Scam-wary Army calls off Israeli missile deal

[sancho]

This is really so stupid.

I do understand that there can be accusations of corruption in single vendor deal but starting afresh will be so time consuming, some other ways must be found out or the the entire process must be shortened.

Exactly and to make it worse, what about NAG ATGM that we develop on our own? Shouldn't their be man portable versions being developed in the meantime as well? How does IA justify a huge procurement of ATGMs in future, when NAG and even HELINA will be available? And didn't they recently made a big order for Russian ATGMs? How come the Russians weren't in this competition?

IAs procurement policy is simply a big mess!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Exactly and to make it worse, what about NAG ATGM that we develop on our own? Shouldn't their be man portable versions being developed in the meantime as well? How does IA justify a huge procurement of ATGMs in future, when NAG and even HELINA will be available? And didn't they recently made a big order for Russian ATGMs? How come the Russians weren't in this competition?

IAs procurement policy is simply a big mess!

From what I heard of this competition, the Russians dropped out on technical grounds, the US (Javelins) couldn't comply with the ToT requirements that just left the Israelis and the SPIKE.



Don't know what a new competition will do if the same conditions apply. Hopefully the US will offer more ToT and the SPIKE can face off against the Javelin.

 

[Markus]

Exactly and to make it worse, what about NAG ATGM that we develop on our own? Shouldn't their be man portable versions being developed in the meantime as well? How does IA justify a huge procurement of ATGMs in future, when NAG and even HELINA will be available? And didn't they recently made a big order for Russian ATGMs? How come the Russians weren't in this competition?

IAs procurement policy is simply a big mess!

Indian big ticket procurements are all jinxed.

The ATGM deal is very important in the context of modernizing the anti-tank capabilities of our infantry battalions.

I don't know how many Konkurs we have or how effective they will be in any future conflict, but we need to expedite this thing.

 

[sancho]

From what I heard of this competition, the Russians dropped out on technical grounds, the US (Javelins) couldn't comply with the ToT requirements that just left the Israelis and the SPIKE.



Don't know what a new competition will do if the same conditions apply. Hopefully the US will offer more ToT and the SPIKE can face off against the Javelin.

What I also don't get is, we all know that the US don't share their techs the way we require it, so why do they go through the whole process of the competition, to finally find out what is already known? Why can't they ask for a clear quotation of the ToT and licence production arrangements in the RFP, to rule out all manufacturers that don't offer the required terms directly and before wasting more time?

 

[janon]

Exactly and to make it worse, what about NAG ATGM that we develop on our own? Shouldn't their be man portable versions being developed in the meantime as well? How does IA justify a huge procurement of ATGMs in future, when NAG and even HELINA will be available? And didn't they recently made a big order for Russian ATGMs? How come the Russians weren't in this competition?

IAs procurement policy is simply a big mess!

They tried, but couldn't come up with a man portable version that fit the IA's requirement. What they developed was too heavy. So for the man-portable ATGM requirement, they will have to buy from abroad.

What makes these delays and cancellations criminal is not just because the soldiers suffer, but also that by the time they retender and decide to buy, the prices would have gone up by a huge amount. Mark my words, when we eventually do buy man-portable ATGMs, the cost will be a lot higher than what was on offer now. The taxpayers as well as the soldiers on the ground are being cheated. The sad thing is that we cant even hold somebody responsible for this, because it is nobody's fault. It is the fault of the system itself.

 

[scarcry]

Are baniya log why tension. They do tech scan, find nothing better(which they won't)

List of anti-tank missiles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and come up with a ".....ehm...so we CHOOSE Spike"

Cong fears scam will make Modi bang it again.

 

[jha]

Good ... Very Good news... If this drama repeats one more time, I am sure some desi company will showcase its own ATGM ala Bofors. If 3-4 years delay means a home made product, then be it. IA can sure make do with Milans and Konkurs till then.

 

[Koovie]

Good ... Very Good news... If this drama repeats one more time, I am sure some desi company will showcase its own ATGM ala Bofors. If 3-4 years delay means a home made product, then be it. IA can sure make do with Milans and Konkurs till then.

How is it good for national security? As long as we can build them locally, I see no problem. The best ATGM has to prevail.

 

[jha]

How is it good for national security? As long as we can build them locally, I see no problem. The best ATGM has to prevail.

