeed. That's what always baffles me as well. The funny thing is as one Pakistani member here @The Sandman said without our liberal values/personal freedom and laissez-faire attitude people from immigrant background like many members here won't even be granted access to the west in the first place, much less prosper/hold high ranking positions in western countries. However, sometimes these same immigrants who fled their 'holy religious' countries for a better life/freedom in the west are the very same ones who often despise liberals in the West. What they often forget is that without our liberals they won't be even be allowed here in the first place. So in some way they should be eternally grateful for our liberalism, democracy and multicuralism, yet it's the opposite. That's the irony of it all, it's something I find really puzzling and funny at the same time. Lol


I'm afraid the copyright of that belongs to our illustrious member @Azadkashmir ,
All rights reserved.

We have no issues with the system you want in place for your country. But we do have an issue with such a system to be forced upon our country.

As for immigrants, they contribute to the economy. Let's not forget that! A full grown adult immigrant who enters and starts contributing to the economy costs nothing whereas someone born costs the government over a million in benefits (inc schooling, university etc) before he starts paying back in the economy. So please, don't bang on with this 'access to the West' mantra ... had immigration not been a requirement of the growing economy, the visa regime wouldn't have been so relaxed until the 2008 recession!

 

[Indus Pakistan]

And no, I don't think I've given up on my people

I don't think I said you did. Or did I?

neither has Syed sahab

There is being critical - constructive. And there is critical - to gloat.

I don't think this country can set itself back on the correct trajectory

I don't think it has either. But I think course correction has began but it will take at least between 1-2 generations before we see discernable progress. I certainly root for a secular Pakistan where the state exists to provide the best opportunities for average citizen to live a happy prosperous life. And not be invested in any idealogies etc that serve merely to deflect from the primary duty of the state. Provide the best economic, social conditions for the citizens.

 

[El Sidd]

I don't think I said you did. Or did I?

There is being critical - constructive. And there is critical - to gloat.

I don't think it has either. But I think course correction has began but it will take at least between 1-2 generations before we see discernable progress. I certainly root for a secular Pakistan where the state exists to provide the best opportunities for average citizen to live a happy prosperous life. And not be invested in any idealogies etc that serve merely to deflect from the primary duty of the state. Provide the best economic, social conditions for the citizens.

All of these can be provided by form of governance which doesn't have to necessarily be secularist.

Its just the name which differentiates between constructive critical and just critical lamenting.

Fundamentalist right here.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Its just the name which differentiates between constructive critical and just critical lamenting.

No. Sorry. I have no truck with religion. The problem is religion in public space leads to toxic results. I believe religion has zero place in the public domain. However it has total domain in the private individual. That is it has intrinsic value but no extrinsic value.

What I mean is my faith should be turned inside me. My faith should be invested into me by me. The goal being to make myself a better person. If I can do that religion has succeeded. However I should not use my faith to chain others or attempt to "improve" them. I should solely use faith to improve myself. And nurture the same on others but without any sanction. It should be voluntary as religion with sanction has no currency. Articles of faith cannot be shoved down peoples throats. I believe in Islam we have "no compulsion in faith" thus underscoring what I am saying.

The reason why religion is toxic and always will be toxic in public space is simple. On any issue we must have right to disagree and right to differ. No party or person should hold the absolute licence on the truth. The problkem with religion is it introduces god into the equation. In this scenario people start using god to peddle their argumant. When this is done it leads to chaos and bloodshed. Because those who assume to peddle gods wish are prepared to kill. Because in their system their loyalty is to god. We had the case of Qadri who shot Salman Taseer. That is the natural destination of this type of thinking.

And best of all. You get one bunch that claims to be Allah's reps on earth facing another bunch who claim to be Allah's reps on earth. What follows? They start killing each other. Have a look at the Shia/Sunni and all the other shades killing each other - all in Allah's name.

The sovereignty of Allah is used by mortal people like me and you to peddle their argumants. A politician is a politician but a politician who claims Allahs sanction via sovereignty is a tyranny dressed as religion. That nobody dares question because - well who is going to questions Allah's will?

 

[M. Sarmad]

You do realise that in Islam, yout religion comes first and nation after?

