Second Hand F-16's for PAF

[Thorough Pro]

You wana make it, heavan?
No country has achived it yet

This is common sense. Just like out of my monthly salary I allocate funds for food, living (rent, utilities, ...), educatin, and health first, if anything leftover then I think of buying ammo. you probably spend the salary on ammo............

If that example is not enough do some research, don't go far off just compare the economy size and defence spending of Pakistan and India for the last 30 years in 5-year steps.

SPending specially on defence is directly proportional to your economy. If you can't understand that then one of us is on the wrong forum. Peace.

 

[krash]

This is common sense. Just like out of my monthly salary I allocate funds for food, living (rent, utilities, ...), educatin, and health first, if anything leftover then I think of buying ammo. you probably spend the salary on ammo............

If that example is not enough do some research, don't go far off just compare the economy size and defence spending of Pakistan and India for the last 30 years in 5-year steps.

SPending specially on defence is directly proportional to your economy. If you can't understand that then one of us is on the wrong forum. Peace.

Everything is subjective, every decision, every action. We rarely deal with absolutes in this world.

Imagine im living in the house next to your's, imagine I have a property dispute with you and imagine I own a rifle too. Now im pretty sure that id point that rifle towards you, threaten your kids a few times and ask for the said piece of land. So what would you have? I would skip a few meals, sleep a night or too on a hungry stomach and buy a pistol. But then things aren't ever this simple either or are they....?

The thing is, you and me, we'd rather point fingers at everyone else but our selves. The economy's in shambles because you and I made it so. I'd rather not leach off more life from the few remaining healthy organs to feed the ones which are rotten and chronically diseased. Instead I'd have them fixed first. Another PIA or BECO is not what we need. I give you a better solution; lets pay our bills and taxes.

 

[fatman17]

Everything is subjective, every decision, every action. We rarely deal with absolutes in this world.

Imagine im living in the house next to your's, imagine I have a property dispute with you and imagine I own a rifle too. Now im pretty sure that id point that rifle towards you, threaten your kids a few times and ask for the said piece of land. So what would you have? I would skip a few meals, sleep a night or too on a hungry stomach and buy a pistol. But then things aren't ever this simple either or are they....?

The thing is, you and me, we'd rather point fingers at everyone else but our selves. The economy's in shambles because you and I made it so. I'd rather not leach off more life from the few remaining healthy organs to feed the ones which are rotten and chronically diseased. Instead I'd have them fixed first. Another PIA or BECO is not what we need. I give you a better solution; lets pay our bills and taxes.

how so sir! please share the income-tax you have paid this year. i have paid PKR 1.8m in taxes. this does not include property tax etc. i may be wrong but i think i paid more taxes than AZ, NS etc. so dont go around telling me that i made the economy the way it is.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Everything is subjective, every decision, every action. We rarely deal with absolutes in this world.

Imagine im living in the house next to your's, imagine I have a property dispute with you and imagine I own a rifle too. Now im pretty sure that id point that rifle towards you, threaten your kids a few times and ask for the said piece of land. So what would you have? I would skip a few meals, sleep a night or too on a hungry stomach and buy a pistol. But then things aren't ever this simple either or are they....?

The thing is, you and me, we'd rather point fingers at everyone else but our selves. The economy's in shambles because you and I made it so. I'd rather not leach off more life from the few remaining healthy organs to feed the ones which are rotten and chronically diseased. Instead I'd have them fixed first. Another PIA or BECO is not what we need. I give you a better solution; lets pay our bills and taxes.

First off we are not discussing the cause or solution to our economy. The example I gave was to convey priority setting in response to his post saying "Strong defence - Strong Economy" whereas my pov is "Strong economy - Strong Defence"

What did you add to that discussion?

 

[Thorough Pro]

I have paid PKR 1.8m in taxes.

You should change your Id to "FAT ASAMI"

May Allah bless you with more so you contribute even more to the ex-checquer.

 

[batmannow]

Getting off from the topic is not my aim!
Comparing personal wealth & spendings is totaly a different issue & hving a strong defence is a different subject!
North korea, with all the sanctions in the world or cuba with all the sanctions in the world are the serious examples of stronger will & stronger defences!
With not much earnings in their books bt hving sufficiant defences in order ,both hve showen this world that strong defences are the key in this world of might is right!
Stronger economies like IRAQ , jaPaN, germany can be invaded at any time cause their defences weren't stronger enough to stop invasion on themselves.
Well that's my point of veiw ,if someone not agree its fine, let's move ahead & don't derail the thread!
F-16s were our beautyful past but we as nation need to move ahead with self-reliance & stop of bieng black-mailled just to get F-16s.

 

[DroneMailini]

The Increase in F-16 Fighter jets for Pakistan means, it will have to rely more on United States for it future needs, given the state of US Pakistan relations, It wont be a wise move. Further United States has not agreed to allow to manufacture even SPARE PARTS for their F-16 fighter jets. It is better if Pakistan invests in J-10 and china's fifth generation fighter aircraft.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Did we not upgrade our F16 fleet with new stuff and got 75 brand new JF thunders brand new

What good will it do to but used stuff

But if we can get another 45 for planes that are already C/D level why not

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

You wana make it, heavan?
No country has achived it yet , if you think of nowrway ,holland, or denmark yes they hve good education,better health systems but still they way behind in economy & defence & countries like US & russia still play a political pingpong with them !
If we think of germany, & japan yes they have good economy , better education & health but they are just stalite slaves when it comes to USA?
They only can pay whatever , whenever US wants?
Why?
Cause not strong defence or not hve any any right to defend themselves!
So well established economies & well established health & educational systems but still needs hve permission from USA on every major deceion they make regurding this world!
So without, strong & independent defence they are nothing in the world of USA ,RUSSIA,CHINA today.

