Saudisation of Pakisan

[Armstrong]

You are right -- and I think most of us would agree -- that Islam is being abused by certain people to push a particular agenda. You are also right that not all cultural customs of 7th century Arabia are applicable in the modern world. We also agree with @muse and others that curbing religious extremism has to be done.

The only difference between our positions -- other than the details of how to curb this extremism -- is that we believe curbing religious extremism will only be a stopgap solution if we don't go and cut the head of the snake (political supporters) also. We are also concerned that, if not done correctly and perceived as an attack on Islam, the campaign could backfire and help the extremists.

Not to mention we're humored when somehow our statements are extrapolated to situate them at an assessment that we never advocated to begin with !

Muslims & Arabs are synonymous - I can't remember where you actually said that !

 

[somebozo]

I'm sure it is; after all Irish Unity found a very extreme expression in terms of the IRA & the Neo-Nazis have been involved in quite a few nasty things !

Take the example of the Europol Report or what the FBI Database has come up with ! The first collected Data & observed that less than 1% of Terrorist attacks in Europe from '06 to '10 could be attributed to Islamic Extremism; similarly the the article posted below, which can be corroborated through the FBI Database, maintains that between '80 & '05 less than 6% of Terrorist attacks on US soil were committed by Muslims !

Here you go :

Updated Europol Data: Less Than 1% of Terrorist Attacks by Muslims | Islamophobia Today eNewspaper

Europol Report: All Terrorists are Muslims...Except the 99.6% that Aren't | loonwatch.com

All Terrorists are Muslims...Except the 94% that Aren't | loonwatch.com

I say again - I'm in no way condoning this or saying that a problem does not exist but only that our assessments are wholly superfluous instead of getting to the bottom of things.

This is completely failed logic by the likes of Anjem Chodhry and other self professed leaders of Ummah. Muslims merely make 1-2% of Europe and USA population however if statics are adjusted for population then one can speak more fairly. This is akin to saying that terrorism in Pakistan is conducted by the infidel kuffars because a Islam forbids suicide therefore the attacker has been disqualified from the band of Islam the moment he detonated his suicide vest. Therefore, we go back to square one and declare kuffars are terrorist. Pathetic self defeating attitude!

 

[SQ8]

I expected better from you.

Don't get me wrong, I am not for Saudisation; I am just trying to find arguments against it.
I am not opposing it, for the same reason I don't oppose the Taliban or the Mullah.

YES they are evil people and are wrong; but they are wrong because I left the field open for them. When I am too busy being a capitalist; there is little I can complain about other less important stuff.

Apologies.. but I still dont understand how you are linking my beliefs with Saudization and capitalism??
Seems all too disconnected.

 

[somebozo]

See, that is exactly the point.

Pre Islamic India was a mixture of a lot of cultures, and a deep imprint / richer traditions / borader practices than desert nomads.

YET

They rubbed off on us, rather than the otherway around. Correct ?

I want to understand the reason of this imparity.

Not sure where you get you history lessons but much of the pre-Islamic India was highly primitive as majority of civilization was concentration the Indus side of the continents. Multiple Islamic invasion by Mongols, Turks and Afghans introduced new strains of culture in India. The mass exodus of Persians into India upon the Islamic conquest of Persian empire introduced the dominant Persian strain of culture we see in India everyday today.

We are better off by following any one except the dessert Bedouins who are not known to create anything beneficial to humanity for last 5000 years.

 

[Developereo]

Not to mention we're humored when somehow our statements are extrapolated to situate them at an assessment that we never advocated to begin with !

Muslims & Arabs are synonymous - I can't remember where you actually said that !

It's a good exercise the gauge the validity of their approach.
If they need to resort to such misrepresentation, does it not indicate that their assumptions are invalid?

It shows a pathological hatred of all things Arab.

We must maintain the moderate approach -- neither fawning over Arabs nor demonizing them. Or Iranians or Hindus or Westerners.

 

[Amaa'n]

I'm sure it is; after all Irish Unity found a very extreme expression in terms of the IRA & the Neo-Nazis have been involved in quite a few nasty things !