Are you even aware of how Islam thinks of this ideal of putting nation before religion? I'll give you a hint, according to the Quran and Sunnah it makes you something that starts with a k.

In Political Islam only ...

You do realize that you only follow a narrow twisted (mis)interpretation of Islam ?


Do you know that during the struggle for freedom, the over whelming majority of Ulema in India advocated "Composite Nationalism" ... You do realize you have just declared all of them "Kafirs" ?


During the struggle for the freedom(and even today), the most important issue which concerned Muslim Scholars and political activists was about the national and religious identity of Indian Muslims and their position in the future India ...


Hussain Ahmed Madani (The Rector of Darul Uloom Deoband) and many others advocated "Composite Nationalism", (i.e. despite cultural, linguistic and religious differences, the people of India were but one nation). The proponents of composite nationalism believed/argued that this idea was consistent with the teachings of the Holy Quran and that the Prophet (PBUH) himself had set a practical example of Composite Nationalism when he signed the Constitution of Medina (Meesaq-e-Medina)



Then there were those who advocated the idea of "Muslim Nationalism in India" ... This idea formed the basis of the Two Nation Theory ... This idea/theory implies/implied that We were Muslims before being Indian ... And We were Indian before being (Non-Indian) Muslim ... This theory created and propounded by modernist and reformist Muslims (like Sir Syed) was inspired by Western Political Theories (of John Lock, Thomas Paine, Milton etc.).... It in a way advocated a Pan-Islamism that was restricted by geographical boundaries of the Nation state (of India, and now Pakistan).


And there were others (like Maududi) who were of the view that neither Composite Nationalism nor Muslim Nationalism were Islamic in their orientation, therefore, they warned the Muslims of the sub-continent to be beware of both.

 

[RAMPAGE]

I don't think I said you did. Or did I?

There is being critical - constructive. And there is critical - to gloat.

I haven't been really around for quite some time so I might have forgotten how he likes to gloat, hehe. However, I did remember that he's one of the smartest people around. His cynicism aside, you'd be surprised how alike the two of you are. I can tell that by merely reading a couple of your posts.

I don't think it has either. But I think course correction has began but it will take at least between 1-2 generations before we see discernable progress. I certainly root for a secular Pakistan where the state exists to provide the best opportunities for average citizen to live a happy prosperous life. And not be invested in any idealogies etc that serve merely to deflect from the primary duty of the state. Provide the best economic, social conditions for the citizens.

And that's what I asked you to explain; what makes you say the course correction has begun? This is not a rhetorical question; I am genuinely curious and I hope you're right.

In Political Islam only ...

You do realize that you only follow a narrow twisted (mis)interpretation of Islam ?


Do you know that during the struggle for freedom, the over whelming majority of Ulema in India advocated "Composite Nationalism" ... You do realize you have just declared all of them "Kafirs" ?


During the struggle for the freedom(and even today), the most important issue which concerned Muslim Scholars and political activists was about the national and religious identity of Indian Muslims and their position in the future India ...


Hussain Ahmed Madani (The Rector of Darul Uloom Deoband) and many others advocated "Composite Nationalism", (i.e. despite cultural, linguistic and religious differences, the people of India were but one nation). The proponents of composite nationalism believed/argued that this idea was consistent with the teachings of the Holy Quran and that the Prophet (PBUH) himself had set a practical example of Composite Nationalism when he signed the Constitution of Medina (Meesaq-e-Medina)



Then there were those who advocated the idea of "Muslim Nationalism in India" ... This idea formed the basis of the Two Nation Theory ... This idea/theory implies/implied that We were Muslims before being Indian ... And We were Indian before being (Non-Indian) Muslim ... This theory created and propounded by modernist and reformist Muslims (like Sir Syed) was inspired by Western Political Theories (of John Lock, Thomas Paine, Milton etc.).... It in a way advocated a Pan-Islamism that was restricted by geographical boundaries of the Nation state (of India, and now Pakistan).


And there were others (like Maududi) who were of the view that neither Composite Nationalism nor Muslim Nationalism were Islamic in their orientation, therefore, they warned the Muslims of the sub-continent to be beware of both.

I hope you're well.

 

[SQ8]

Considering the amount of Sex and Drugs found in GCC countries and their otherwise overtly religious elite.. I'd take reality rather than hypocrisy.

