Secular and Nationalist Jinnah Review

[I.R.A]

the same can be achieved in a secular state, too, no?

Regards

As I said the secular state has a body formed of Islamic and Quranic principles but a head painted infidel. The only difference is ......... in a secular state men are worthy of making their own laws without consulting to any Divine guidance, which in strict terms means denying sovereignty of ALLAH and submission to the ALL Mighty ......... Muslims cannot do that ....... secularism for me is a stolen ideology, only that the people from whom it was stolen are made to believe its kafir, with a little twist of own ...... so what harm does it bring if we submit and accept sovereignty of ALL Mighty and strive for development of humanity ..... which HE wants and wishes us to?

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@I.R.A

IRA mian,

I get your point. A Secular state is essentially an Islamic state minus God/Holy Quran/Islam. Then the best thing to do is that states with a Muslim majority population should have an Islamic state; while states with infidel majority should have a secular state. In due time, God willing of course, infidel majorities in such states would revert to Islam and we will be left with only Islamic states.

Regards

 

[I.R.A]

In due time, God willing of course, infidel majorities in such states would revert to Islam and we will be left with only Islamic states.

That's the ultimate goal and hidden agenda ......... of course

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@I.R.A

IRA mian,

Things could go the other way as well.

Anyways this is immaterial as we are all convinced that Islamic state and secular state are pretty much the same thing.

Regards

 

[I.R.A]

@I.R.A

IRA mian,

Things could go the other way as well.

Anyways this is immaterial as we are all convinced that Islamic state and secular state are pretty much the same thing.

Regards

When you have an Islamic state that is just, founded on moral principles, that takes prosperity of humanity as serious goal, takes care of its people irrespective of their religion, color, creed .......... I can assure you even the Hindus, Pagans, and infidels would fight to defend it. History has proven it too.

Secular state minus capitalism, exploitation of humanity and obviously the big stark difference of not submitting to ALL Mighty.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@I.R.A

IRA mian,

When you have an Islamic state that is just, founded on moral principles, that takes prosperity of humanity as serious goal, takes care of its people irrespective of their religion, color, creed .......... I can assure you even the Hindus, Pagans, and infidels would fight to defend it. History has proven it too.

Well said. Lets hope that your country takes up this experiment and comes up trumps. Then perhaps we will become Pakistan too.

Regards

 

[I.R.A]

Well said. Lets hope that your country takes up this experiment and comes up trumps. Then perhaps we will become Pakistan too.

Regards

Sir its not an experiment for my country ....... it was the original destiny of my country and vision of founding father of this country ........ unfortunately he didn't get enough time to make it a reality.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@I.R.A

IRA mian

Its not an experiment for my country ....... it was the original destiny of my country

I dunno, sir, whether it was the original destiny of your country, but it certainly seems to be the ultimate and final destiny of your country.

Regards

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir its not an experiment for my country ....... it was the original destiny of my country and vision of founding father of this country ........ unfortunately he didn't get enough time to make it a reality.

Some humble and friendly suggestions:

1. Never attack Russia by land (unless you are a general reporting to Chengis Khan);
2. Never attack Britain by sea (unless you are Danish and this is the 8th century, or you are Norman and this is the 11th century, or you are Dutch, and this is the 17th century);
3. Never debate @SoulSpokesman on Jinnah; we have tried (elsewhere) and failed.

 

[Desert Fox]

Jinnah wanted neither a secular Pakistan nor a theocratic one. Had he wanted a secular Pakistan, he would have never established the Department of Islamic Reconstruction.

The people who repaint Jinnah as a secular are being dishonest. Explain these sayings of Mr "secular" Jinnah.


1-"What more can one really expect than to see that this mighty land has now been brought under a rule, which is Islamic, Muslim rule, as a sovereign independent State."

2-"Whatever I have done, I did as a servant of Islam, and only tried to perform my duty and made every possible contribution within my power to help our Nation. . . We Musalmans believe in one God, one Book - the Holy Qur'an - and one Prophet. So we must stand united as one Nation. You know the old saying that in unity lies strength; united we stand, divided we fall."

3-"You are only voicing my sentiments and the sentiments of millions of Musalmans when you say that Pakistan should be based on sure foundations of social justice and Islamic socialism which emphasizes equality and brotherhood of man."

4-"There can . . . be only one lingua franca, that is, the language for inter-communication between the various provinces of the State, and that language should be Urdu and cannot be any other. The State language, therefore, must obviously be Urdu, a language that has been nurtured by a hundred million Muslims of this sub-continent, a language understood throughout the length and breadth of Pakistan and above all, a language which, more than any other provincial language, embodies the best that is in Islamic culture and Muslim tradition and nearest to the language used in other Islamic countries."

5-"If President Roosevelt, under the pressure of the powerful world Jewry, commits the blunder of forcing the British Government to do injustice to the Arabs in Palestine, it will set the whole Muslim world ablaze from one end to another. Grave wrongs had already been done to the Arabs. If the Jewish immigration is allowed to continue, I have no doubt that not only the Muslim League will revolt but the whole Muslim world will revolt."

6-"Pakistan is the premier Islamic State and the fifth largest in the world. . . The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of men, justice and fairplay to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case, Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State - to be ruled by priests with a divine mission."

