Scam-wary Army calls off Israeli missile deal

[indian_foxhound]

I read the article.




I understand your army cancelled the deal, what I'm saying I am of the opinion even if they wanted to pursue the deal US would message Israel to not sell Spike ATGM to a country like India. US has to keep Pakistan happy, more so than India. You were never going to get Spike just like you were never going to get Javelin. Haven't you learned by now?

1st the deal was called off from indian side NOT from israel side. Secondly there is no infro or leak info that usa dont wants up to have or not happy with the deal. 3rd israel is readx till date to give us. So its your personal view which is nothing MORE THAN a BS.
Just the see your insecurity and how much you are happy. Its the threat, its your fear which made you happy

 

[Abingdonboy]

Whatever your opinion is I'm glad the deal is cancelled.

A temporary interlude, within the next 24-36 months a similar deal will be signed.

I read the article.




I understand your army cancelled the deal, what I'm saying I am of the opinion even if they wanted to pursue the deal US would message Israel to not sell Spike ATGM to a country like India. US has to keep Pakistan happy, more so than India. You were never going to get Spike just like you were never going to get Javelin. Haven't you learned by now?

+where was the US to keep Pakistan happy when Israel sold the most advanced AWACS to India?

 

[A1Kaid]

A temporary interlude, within the next 24-36 months a similar deal will be signed.



+where was the US to keep Pakistan happy when Israel sold the most advanced AWACS to India?

When US and Pakistan ties are strained effect is less, but Pakistan really should negotiate with US to put pressure on Israel on its weapons sale. After all Pakistan is key for US in Afghanistan.

 

[Bang Galore]

When US and Pakistan ties are strained effect is less, but Pakistan really should negotiate with US to put pressure on Israel on its weapons sale. After all Pakistan is key for US in Afghanistan.

You really should....

 

[sancho]

US has to keep Pakistan happy, more so than India. You were never going to get Spike just like you were never going to get Javelin. Haven't you learned by now?

So much for quality posts. That's wishful thinking to say it mildly, especially when the facts again prove you wrong!
First of all, SPIKE has no US parts, that's why the US can't deny the sale to India, like they did with the Phalcon AWACS system to China, or the EL 2052 AESA to India so far.
Moreover, the fact that the US today is offering India higher techs and weapons than they offer Pakistans forces, should tell you whom they really want to make happy.
Times have changed and so has the US policies. They still need Pakistan for the war on terror, but has no need to please you, since they basically do whatever they want and that even in Pakistan (drone strikes, attack on Bin Laden...), while Indias importance for them has dramatically increased in the last decade, since they need us today for way more important things. Once for their economy, becaus Indian civil and defence markets are now open for everyone and they can't afford to loose out here, especially with the high pressure of their arms lobbys.
Politically India has gained importance, because the US needs new partners to counter a new threat to their interests, China. With India being the main power in South Asia and the Indian Ocean, they can focus their defence strategy on East Asia and the Pacific. That's why the try everything to get us closer to them and why they are ready to sell us any weapon or tech, the problem for them is only, India is not a country that is dependent on them! We have several options and can demand more than other can and if we feel their weapons and conditions suits our requirements, we will buy them (P8I, C130J, C17, Apache...), but if they don't we have no problem in rejecting them too (Bell LUH, Sikorsky VIP, Boeing F18SH, Lockheed Martin F16IN), just like we did now with the Javelin. A luxury that you don't have at all, since you have to fight to get their latest techs somehow (AIM 120C5 for PAF, AIM 120D for IAF, AIM 9M for PAF, AIM 9X for IAF...).

 

[Abingdonboy]

When US and Pakistan ties are strained effect is less, but Pakistan really should negotiate with US to put pressure on Israel on its weapons sale. After all Pakistan is key for US in Afghanistan.

Please, yes Pakistan, for its own sake should do such things- doesn't mean it will happen at all. At a time when India is buying more and more from the US and Israel and India is growing economically and diplomatically I cannot see how anything Pakistan says will impact any Indo-US-Israeli defence ties.


Yes, if the US counted Pakistan as a genuine ally then maybe it would have some sway but the US sees Pakistan as a nessercary evil to deal with. They aren't going to risk ties with India for the sake of Pakistani ties.

 

[sancho]

Whatever your opinion is I'm glad the deal is cancelled.

Fair enough, since we both are free to have different opinons, but you are currently de-railing the thread based on personal claims, which as shown are factually wrong. So please, lets stop this here and stick to topic again!

 

[Screambowl]

scam pe scam scam pe scam, tamasha laga rakha hai. India without scam nahi chal sakta kya?

 

[janon]

Lol, the thread has demonstrated the worthlessness of titles on PDF. "How low, how little are the proud! How indigent the great!"