Not to mention the many religious PiRs, Madressa candidates and Shia/ anti-Qadiyani/Sufi etc takfiris otherwise found frolicking around Chaklas..
top that off with a council of Islamic ideology that wants to distort history and interpretation so it can commit pedophilic acts and enjoy their taste for a virgin but are comfortable getting drunk at embassy parties and bribing Islamabad police to hush it up with the donations they get from these embassies.

Laanat ho aise dikhawe ke deen par aur dramebaz qaum par.

 

[Imad.Khan]

This is an extremely simple topic that has been made complicated because people don't actually know the meaning of Liberalism or Secular Liberalism. So i am going to try and explain as best as i can.

Liberalism means freedom (Liberty) and equality. Freedom to speak your mind, freedom to follow your religion, freedom to speak any language, freedom to live your life as per your wishes, equal rights to get an education, equal rights to get healthcare, equal rights to get jobs, equal rights to do business, equal rights whether your a man or a woman, equal rights to get justice.

Secular Liberalism basically means separation of religion from the state/politics. it means that the country doesn't have an official religion.

Some people think that Liberalism means you can do whatever you want without consequences, thats not correct. Just like in any contract there is a fine print similarly there are some conditions that need to be followed, so you have freedom to do what ever you like as long as you don't break any laws, for example you have the right to free speech as long as your speech doesn't not incite hatred or violence, etc etc.

Now regarding Liberalism having Sex and Alcoholism problem, i don't think that is accurate. For example every weekend Saudis drive to Bahrain with the intention of consuming Alcohol and we all know that Saudis are not Liberals. You can be liberal and still ban alcohol and adultery just like drugs and rapes are banned. But prosecuting someone because of his religious beliefs or stopping girls from gaining education etc etc is not being conservative, its actually discrimination.

I think majority of Pakistanis are liberals, even though they might not know it. Well anyways this is my viewpoint.

 

[Vapnope]

The problem here is that in liberal or secular societies drinking alcohol and having consensual sex between two adults is not considered a sin and hence people more people are open about such things in those societies. In Muslim societies, both fall into category of sin and people get penalized for it. The most important thing to note here is that despite being a sin in muslim countries, drugs and out of wedlock sex is common. You want stats i can give you stats.

 

[El Sidd]

No. Sorry. I have no truck with religion. The problem is religion in public space leads to toxic results. I believe religion has zero place in the public domain. However it has total domain in the private individual. That is it has intrinsic value but no extrinsic value.

What I mean is my faith should be turned inside me. My faith should be invested into me by me. The goal being to make myself a better person. If I can do that religion has succeeded. However I should not use my faith to chain others or attempt to "improve" them. I should solely use faith to improve myself. And nurture the same on others but without any sanction. It should be voluntary as religion with sanction has no currency. Articles of faith cannot be shoved down peoples throats. I believe in Islam we have "no compulsion in faith" thus underscoring what I am saying.

The reason why religion is toxic and always will be toxic in public space is simple. On any issue we must have right to disagree and right to differ. No party or person should hold the absolute licence on the truth. The problkem with religion is it introduces god into the equation. In this scenario people start using god to peddle their argumant. When this is done it leads to chaos and bloodshed. Because those who assume to peddle gods wish are prepared to kill. Because in their system their loyalty is to god. We had the case of Qadri who shot Salman Taseer. That is the natural destination of this type of thinking.

And best of all. You get one bunch that claims to be Allah's reps on earth facing another bunch who claim to be Allah's reps on earth. What follows? They start killing each other. Have a look at the Shia/Sunni and all the other shades killing each other - all in Allah's name.

The sovereignty of Allah is used by mortal people like me and you to peddle their argumants. A politician is a politician but a politician who claims Allahs sanction via sovereignty is a tyranny dressed as religion. That nobody dares question because - well who is going to questions Allah's will?

If you say this is your BELIEF than ofcourse you have every right to practice that belief. You are a fundamentalist secularist just like i am a fundamentalist Pakistani Muslim.

Anything that secularism can offer in public or private domain can be topped by Islamic interpretation as well.

Qadri shot Salman due to corruption not due to any belief. He got hanged and rule of law prevailed.

