Saudisation of Pakisan

[SQ8]

The Hindu scriptures were stipulated to be read and understood ONLY by the high caste Brahmins. Others were barred from doing so. ( By promise, Hindus can not be judged until God had sent a prophet to them)

This is the only answer I can give without compromising too much on time.
That barring does not exist in Islam.
the rest is based on beliefs and not logic.. and hence falls within a personal value and not one that may be debated for all perspectives. My belief in what Taraveeh does or not do.. has NOTHING to do with another muslims.
It is no longer the political aspect or social aspect.. but rather a personal spiritual one.

As an example.. look at this fellow.. he too is repeating the verses.. Would you consider him having a spiritual experience?

So the answer to that lies in your personal beliefs and experiences.
If Ive had experiences that convinced me that recitation of verses does solve problems.. then it is my belief based on MY experiences. I cannot recreate them for you nor can I convince you of their validity.

 

[indushek]

If you will read the thread, you will notice that myself, @Armstrong and others are specifically distancing ourselves from the Islam angle. We believe Pakistan's problems have political causes and political solutions. We do NOT want to obsess about Islam, leaving it instead as a personal choice for individuals. However, there is another school of thought @muse and @Hyperion which believes Islamism is the root of all Pakistan's problems. We believe religious extremism is only a symptom, like ethnic extremism or linguistic jingoism, of a deeper problem -- a political problem.

In a way both are right.

Problem with Islam is its exploitation by few and the rest remaining silent over this specific issue. A few people talking on internet or in the discussion panels of talk shows cannot address the ideological angle of these exploiters. The result is present for every one to see, the opposing view is being branded as one "opposing Islam" itself. Importantly when these exploiters have reached the stage of brazenly declaring the non believers and cleansing them, the action must move from talk shows to actions shows. However u can't have just one of the solution, while hacking through these inorganic material u should also soothe the 'sheep' by letting them know that their version is wrong.

Somebody was saying which makes far more sense, when these people want to practice the principle in a way done thousands of years ago, this is what we get. So make the people understand this.

1. wasnt the objective of taraweeh listening to quran ?

2. Do you suggest the Azan be called in Urdu so people can better understand it ?

3. What are your thoughts on translated worship ? I want to know the difference between a verse that is chanted ; and a verse that come from the heart.

Point in case:
The Hindu scriptures were stipulated to be read and understood ONLY by the high caste Brahmins. Others were barred from doing so. ( By promise, Hindus can not be judged until God had sent a prophet to them)

I also want you to analyze how Mullah people behave;
they keep talking to you, and when they want to turn the argument they quote some thing in Arabic. ( Not it's translation ; but the Arabic).

Why does that happen ?

Pardon me but nowhere were the 'others' barred from accessing the scriptures. Education wasn't that prevalent at that time as in today's sense and the Brahmins as they did the rituals had the compulsory duty of studying them. The Kshatriya was also versed in Vedas as he was the one ruling the people.

 

[Developereo]

I was pointed to the mere fact that Islamic practices did not emerge from the sky but later evolved around borrowing from other religions/civilizations. That weakens the claim of Islam as the final god-sent religion.

Islam freely admits that it is but the retelling of the message delivered by earlier prophets. Also, Islam is more than just the rituals.

 

[Amaa'n]

If you will read the thread, you will notice that myself, @Armstrong and others are specifically distancing ourselves from the Islam angle. We believe Pakistan's problems have political causes and political solutions. We do NOT want to obsess about Islam, leaving it instead as a personal choice for individuals. However, there is another school of thought @muse and @Hyperion which believes Islamism is the root of all Pakistan's problems. We believe religious extremism is only a symptom, like ethnic extremism or linguistic jingoism, of a deeper problem -- a political problem.

What if I tell you there are people who are making $300,000 in a go from banking fraud (it is on the rise in U.K), now with this money there financial position can get very strong, they do not need to to the path of extremism, they can start there own business, however still you find these people on the same path of Islam,

Good Governace (Check)
Regulation of Madrasas (Check)
Education (Check)
Money (Check)

the only thing which I can't find answer to is the version of Islam being preached......

 

[Sinnerman108]

This is the only answer I can give without compromising too much on time.
That barring does not exist in Islam.
the rest is based on beliefs and not logic.. and hence falls within a personal value and not one that may be debated for all perspectives. My belief in what Taraveeh does or not do.. has NOTHING to do with another muslims.
It is no longer the political aspect or social aspect.. but rather a personal spiritual one.

I expected better from you.

Don't get me wrong, I am not for Saudisation; I am just trying to find arguments against it.
I am not opposing it, for the same reason I don't oppose the Taliban or the Mullah.

YES they are evil people and are wrong; but they are wrong because I left the field open for them. When I am too busy being a capitalist; there is little I can complain about other less important stuff.

The Hindu scriptures were stipulated to be read and understood ONLY by the high caste Brahmins. Others were barred from doing so.