To everybody who thinks that this is a good development because it will give a chance for Indian indigenous industries to come up with an alternative - that's not going to happen. These are missiles we are talking about, not artillery shells or guns. In fact these are 3rd or 4th generation ATGMs, and no private industry in India has even developed a first generation one. In fact, other than DRDO, no company in India has any experience or knowledge base about missiles at all. Just because tata, reliance et al are private entities, does not make them magicians, that they can pull a missile out of a hat. There is a reason that only two alternatives exist in the world for this level of technology, and they are produced either by Rafael (spike) or by Raytheon and Lockheed Martin combined (Javelin). Even Britain and France are purchasing the Javelin, instead of developing their own. Russia and China have not been able to produce comparable technology. That should tell you something about the complexity involved. If it was so easy that a novice could do it, then Germany, Britain, France would all be making them.

Private industries may be better organized and more efficient than DRDO, but that doesn't mean that they can simply put together a team of engineers who can make a javelin in a few years. Just like they cannot make a fourth gen fighter aircraft magically in a few years. Technology and science are cumulative, you can only build from previous knowledge base. Not all technologies are like "information technology", where a few graduates with a few computers can start writing code. Making an aircraft or missile requires decades worth of know-how in metallurgy, propulsion, signal processing, aerodynamics, and a host of other hard, down to earth sciences.

Nobody in India or China has been able to make a modern jet engine so far. Making the propulsion system for a missile will be impossible for a private company with no prior experience. Not to mention the host of other things, like the seekers and sensors. Coming up with a second generation ATGM like milans (which the army currently uses) will be impossible for anybody other than DRDO in India. Why do you think that countries like the USA had to make first and second and third gen ATGMs before making fourth gen ones? Why did they not make fourth gen ATGMs in the 50s? Because technology is cumulative. You can only build upon previous accomplishments. Just like the Wright brothers could not have made an F-22 raptor, Tata or Reliance cannot make a spike or Javelin in three or four years from now. If defence research was open to private industries from 1947, then they may have been in a position to make a bid today.

In short, private industries are not magicians who can produce something by waving a wand. Missiles are not artillery shells, it is a completely different level of technological sophistication. If private companies in India are approached for this, asked to produce a 4th gen fire and forget ATGM, they would all decline. Just like they declined the offer to help in the development of LCA in the 80s, because they knew that they did not have the requisite expertise or experience to do it.

If we want a man portable ATGM in the same class as Javelin or spike in the next 3-4 years, we have only two options - javelin or spike. That is the harsh reality. Now DRDO with all its experience may be able to come up with something a little less sophisticated, maybe something in between the milans we have today and the javelin/spike we seek. But then we all know how dangerous it is to bank on DRDO, when there is an urgent requirement. Anyway they were given that chance, with the shoulder launched Nag, and what they came up with was underwhelming.

We WILL get spike or javelin eventually, for a much higher cost than what was on offer now, and at a much later date.

 

[A1Kaid]

So much for quality posts. That's wishful thinking to say it mildly, especially when the facts again prove you wrong!
First of all, SPIKE has no US parts, that's why the US can't deny the sale to India, like they did with the Phalcon AWACS system to China, or the EL 2052 AESA to India so far.
Moreover, the fact that the US today is offering India higher techs and weapons than they offer Pakistans forces, should tell you whom they really want to make happy.
Times have changed and so has the US policies. They still need Pakistan for the war on terror, but has no need to please you, since they basically do whatever they want and that even in Pakistan (drone strikes, attack on Bin Laden...), while Indias importance for them has dramatically increased in the last decade, since they need us today for way more important things. Once for their economy, becaus Indian civil and defence markets are now open for everyone and they can't afford to loose out here, especially with the high pressure of their arms lobbys.
Politically India has gained importance, because the US needs new partners to counter a new threat to their interests, China. With India being the main power in South Asia and the Indian Ocean, they can focus their defence strategy on East Asia and the Pacific. That's why the try everything to get us closer to them and why they are ready to sell us any weapon or tech, the problem for them is only, India is not a country that is dependent on them! We have several options and can demand more than other can and if we feel their weapons and conditions suits our requirements, we will buy them (P8I, C130J, C17, Apache...), but if they don't we have no problem in rejecting them too (Bell LUH, Sikorsky VIP, Boeing F18SH, Lockheed Martin F16IN), just like we did now with the Javelin. A luxury that you don't have at all, since you have to fight to get their latest techs somehow (AIM 120C5 for PAF, AIM 120D for IAF, AIM 9M for PAF, AIM 9X for IAF...).