In the end it is just a good old BELIEF vs BELIEF. The practicality is Democracy and refusal for that is Anarchy. When a majority chunk of your country says they want to live in a certain way of life, and you promote something opposite, you are oppressing them. This is the reason when the law and the subject live side by side yet remain foreign and alien to each other. This is the reason why innocent mislead Pakistanis say Islam comes first then Pakistan because they feel or sometimes sold the idea that Pakistan is not an Islamic society and how do you think the masses will cope when you call it a secular country?

As far as Shia Sunni debate goes. These have little value in terms of law where personal law can be derived accordingly or unified based on consensus.

You are free to go to your mosque and free to secular preaching centers in Pakistan according to Jinnah and as practiced in Pakistan. When the French tear off Burkas because it is not reflective of their societal values or is alien to them, we understand. we even promote that conservative Muslims should think twice before going to the west. just like the Europeans think twice before coming to Dubai for their holidays.

there are two set of ways of living and both are free to promote them. there can exist respect between them but never assimilation. this is why the white man shouts clash of civilization.

two screams 'shariah in europe' and then 'secularism in Pakistan' are actually disrespecting the very people who live in these lands

 

[Indus Pakistan]

And that's what I asked you to explain; what makes you say the course correction has begun? This is not a rhetorical question; I am genuinely curious and I hope you're right.

I am a firm believer in economics being a significant factor in influencing/shaping politics and society. In blunt terms the sources/processes that places your food on the table will end up have significant leverage over your views on politics and culture. Or he who pays calls the shots.

Pakistan has always been [even before 1947] a crude "parasite economy". Income is generated by simply tendering out a commodity. I can sum up Pakistan's economy thus-

1947-1970 ~ Aid from USA/West in exchange for renting Pakistan in anti USSR alliance.

1970-Present ~ Migrant labour export GCC. Renting Pakistan to GCC.
1980-1990 ~ Aid from USA/West in exchange for renting Pakistan in Afghan Jihad.
2001-2011 ~ Aid from USA/West in exchange for renting Pakistan in US project in Afghanistan

As you can see from 1947-1970 the Pakistani economy remained entirely dependant on US/Western aid. During this period our governments remained entirely beholden to the West and Ayub's administration that covered most of this period was either explicity secular or implicitly secular. The traditional reactionery mullahs were used against the left but were kept muzzled. This period is today seen as the golden years of Pakistan - a country that was tolerant and accepting of diversity.

However from 1970s onwards the political economy went through profound change. Increasing numbers of migrant workers went to the emerging GCC. Our educated class were bought out by petrodollars. Increasining our political economy became dependant on GCC money. That introduced GCC influence via wahabism. Bhutto kowtowing to Arab sheikhs in Lahore was manifestation of this change. The "Islamic ummah" songs began to take root. Underneath all this was the massive amount of GCC petrodollars flooding into Pakistan and buying out influence and our elite.

This process was consolidated during the Afghan jihad under General Zia. Although Pakistan got two shots of Western economic transfusion [1980/1990 under Zia and 2001/2011 under Musharaf] the renting of services to GCC has continued unabated from 1970. This has created a political economy that is dependant GCC. This has introduced massive amount of GCC influence as society has become radical; Most of our preachers are sponsored or see GCC as the inspiration. Even our political class are beholden to GCC rulers.

However the era of being able to live off by renting out to GCC is changing. As we move forward less of the income will come from GCC. Pakistan will be forced to become a normal trading nation to survive. Pakistan cannot survive on GCC alone. First because that source will begin to reduce and secondly because of our increasing population.

That will force Pakistan to develop a normal trading economy - not a rentier economy. And this will happen under Chinese influence. CPEC is the pointer to the future of Pakistan's emerging political economy. However this new political climate will entail Pakistanis to behave like businessmen. That means trade before ideaology.

As CPEC takes off more and more parts of the Pakistan's economy will become dependant on China. This will create interest groups within Pakistan who will eschew religious dogma and radicalism. The more CPEC takes off. The larger the size of the political economy that depends on it. The larger iot is means more influence that gopes against the mullah class.