This "building them locally" makes them very very costly. Any company ( in this case Israeli) would demand a lot more money than off the shelf procurement. And I dont see any advantage in " building them locally" . BDL has been producing MILAN-2 since ages. Yet they have not improved a single thing. They are now pushing for license production of Milan-2T . By now them themselves should have been come up with next Gen. ATGM. And I am sure if the import option is closed, they will come eventually with help from DRDO and Private players just like OFB has. If we keep importing latest and "superior" stuff, we will always be the biggest buyer.

This is just my take on issue. Need not be true.

 

[halfilhal]

LAWL. Stop getting all your panties wet. IA/MOD don't care what upwards/downwards movement you are pulling on an online forum. India isn't going to war. Even if she was, these things will be bought off-shelf straightaway as and when the need arises. Until then, its desi chutiaapa all the way. Get used to it.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

we should have a FMS route with isreal

 

[sancho]

This "building them locally" makes them very very costly. Any company ( in this case Israeli) would demand a lot more money than off the shelf procurement. And I dont see any advantage in " building them locally" . BDL has been producing MILAN-2 since ages. Yet they have not improved a single thing. They are now pushing for license production of Milan-2T . By now them themselves should have been come up with next Gen. ATGM. And I am sure if the import option is closed, they will come eventually with help from DRDO and Private players just like OFB has. If we keep importing latest and "superior" stuff, we will always be the biggest buyer.

This is just my take on issue. Need not be true.

That's not the right way! Indian industry should develop ATGMs on their own and offer them in competition to foreign once. If the capable enough, they should be the prime option of course, but cancelling a deal because IA once again planned the competition poorly and then sit and wait with the hope that someday Indian industry will come up with something comparable, reduces national security!
Btw, keep producing Milan ATGMs is also foreign procurement and costs money.

 

[Bang Galore]

What I also don't get is, we all know that the US don't share their techs the way we require it, so why do they go through the whole process of the competition, to finally find out what is already known? Why can't they ask for a clear quotation of the ToT and licence production arrangements in the RFP, to rule out all manufacturers that don't offer the required terms directly and before wasting more time?

We still need to compare the U.S. offering with the others available. If the U.S. offering is head & shoulders above the others, then a limited direct purchase (without tot)may also be considered. If they are more at par with a slightly higher rating, then other options can be exercised. In any case, this relationship with the U.S. is an evolving one. We will get better understanding each other as we go along.

 

[jha]

That's not the right way! Indian industry should develop ATGMs on their own and offer them in competition to foreign once. If the capable enough, they should be the prime option of course, but cancelling a deal because IA once again planned the competition poorly and then sit and wait with the hope that someday Indian industry will come up with something comparable, reduces national security!
Btw, keep producing Milan ATGMs is also foreign procurement and costs money.

Not at all.... MoD must push DPSUs to collaborate with DRDO to come out with a comparable product. I am dead against importing anything if a comparable system ( even with slightly less range ) is available in few years. I am sure they can and will come up with Desi Spike. I dont see the urgency for so costly procurement when IA itself is cancelling the deals one after another. This buying the best available system must change Because there will always be a Abrams/Merkava available in the market for our Arjun.

 

[sancho]

We still need to compare the U.S. offering with the others available. If the U.S. offering is head & shoulders above the others, then a limited direct purchase (without tot)may also be considered. If they are more at par with a slightly higher rating, then other options can be exercised. In any case, this relationship with the U.S. is an evolving one. We will get better understanding each other as we go along.

No we don't! If the aim is a licence production deal under ToT and the reply to the RFP shows that they will not provide the necessary techs, they should be disqualified directly and not considered to the trials.
If we want a limited procurement, we can evaluate them seperately under different requirements, but that's another issue.
When we know that they don't fit to our RFP requirements, evaluating and negotiating is just a waste of time. The only advantage we have is, the have a bargaining chip during negotiations with the Israelis. However, it would have been much better to get the Russians into the competition as a second vendor, with the needed ToT than keeping the US. We could have reduced the price of the Israeli system and let them win, while we still could have made a follow order of the Konkurs ATGMs, after this competition. That would have saved a lot of time and money, but we still would have got what we wanted.

Similarly, if the F18SH and the F16IN was not suitable to the RFP requirement on ToT, they should have not been passed to the trials too, as simple as that!