Take the example of the Europol Report or what the FBI Database has come up with ! The first collected Data & observed that less than 1% of Terrorist attacks in Europe from '06 to '10 could be attributed to Islamic Extremism; similarly the the article posted below, which can be corroborated through the FBI Database, maintains that between '80 & '05 less than 6% of Terrorist attacks on US soil were committed by Muslims !

Here you go :

Updated Europol Data: Less Than 1% of Terrorist Attacks by Muslims | Islamophobia Today eNewspaper

Europol Report: All Terrorists are Muslims...Except the 99.6% that Aren't | loonwatch.com

All Terrorists are Muslims...Except the 94% that Aren't | loonwatch.com

I say again - I'm in no way condoning this or saying that a problem does not exist but only that our assessments are wholly superfluous instead of getting to the bottom of things.

You are right again on your views, but you are Talking about past, and the present, you are not looking at 3-5 years down the road with the problem at hand.....shall i say 'lets wait and watch' ?

 

[somebozo]

@somebozo, The things you claimed in your response from my study are not part of islam nor did i see evidence in koran unless you can respectfully point me to it. Circumcision is part of middleestern culture though most people in america and canada regardless of ethnicity get it due to less chance of contracting HIV(still not mandatory). What is this halal slaughter you refer too?, the only thing that is not halal is consuming swines flesh but other than that, there is no prohibition in consuming meat.

Disclaimer: I am not preaching my religious values but just learning everyones perspective so to be politically correct in case i offend someone faith.

Halal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Armstrong]

This is completely failed logic by the likes of Anjem Chodhry and other self professed leaders of Ummah. Muslims merely make 1-2% of Europe and USA population however if statics are adjusted for population then one can speak more fairly. This is akin to saying that terrorism in Pakistan is conducted by the infidel kuffars because a Islam forbids suicide therefore the attacker has been disqualified from the band of Islam the moment he detonated his suicide vest. Therefore, we go back to square one and declare kuffars are terrorist. Pathetic self defeating attitude!

Out of 2,139 attacks in Europe from '07 to '10 only 10 were committed by Muslims; yup I'm sure the Neo-Nazis, the Separatists & Other extremists are very much dwarfed by Islamic Extremism & disproportionately so !

 

[SQ8]

Btw..is one getting the linkback to page 7?
I keep getting sent back to it.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Apologies.. but I still dont understand how you are linking my beliefs with Saudization and capitalism??
Seems all too disconnected.

Maybe the state of our religion today is because we engulfed it in a foreign language and allowed only the natives of that language to deal with it.

I wonder if Islam might have been different if we the outside muslims could have had the same access to the arabic language and the scriptures.

Maybe we could have changed things, maybe we could have allowed more points of view than those of desert / tribal people ?

Maybe today, there would be no terrorists if we the people had kept regular presence in mosques and integrated them to be points of learning rather than the cancers they have become.

Probably we the people were too busy in other wordly affairs than to worry about mosques and madrassas; and maybe it was that void which allowed the Taliban ideology to take root.

Maybe we the people are getting a taste of the above mistake we made.

Not sure where you get you history lessons but much of the pre-Islamic India was highly primitive as majority of civilization was concentration the Indus side of the continents. Multiple Islamic invasion by Mongols, Turks and Afghans introduced new strains of culture in India. The mass exodus of Persians into India upon the Islamic conquest of Persian empire introduced the dominant Persian strain of culture we see in India everyday today.

We are better off by following any one except the dessert Bedouins who are not known to create anything beneficial to humanity for last 5000 years.

DESERT VS Fertile land.

Why can't you get it ?

Btw..is one getting the linkback to page 7?
I keep getting sent back to it.

Its a problem with firefox.

Use IE.

 

[Armstrong]

You are right again on your views, but you are Talking about past, and the present, you are not looking at 3-5 years down the road with the problem at hand.....shall i say 'lets wait and watch' ?

Dude, we've been hearing about this threat for more than a decade now - When is the problem going to manifest itself ?

Let us be rational about this - Yes there is a problem but, in the words of a quoted study released by researchers at Duke University and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, in the article, the terrorist threat posed by radicalized Muslim-Americans has been greatly exaggerated !