Fine exampe of this is Bangladesh. The huge garment industry in that country that practically feeds mozst of the Banglas directly or indirectly depends on Western markets. That has built up a huge political economy in Bangladesh that depends on the Western order. It indirecty underwrites the secular forces in Bangladesh. If mullah parties win more influence Bangladesh would lose the garment industry. This has created linkages within Bangladesh that have vested interests to move toward secularism to curry favour with Western markets.

This is exactly what will happen in Pakistan. Over the next 20 years a huge part of Pakistan's political economy will become dependant on CPEC and the Chinese economy. This will create a huge vested group inside Pakistan which will act as a lobby for Chinese.

And we know Chinese are not exactly fond of religious obscurantism or mullahs. You won't see jamatis parties or mullah parties catching flights to Beijing. A new and entirely differant type of Pakistani will be seen catching flights to China.

The days of the West or GCC keeping Pakistan alive are numbered.

And if anybody has bothered to read the full CPEC policy document that lays out the thinking behind the $100 billion CPEC projects not one dollar is going on building a mosque or employing a mullah. Compare this with GCC money - much of that goes into Islamic schools, madaris or building mosques - Shah Faisel Mosque in Islamabad being a good example.

The CPEC policy document prepared by Chinese and Pakistani partners covers industry, roads, electricity generating stations, ports, beach hotels, tourist resorts on the coast etc. That is decidely a secular investment with secular goals and zero investment in religious fervour.

 

[RAMPAGE]

I am a firm believer in economics being a significant factor in influencing/shaping politics and society. In blunt terms the sources/processes that places your food on the table will end up have significant leverage over your views on politics and culture. Or he who pays calls the shots.

Pakistan has always been [even before 1947] a crude "parasite economy". Income is generated by simply tendering out a commodity. I can sum up Pakistan's economy thus-

1947-1970 ~ Aid from USA/West in exchange for renting Pakistan in anti USSR alliance.

1970-Present ~ Migrant labour export GCC. Renting Pakistan to GCC.
1980-1990 ~ Aid from USA/West in exchange for renting Pakistan in Afghan Jihad.
2001-2011 ~ Aid from USA/West in exchange for renting Pakistan in US project in Afghanistan

As you can see from 1947-1970 the Pakistani economy remained entirely dependant on US/Western aid. During this period our governments remained entirely beholden to the West and Ayub's administration that covered most of this period was either explicity secular or implicitly secular. The traditional reactionery mullahs were used against the left but were kept muzzled. This period is today seen as the golden years of Pakistan - a country that was tolerant and accepting of diversity.

However from 1970s onwards the political economy went through profound change. Increasing numbers of migrant workers went to the emerging GCC. Our educated class were bought out by petrodollars. Increasining our political economy became dependant on GCC money. That introduced GCC influence via wahabism. Bhutto kowtowing to Arab sheikhs in Lahore was manifestation of this change. The "Islamic ummah" songs began to take root. Underneath all this was the massive amount of GCC petrodollars flooding into Pakistan and buying out influence and our elite.

This process was consolidated during the Afghan jihad under General Zia. Although Pakistan got two shots of Western economic transfusion [1980/1990 under Zia and 2001/2011 under Musharaf] the renting of services to GCC has continued unabated from 1970. This has created a political economy that is dependant GCC. This has introduced massive amount of GCC influence as society has become radical; Most of our preachers are sponsored or see GCC as the inspiration. Even our political class are beholden to GCC rulers.

However the era of being able to live off by renting out to GCC is changing. As we move forward less of the income will come from GCC. Pakistan will be forced to become a normal trading nation to survive. Pakistan cannot survive on GCC alone. First because that source will begin to reduce and secondly because of our increasing population.

That will force Pakistan to develop a normal trading economy - not a rentier economy. And this will happen under Chinese influence. CPEC is the pointer to the future of Pakistan's emerging political economy. However this new political climate will entail Pakistanis to behave like businessmen. That means trade before ideaology.

As CPEC takes off more and more parts of the Pakistan's economy will become dependant on China. This will create interest groups within Pakistan who will eschew religious dogma and radicalism. The more CPEC takes off. The larger the size of the political economy that depends on it. The larger iot is means more influence that gopes against the mullah class.