France, italy , spain poland still way behind then those EU countries bt they are more valued customer to the world & US & NATO jst because they r stronger in defence!
We can think absolte ,heaven bt practicly its , might is right since day 1 in this world, & for might we need strong defence nothing else?

If pakistan hve 800 good fighter planes & 1 & half a million ground force, it will bring security & that security will bring peace & that peace is going to bring good ecomony!
Its all strats with strong defence!

isnt it better to built both together

 

[krash]

First off we are not discussing the cause or solution to our economy. The example I gave was to convey priority setting in response to his post saying "Strong defence - Strong Economy" whereas my pov is "Strong economy - Strong Defence"

What did you add to that discussion?

Neither am I. However your "priority settings" are what my post contests on, read it again.

how so sir! please share the income-tax you have paid this year. i have paid PKR 1.8m in taxes. this does not include property tax etc. i may be wrong but i think i paid more taxes than AZ, NS etc. so dont go around telling me that i made the economy the way it is.

'Outliers' good man. Our tax to GDP ratio, calculated in 2010-2011 was 8.5%......peanuts. Interestingly, who is responsible for AZ and NS not paying their taxes? Only one entity has the constitutional, legal and God given right to take the power away from these leeches and ironically its the only entity which hasn't done so, hasn't ever even tried, has in fact re-elected them every time. But some how it's still not our fault. AZ and NS paying less taxes than you is the point. We using it as an excuse to instead redeem ourselves is exactly the point. Ones who accept persecution are more responsible than the persecutor himself.

ps: There is more to it than tax my friend.

Lets move this discussion elsewhere before I piss off the mods.

 

[umair86pk]

Getting spares for F-16s is not an issue with over 3000 operational around the world there is a big black market to buy spare. Hell if Iran can keep its fleet of F-14s operational after 30 years of sanctions why the hell can't we have done it before during the 90s.

 

[sancho]

If you look at the configuration of what the PAF MLU's will be, you will notice that they will be better than their NATO AM/BM counterparts and superior in terms of radar performance to their USAF counterparts as well.
So in essence, they are made into Block 52's..
Now if you are discounting the potential of a F-16 Block 52 standard against any airforce..
I would disagree.. it is a a very potent aircraft.

It's not the F16s in general that I take as limited, but it's future potential in PAF, compared to what missiles and techs will be available from China, or in IAF.

Take radars for example, APG-68(V)9 puls doppler vs PESA or AESA in J10B, PESA and AESA radars in MKI, Rafale and most likely LCA MK2. That means the radar tech is hardly comparable with Mirage 2000s and Mig 29s, while J10B or JF 17 B3 offers more scope.

Same can be said about the AAMs, AIM9M, while IAF fighters will all have IR missiles with TVC soon and even China is developing missile in that directions. In BVR China soon will offer SD 10B, while IAF will even have Meteor and new R77s.

That's why I meant, the access to higher techs is easier for PAF through Chinese fighters, that doesn't mean the F16s are bad, but limited in operational (no compatible tankers) and future potential.
From what is known about J10B so far, I would opt for more JF 17s instead of F16s, they can be upgraded later to a higher tech level as the F16s and are cheap enough (be it to procure or to maintain) to add a few 5th gen fighter on top in future.

 

[SQ8]

It's not the F16s in general that I take as limited, but it's future potential in PAF, compared to what missiles and techs will be available from China, or in IAF.

Take radars for example, APG-68(V)9 puls doppler vs PESA or AESA in J10B, PESA and AESA radars in MKI, Rafale and most likely LCA MK2. That means the radar tech is hardly comparable with Mirage 2000s and Mig 29s, while J10B or JF 17 B3 offers more scope.

Same can be said about the AAMs, AIM9M, while IAF fighters will all have IR missiles with TVC soon and even China is developing missile in that directions. In BVR China soon will offer SD 10B, while IAF will even have Meteor and new R77s.

That's why I meant, the access to higher techs is easier for PAF through Chinese fighters, that doesn't mean the F16s are bad, but limited in operational (no compatible tankers) and future potential.
From what is known about J10B so far, I would opt for more JF 17s instead of F16s, they can be upgraded later to a higher tech level as the F16s and are cheap enough (be it to procure or to maintain) to add a few 5th gen fighter on top in future.

But they are also easier and quicker to integrate and will provide(as they have) an immediate boost to the capability of the PAF.
The whole point being, the F-16's provide a jump in the capability baseline for the PAF ASAP.
After which, the capability can then be taken up from that baseline.
So they wont represent the best that the PAF will have.. rather the least it can have.

 

[Storm Force]

If PAF buys AMERICAN supplied F16s or attempts to upgrade F16S with AMERICAN engineers then certainly the USA could well attempt to limit their USE to purely a defense purpose.

Americans will want to place INTEROPERABILITY comms ON THEIR HARDWARE...

So we are led to believe.

ADD to that constant USA sanctions options are a F16 MLU/52 really all that in a time frame beginning from 2014- 2030 ...

These next 15 years wil see a qauntum leap in technology in around Pakistani air space.

Making these F16s about as potent as the CURRENT mirage rose upgrade between 1995- 2010.

ie useful BUT NO GAME CHANGER

 

[Karl]

Pakistan would be better off going for Russian or Chinese fighters.