 

[muse]

You are right -- and I think most of us would agree -- that Islam is being abused by certain people to push a particular agenda. You are also right that not all cultural customs of 7th century Arabia are applicable in the modern world. We also agree with @muse and others that curbing religious extremism has to be done.

The only difference between our positions -- other than the details of how to curb this extremism -- is that we believe curbing religious extremism will only be a stopgap solution if we don't go and cut the head of the snake (political supporters) also. We are also concerned that, if not done correctly and perceived as an attack on Islam, the campaign could backfire and help the extremists.

Really I am amazed, Here we are asserting that "We" consider what the religious extremist and their armed organs are doing is an attack on Islam - even friends who are Hindu and Jewish and Christian, are saying this is an attack on Islam and yet we have to be worried about whether or not the extremist will think we are attacking Islam??

Remember they do not have the support in society that we do, it is they, who use violence and terror to impose their view on us, it is they, who seek to destroy Pakistan and Islam itself by defiling it, by associating it with terrorizing persons, by creating in the hearts of Muslims fear and revulsion -- and we have to be worried about whether they will think we are attacking Islam???

Friends, they know that they are in error, look at their methods, converting Masajid into armories, creating Madadress in to factories where young men and women are robbed of innocence and indoctrinated in hate filled ideas , it is they who organize in cells, it is they who rise in armed insurrection in a society that is open to their political action and which protects them -- It is they who declare us kafir, it is they that pronounce takfir upon us.

It is they who have left us no option but to oppose them, and by doing so, end them and liberate Muslims to exercise their conscience without fear from these extremists and their armed organs - be clear, unless we do them justice, they will destroy us, not just the state, not just the nation, but they will destroy Islam itself.

 

[SQ8]

Maybe the state of our religion today is because we engulfed it in a foreign language and allowed only the natives of that language to deal with it.

I wonder if Islam might have been different if we the outside muslims could have had the same access to the arabic language and the scriptures.

Maybe we could have changed things, maybe we could have allowed more points of view than those of desert / tribal people ?

Maybe today, there would be no terrorists if we the people had kept regular presence in mosques and integrated them to be points of learning rather than the cancers they have become.

Probably we the people were too busy in other wordly affairs than to worry about mosques and madrassas; and maybe it was that void which allowed the Taliban ideology to take root.

Maybe we the people are getting a taste of the above mistake we made.

Apart from the fact that Im not sure what you mean by the first sentence.. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
We, the people posting away here.. are the ones who left the religion in its place as it is today.
Had those of education had on a large scale bothered to actually read through the scriptures.. there would be much more counters to such ideologies.. and many more to guide everybody else and get them involved.

Maybe instead of an aversion to Arabic in some cases or blind repetition(as almost all children in Pakistan carry out in their early ages) ... it would have been better to make recitation( reading with meaning) common..
But there are all what-ifs.. and the only effort can be made is now.
Mine is to read and understand the Quran,Hadiath in Arabic along with every Tafseer I can get my hands on.. and Islamic History.. not just from one source.. but from many.
Only then can one claim to have authority over any statement on the subject..
Otherwise its only a single spectrum view .. be it Pro or Anti Arabization or Islam or whatever.

 

[Amaa'n]

@Armstrong, yar but did it not all started the same way in our part of the world? did it not started with the motive to implement Sharia and teachings of Islam in Afghanistan and Pakistan? even slogan of few extremists in this country is same to implement Sharia Law, Check page 1 - sharia bill by NS in 98

You tell me how did the educated guys ended up blowing themselves on 7/7 , I am not bothered what these studies and researches done by these Professors while sitting in there offices say, I am telling you what I have observed on the streets

 

[SQ8]

Remember they do not have the support in society that we do, it is they, who use violence and terror to impose their view on us, it is they, who seek to destroy Pakistan and Islam itself by defiling it, by associating it with terrorizing persons, by creating in the hearts of Muslims fear and revulsion -- and we have to be worried about whether they will think we are attacking Islam???

Agreed.. but there is problem.. and that is not whether they will perceive it as an attack on Islam. but whether they can coerce society through either fear or lack of knowledge of the attack on Islam.
A louder more vociferous view has a higher chance of success than anything else.. Hitler is proof of that.