7-"The Prophet (PBUH) was a great teacher. He was a great law-giver. He was a great statesman and he was a great Sovereign who ruled. No doubt, there are people who do not quite appreciate when we talk of Islam. . . Islam is not only a set of rituals, traditions and spiritual doctrines. Islam is a code for every Muslim which regulates his life and his conduct in even politics and economics and the like."

8-"Why this feeling of nervousness that the future constitution of Pakistan is going to be in conflict with Shariat Laws? . . . Islamic principles today are as applicable to life as they were 1,300 years ago. "

9-“I could not understand a section of people who deliberately wanted to create mischief and made a propaganda that the constitution of Pakistan would not be made on the basis of Shariat.”
@Desert Fox @Ocean

Following are the aims and objectives of the Department of Islamic Reconstruction which was established by Jinnah. https://documents.mx/education/aims...lamic-reconstruction-muhammad-ali-jinnah.html

Well put and those quotes of Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah prove that Pakistan was not intended to be a secular state.

Because if the founding father of Pakistan repeatedly used Islamic terminology, Islamic principles, and Islamic legacy as fundamental pillars of Pakistan how can anyone, in light of this, make the claim that Jinnah intended Pakistan to be secular?

Which secular country was created for a specific religious majority the way Pakistan was for a Muslim majority??

A secular state does not care which religious demographic is majority or minority because in a secular state religion and state are separate. But clearly to Jinnah Islam and Muslim majority was important which is why he intended Pakistan as the home of Muslim majority free from oppression of Hindu majority India. Therefore even Pakistan's foundation is religious and not secular.

@SoulSpokesman address the above.

 

[I.R.A]

Never debate @SoulSpokesman on Jinnah; we have tried (elsewhere) and failed.

Sir I am an insignificant minority, having a very different view of Jinnah ......... I don't have much to lose. Soul bai can keep his view of Jinnah but he will find answers to contradictions only in what I happen to have suggested. Otherwise this debate of Molana Jinnah Sahib and his excellency Mr Jinnah will never come to a conclusion .... like Iqbal, Jinnah is quoted..... both by Molana Sahib and Secular hazrat.

 

[Psychic]

Very valid point sir ........ but I haven't mentioned the details of who gets to govern and run the state affairs, the selection of governors would be a true democratic process, where governors would be elected based on their competence and not based their bank accounts and wealth. This state will be lead by elected governors and not the rulers.

Plus; Votes are weighed , not counted in an Islamic form of democracy which contradicts the principles of the Western democracy.
Unlike today where the votes of some one who just came from a mental asylum and an academia are considered equal.

the same can be achieved in a secular state, too, no?

There are a few conditions, for example;

• Khalifa must be a practicing Muslim.
• Khalifa and members of shura are elected on merit, not by the number of votes.
• Non- Muslims are exempt from conscription.
• Non Muslims pay jizya and Muslims pay Zakat.
• Economic system is interest free.
• Acts forbidden by Islam e.g consumption of alcohol, adultery, homosexuality, nudity etc are punishable.

The above mentioned criteria wont be met by a secular state.

Well put and those quotes of Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah prove that Pakistan was not intended to be a secular state.

Because if the founding father of Pakistan repeatedly used Islamic terminology, Islamic principles, and Islamic legacy as fundamental pillars of Pakistan how can anyone, in light of this, make the claim that Jinnah intended Pakistan to be secular?

Which secular country was created for a specific religious majority the way Pakistan was for a Muslim majority??

A secular state does not care which religious demographic is majority or minority because in a secular state religion and state are separate. But clearly to Jinnah Islam and Muslim majority was important which is why he intended Pakistan as the home of Muslim majority free from oppression of Hindu majority India. Therefore even Pakistan's foundation is religious and not secular.

@SoulSpokesman address the above.

Another false narrative which this tabqa is trying to shove down our throats is that we need to be secular if we want to progress. Laughable.
As if poverty, economic instability, crimes, lack of education etc will some how disappear automatically if we change the name of the country to Republic of Pakistan and legalize booze and homosexuality.
Actually I read a post a long time ago on pdf stating that if we want to progress, the first step would be to allow homosexuality in our society.

 

[I.R.A]

Plus; Votes are weighed , not counted in an Islamic form of democracy which contradicts the principles of the Western democracy.
Unlike today where the votes of some one who just came from a mental asylum and an academia are considered equal.

If we study our very recent senate elections, we can definitely find faults and flaws with the so called democratic process being practiced ....... and plus we can see the sorts of senators and law makers this process brings up to rule (not govern) us.

 

[Psychic]

If we study our very recent senate elections, we can definitely find faults and flaws with the so called democratic process being practiced ....... and plus we can see the sorts of senators and law makers this process brings up to rule (not govern) us.

Exactly.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir I am an insignificant minority, having a very different view of Jinnah ......... I don't have much to lose. Soul bai can keep his view of Jinnah but he will find answers to contradictions only in what I happen to have suggested. Otherwise this debate of Molana Jinnah Sahib and his excellency Mr Jinnah will never come to a conclusion .... like Iqbal, Jinnah is quoted..... both by Molana Sahib and Secular hazrat.

You, Sir, are by no means insignificant, and have shown an ability to take a nuanced position that immediately refreshes one's understanding of the subject. In this case, the question of Maulana Jinnah's relationship to HE Mr. Jinnah. I just adduced, by way of a friendly warning, your friend's past track record. For myself, I shall read both sets of arguments with pleasure, and, no doubt, to my benefit.