So on the contrary you are suggesting that if indeed the language of the scriptures was wide spread and every one equally accessed the books things could have been different ?

What they do AFTER that is their own business for sure; but getting to it is another question.

 

[Developereo]

In a way both are right.

Problem with Islam is its exploitation by few and the rest remaining silent over this specific issue. A few people talking on internet or in the discussion panels of talk shows cannot address the ideological angle of these exploiters. The result is present for every one to see, the opposing view is being branded as one "opposing Islam" itself. Importantly when these exploiters have reached the stage of brazenly declaring the non believers and cleansing them, the action must move from talk shows to actions shows. However u can't have just one of the solution, while hacking through these inorganic material u should also soothe the 'sheep' by letting them know that their version is wrong.

Somebody was saying which makes far more sense, when these people want to practice the principle in a way done thousands of years ago, this is what we get. So make the people understand this.

You are right -- and I think most of us would agree -- that Islam is being abused by certain people to push a particular agenda. You are also right that not all cultural customs of 7th century Arabia are applicable in the modern world. We also agree with @muse and others that curbing religious extremism has to be done.

The only difference between our positions -- other than the details of how to curb this extremism -- is that we believe curbing religious extremism will only be a stopgap solution if we don't go and cut the head of the snake (political supporters) also. We are also concerned that, if not done correctly and perceived as an attack on Islam, the campaign could backfire and help the extremists.

 

[somebozo]

Islam freely admits that it is but the retelling of the message delivered by earlier prophets. Also, Islam is more than just the rituals.

This is quite a weak claim because many of the preaching of Islam cannot be found even among Abrahamic religion. The only similary Islam bears among all Abrahamic religions is probably the belief on prophets, Semitic rituals like circumcision and halal slaughter and monotheistic nature of God. However still a very weak argument.

 

[muse]

Our friends and colleagues who have a defensive attitude, suggest that Pakistanis can never own their Islam and actually must not own their islam and that Islam can only be accessed via the language of God, that is to say arabic, but they argue that even that is not enough, the culture too must be absorbed - that is certainly one kind of religiosity, an arab centric one to be sure.

However, Muslim and arab are not synonymous - A Muslim is not an ethnicity and never will be, and the only identity a Muslim can have is being faithful, being in love - see that's the Faithful part, it's faithful in love, in love and with God - for this love there is no standard language, there is no standard ritual - There are amongst us those who wold seek a pluralistic society, and yet they do not seem to to be willing to grant that a pluralistic society has fundamentally different values that sustain it and all other, evn if they are "Baywatch" in the eyes of some.

 

[Sinnerman108]

A saudisation is indeed taking place and is creeping in gradually like a light fog gradually turning into treacherous mist... Saudisation is indeed a problem. We Pakistanis were once proud and independent. We didn't look up to the Saudis, Americans and (even) the Indians. We struggled and earned our right on our own feet.
Now we have imported Wahabism from Saudi Arabia and imported enlightened moderation (nothing outright wrong with the latter-only that it is a foreign solution to a local issue-we have suffered because of that) from USA.

I came to my country about 3-4 months ago seeking solace. It is sad that I found none here and am now stuck in a hospital. This is the fate of those who love the nation. Pakistan needs a local blend made particularly for us. We are independent... we have our own architecture, our own music and our various cultures (Pashtun, Sindhi, Potohari etc) make us a rich beautiful land.

May my nationalism survive these turbulent times.... because when an innocent suffers his views can change radically. Mine probably won't but I did not find solace in my own land. Will I find it anywhere? Pakistanis are the people tied between 2 cars being pulled in opposite directions. These two are terrorism (Wahabism) and USA... both are exerting a pressure upon us we may be incapable of bearing.

The only solution is an independent foreign policy. Fight the terrorists, fight the Taliban, if my patriotism is to be doubted I offer to join in... to fight side by side with our soldiers. (There is no test, no power that regulates or decides who loves or does not love his nation-God knows who gave people that right) I just say fight the TTP (Pakistani Taliban and terrorists) on our own terms and for Pakistan's sake stake a few commanders so that we can prove that we have been highly successful.

Qibla ...

When was Pakistan independent and Proud ?
Or are you referring to the independece and pride that Liaqat ali khan imported from the Americans ?

About our own local culture and architecture ... Which one are you referring to ?
The Persian, the Afghan or dare I say the Indian architecture ?

I want you to research; how much opposition did Alexander get from Persia to modern day India.

You will find a lot of answers there.

some people are leaders, and some are followers.

I also want you to see, why "Wahabi" terrorists are not roaming around in middle east and why did they run away to Pakistan?

There is potentially more money, and better opportunities here; so what caused them to be so easily assimilated in Pakistan ?
Maybe there was a gap / shortcoming already in our "culture" or "psyche" in general, which provided refuge to Terrorism ?