Fine exampe of this is Bangladesh. The huge garment industry in that country that practically feeds mozst of the Banglas directly or indirectly depends on Western markets. That has built up a huge political economy in Bangladesh that depends on the Western order. It indirecty underwrites the secular forces in Bangladesh. If mullah parties win more influence Bangladesh would lose the garment industry. This has created linkages within Bangladesh that have vested interests to move toward secularism to curry favour with Western markets.

This is exactly what will happen in Pakistan. Over the next 20 years a huge part of Pakistan's political economy will become dependant on CPEC and the Chinese economy. This will create a huge vested group inside Pakistan which will act as a lobby for Chinese.

And we know Chinese are not exactly fond of religious obscurantism or mullahs. You won't see jamatis parties or mullah parties catching flights to Beijing. A new and entirely differant type of Pakistani will be seen catching flights to China.

The days of the West or GCC keeping Pakistan alive are numbered.

And if anybody has bothered to read the full CPEC policy document that lays out the thinking behind the $100 billion CPEC projects not one dollar is going on building a mosque or employing a mullah. Compare this with GCC money - much of that goes into Islamic schools, madaris or building mosques - Shah Faisel Mosque in Islamabad being a good example.

The CPEC policy document prepared by Chinese and Pakistani partners covers industry, roads, electricity generating stations, ports, beach hotels, tourist resorts on the coast etc. That is decidely a secular investment with secular goals and zero investment in religious fervour.

Very interesting reasoning; I appreciate the explanation. However, I think you should substitute the word aid with trade.

There are a couple of things I'd like to point out.

• For the foreseeable future, the US and Europe will continue to leverage their status as the biggest destination for Pakistani exports by influencing its domestic policy. The Chinese market is simply not big enough to be a suitable substitute. Bear in mind that the US and Europe are not in the business of imparting democratic and secular values. The US will continue to push Pakistan to play its role in safeguarding the Saudi regime and in doing so, safeguard US' interests in the Middle East.
• There are no reports which suggest that CPEC will create enough jobs to employ the domestic blue-collar workforce and the one currently employed by the GCC.

Although tenuous, there is reason to hope that the emerging educated and well-read cadre, aware of what it would take to survive in a world that is becoming increasingly cosmopolitan, might be able to hold its ground against forces that resist change. However, I am not too optimistic.

 

[xenon54 out]

Lets call the defenders of liberalism on PDF and laugh at how they advocate to bring such social problems of the western world to muslim land and want to push the degeneracy of secular liberalism down the throat of Muslims.

@The Sandman @Zibago @Kaptaan @xenon54 @Sliver @EgyptianAmerican @Philia @Vapnope @TheLahoriGuy @waleed3601 @Hell hound @PersonasNonGrata @Shorisrip @RoadRunner401 @madokafc @KediKesenFare

I think a way more problematic topic is the child/relative marriages and poligamy that are common practices in conservative societies.

Let's hear how you defend this and have a laugh all together.

 

[Luffy 500]

I don't need to advocate anything to any outsider dude it's non of my business how people from other Muslim majority countries want their countries to run so i also expect the same from them.

I'm a Pakistani and i will talk about Pakistanis for me my country and my country men comes first religion/cast second and i will advocate "Liberalism and Secularism" for my country, but i also respect the opinions of other Pakistanis which differs from mine i will advocate also for equal rights for every Pakistani. If any outsider have a problem with it than well i can't do much about it.

Is you pea sized brain incapable of grasping the fact that this thread has nothing to do with outsider insider non-sense. Anything & everything that concerns muslims in any part of the world is my business as a Muslim. I expect non-muslims like you to not unduly feel irritated by such innocuous threads. Incase you Did not notice , you as an individual neither represent nor rule any country so its logically NOT your place to tell me what's should & should not be my business. We are in a open public forum with members from many countries. I hope your snowflake self can first comprehend that and learn how to read the article before uttering non-sense and making a fool out of yourself.

you salty cuz you ain't getting any right

As expected noting of substance but simple trolling from a intellectually lobotomized human being.

Why not blame it on the Zionists,the US or the West in general,thats where this disease called ''secular liberalism'' came from,wouldnt you get more support for your case?

. Can't get what are trying to say here? did you read the article? its about the absurd level of discrepancies and incoherence that result from legislating laws based on the satanic inspired religion of Secular Liberalism.