US is just setting India up to be used to contain China, as several American Think Tanks noted. India is merely a pawn used by the west to counter Chinese influence in Asia. The fact that you think India is in some privilege class shows your inaccuracy. As far as US selling advance tech to India and not Pakistan, well they're two components to this everyone knows India is a sucker for defense hardware and will pay for overprice military hardware even double the price, the second component is political. As for Pakistan we know Obama administration isn't optimal for Pakistan and as soon as he exits as Republicans and come in we will begin to see a shift again, and then you'll the last 8 years of favorability go down the drain. The Democrats arm you and the Republicans will use you.


'US partnering with India to contain China' - Indian Express Mobile

Russia and the U.S. arm India and Vietnam to contain China’s rise | WAREYE

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-far-east/87484-us-partnering-india-contain-china.html


India is just being set up by world powers to contain China even though India denies it.

since they basically do whatever they want and that even in Pakistan (drone strikes, attack on Bin Laden...),

Basically you don't know the facts US conducts itself in accordance with their agreement and approval by the Pakistani Government. US sought Pakistan's approval before taking action.

 

[arp2041]

US is just setting India up to be used to contain China, as several American Think Tanks noted. India is merely a pawn used by the west to counter Chinese influence in Asia. The fact that you think India is in some privilege class shows your inaccuracy. As far as US selling advance tech to India and not Pakistan, well they're two components to this everyone knows India is a sucker for defense hardware and will pay for overprice military hardware even double the price, the second component is political. As for Pakistan we know Obama administration isn't optimal for Pakistan and as soon as he exits as Republicans and come in we will begin to see a shift again, and then you'll the last 8 years of favorability go down the drain.


'US partnering with India to contain China' - Indian Express Mobile

Russia and the U.S. arm India and Vietnam to contain China’s rise | WAREYE

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-far-east/87484-us-partnering-india-contain-china.html


India is just being set up by world powers to contain China even though India denies it.

Basically you don't know the facts US conducts itself in accordance with their agreement and approval by the Pakistani Government. US sought Pakistan's approval before taking action.

Sorry, but do you SERIOUSLY know what you are talking about??

I thought Republicans are more favorable to India than Democrats, remembers GW Bush who signed nuke deal with India??

 

[A1Kaid]

Sorry, but do you SERIOUSLY know what you are talking about??

I thought Republicans are more favorable to India than Democrats, remembers GW Bush who signed nuke deal with India??

Republicans traditionally have favored Pakistan, as far as civil nuclear deal with India that was one exception of Bush administration. Whole list of Republican Presidents can be named which favored Pakistan decisively over India. Democratic Party have shifted by Obama in favoring India the last 8 years but they may go back to being neutral or some adhoc position.

As far as me knowing what I'm talking about, well I know more US foreign relations history than you do so I think so.

 

[arp2041]

Republicans traditionally have favored Pakistan, as far as civil nuclear deal with India that was one exception of Bush administration. Whole list of Republican Presidents can be named which favored Pakistan decisively over India. Democratic Party have shifted by Obama in favoring India the last 8 years but they may go back to being neutral or some adhoc position.

As far as me knowing what I'm talking about, well I know more US foreign relations history than you do so I think so.

& wonder why the last two Presidents of US had to made EXCEPTIONS from Party line for India, esp. after 9/11, after which according to you, US needed Pakistan more than India b'coz of war going on in Afghanistan??

 

[MST]

& wonder why the last two Presidents of US had to made EXCEPTIONS from Party line for India, esp. after 9/11, after which according to you, US needed Pakistan more than India b'coz of war going on in Afghanistan??

He is mostly right Republicans have been mostly pro Pakistan - Nixon and Reagan. Most pro India were Democrats like JFK and Carter.

G W Bush is an exception. Mainly due to China. He would have done more pro India stuff lot earlier had he not got distracted by WOT. WOT meant he couldn't antagonize Pakistan for a long time.

 

[arp2041]

He is mostly right Republicans have been mostly pro Pakistan - Nixon and Reagan. Most pro India were Democrats like JFK and Carter.

G W Bush is an exception. Mainly due to China. He would have done more pro India stuff lot earlier had he not got distracted by WOT. WOT meant he couldn't antagonize Pakistan for a long time.

@MST mate, Republicans or Democrats, its a fact that since the time of Clinton, US has made a complete turn in it's policies towards India, they need a good partnership with a rising economic giant like India. You will see that it was Clinton who changed the complete approach towards India, Kargil was the first Indo-Pak war in which US took India's side than GW Bush made many Pro-India decisions than we have Mr. Obama, so now no matter who comes to office, India has become one of the most important nation for US esp. when they are threatened by a Rising China.

That doesn't mean Pakistan isn't important to US considering the WOT, but arguments of some saying that Pak is more Important than India seems absurd to say the least.