I think a way more problematic topic is the child/relative marriages and poligamy that are common practices in conservative societies.

Let's hear how you defend this and have a laugh all together.

As a Muslim I do NOT consider polygamy problematic. Something that Allah(swt) in His divine Wisdom made permissible can NOT be problematic. As for child marriage it depends on what you mean by it. Is your notion of child marriage based on liberal European secular ethos or is it based on Islam? Arbitrary age restriction set by self-confused sex maniacs, adulterers & pedophiles in western parliaments does not make 14, 15, or 16 year old a child. If your are ok with free sex culture between teenagers and teen age pregnancies in the west i.e "children", I fail to see your contention with "child marriage". So tell me what you mean by child marriage and then we can talk (but do open another thread for that. This thread is about your religion's (secular liberalism) self-contradictory and harmful ethos that effect innocent lives when it mixes with politics and the state ).SO better NOT try derail the thread with your self-righteous notions of morality.

You should inform yourself that we muslims do NOT take our morality from your prophets like John Locke, Ataturk, Voltaire, Madison and Jefferson. We have the Greatest Human being to ever walk this earth - Prophet Muhammad (saw) who taught us about morality, right & wrong, good & evil. SO laugh all you want, the joke is on ignorant intellectually colonized people like you.

Yes. It does have a problem with "sex and alcohol". But all societies have social problems. And i am not defending "sex and alcohol" but placing things in context. Okay now place this problem of secular liberal socities in context.

* Does Communist one party authoritarian countries like China have a "sex and alcohol" problem? Yes it does.
* Does Bangladesh a putatively Muslim country have a problem with "endemic poverty, child sex, prostitution, abuse of the poor, crippling lack of health care, female abuse, crime"? Yes it does.
* Does the putative guardian of the "holy cities" of Islam Saudia Arabia have a problem with "abusing poor Banglas, screwing maids, jacking poor migrant workers, openly placing whites at higher level then muslim Banglas"? Yes it does.

And on, And on, And on ........

Does @Kaptaan have problem with being anti-islamic bigot? Yes he does.
Does @Kaptaan have a problem with comprehending basic English vernacular even though he is a bonafide brit? Yes he does.
Does @Kaptaan have a problem with nurturing a slave mentality? Yes he does.

And the list goes on. But this is neither a thread about KSA, Bengalis or your pathetic self's problem. This is about contradictions in the religion of secular liberalism and its harmful effects on society once its mixed with politics and the state. Since you are a missionary and a die hard fanatic cleric of this religion of secularism I thought you may have something to say in defense of the misguidance you follow and preach.

This has nothing to do with secularism/liberalism. What's considered rape and how being incapacitated by alcohol can affect consent is a purely judicial and individual problem.

This has nothing to do with liberalism? really? It seems the ulemas and faqih of your religion of secular liberalism mentioned in the article like David Osborne , Matthew Claughton and Professor P J Fitzgerald disagrees with your misinformed contention. Please do read the article . As an outsider to your religion, I will take the word of your ulemas and faqihs when trying to form a opinion on your religion (secular liberalism).

 

[The Sandman]

Is you pea sized brain

Showing your "Islamic teachings" by starting posts with personal attacks? Islam teaches patience and love fyi. Which you obv lacks completely.

Anything & everything that concerns muslims in any part of the world is my business as a Muslim.

When it comes to Pakistan i will not allow an "OUTSIDER" like you to comment what is good for my country and what isn't people like you only want to push Muslim majority countries centuries back we are just recovering from the damage not again.

I expect non-muslims like you

Ah so finally you're telling us who you really are a takfiri if i want to i can do the same to you but than it's a wrong thing for me to do personally. Anyway people like you and those who support you are not worth it you can only be good entertainers for a limited time than you people get annoying.

uttering non-sense and making a fool out of yourself.

Yes it's clear for everyone to see who's doing that.

I hope people around you knows what kind of a mindset and views you've you're a danger to people around you.

@EgyptianAmerican @Hell hound @Zibago @Azlan Haider so guys here we're 2nd time i was declared Kafir on the same thread! i wonder if there will be any punishment for these guys in religion?