 

[indushek]

You are right -- and I think most of us would agree -- that Islam is being abused by certain people to push a particular agenda. You are also right that not all cultural customs of 7th century Arabia are applicable in the modern world. We also agree with @muse and others that curbing religious extremism has to be done.

The only difference between our positions -- other than the details of how to curb this extremism -- is that we believe curbing religious extremism will only be a stopgap solution if we don't go and cut the head of the snake (political supporters) also. We are also concerned that, if not done correctly and perceived as an attack on Islam, the campaign could backfire and help the extremists.

Thats what i meant by a bit of both short term for breathing space and long term for permanent cure. Only one of the two will certainly fail.

 

[somebozo]

Our friends and colleagues who have a defensive attitude, suggest that Pakistanis can never own their Islam and actually must not own their islam and that Islam can only be accessed via the language of God, that is to say arabic, but they argue that even that is not enough, the culture too must be absorbed - that is certainly one kind of religiosity, an arab centric one to be sure.

However, Muslim and arab are not synonymous - A Muslim is not an ethnicity and never will be, and the only identity a Muslim can have is being faithful, being in love - see that's the Faithful part, it's faithful in love, in love and with God - for this love there is no standard language, there is no standard ritual - There are amongst us those who wold seek a pluralistic society, and yet they do not seem to to be willing to grant that a pluralistic society has fundamentally different values that sustain it and all other, evn if they are "Baywatch" in the eyes of some.

This is why I believe in radically challenging the writ of holy-religion in the society and perhaps the first step should begin by banning the language followed by a mass book burning ceremony for heretic literature. The understanding of Islam should be limited to state interpreted and limited education. What the scholars wrote in 7,8,9,10,11, 12th century should be irrelevant today. Until we will not erase the problematic literature we will not be able to solve problems. The shell of Islam built around the nation of Pakistan needs to be cracked with a big sledge hammer. People need to incubate their critical thinking and being questioning the logic rather than a dumb society led like a donkey on leash!

 

[Armstrong]

@Armstrong yes but point is, this radicalism is turning into Extremism, and what I have seen in mosques around Birmingham is that same version of Islam is being preached as it is here, What started off as simple preaching towards islam is actually turning into a movement, "a call for Sharia" , I mentioned this earlier and mentioning again, during my short stay in U.K i came across people who fought in post 9/11 war and still call themselves Mujahideen.

I'm sure it is; after all Irish Unity found a very extreme expression in terms of the IRA & the Neo-Nazis have been involved in quite a few nasty things !

Take the example of the Europol Report or what the FBI Database has come up with ! The first collected Data & observed that less than 1% of Terrorist attacks in Europe from '06 to '10 could be attributed to Islamic Extremism; similarly the the article posted below, which can be corroborated through the FBI Database, maintains that between '80 & '05 less than 6% of Terrorist attacks on US soil were committed by Muslims !

Here you go :

Updated Europol Data: Less Than 1% of Terrorist Attacks by Muslims | Islamophobia Today eNewspaper

Europol Report: All Terrorists are Muslims...Except the 99.6% that Aren't | loonwatch.com

All Terrorists are Muslims...Except the 94% that Aren't | loonwatch.com

I say again - I'm in no way condoning this or saying that a problem does not exist but only that our assessments are wholly superfluous instead of getting to the bottom of things.

 

[somebozo]

Qibla ...

When was Pakistan independent and Proud ?
Or are you referring to the independece and pride that Liaqat ali khan imported from the Americans ?

About our own local culture and architecture ... Which one are you referring to ?
The Persian, the Afghan or dare I say the Indian architecture ?

I want you to research; how much opposition did Alexander get from Persia to modern day India.

You will find a lot of answers there.

some people are leaders, and some are followers.

I also want you to see, why "Wahabi" terrorists are not roaming around in middle east and why did they run away to Pakistan?

There is potentially more money, and better opportunities here; so what caused them to be so easily assimilated in Pakistan ?
Maybe there was a gap / shortcoming already in our "culture" or "psyche" in general, which provided refuge to Terrorism ?

The Afghans, Persian, Central Asians, Alexander, Indians and American all fare better in civilization than the Arabs and we should be better off by importing the influences directly if we need to rather than getting second hand accounts of these through so called Islamic civilization because lets face the reality there is no such thing called Arab civilization back in 7th century and much of the Islam evolved around borrowings from Persians, Indians, Romans, Semites and Egyptians.

 

[liontk]

This is quite a weak claim because many of the preaching of Islam cannot be found even among Abrahamic religion. The only similary Islam bears among all Abrahamic religions is probably the belief on prophets, Semitic rituals like circumcision and halal slaughter and monotheistic nature of God. However still a very weak argument.

@somebozo, The things you claimed in your response from my study are not part of islam nor did i see evidence in koran unless you can respectfully point me to it. Circumcision is part of middleestern culture though most people in america and canada regardless of ethnicity get it due to less chance of contracting HIV(still not mandatory). What is this halal slaughter you refer too?, the only thing that is not halal is consuming swines flesh but other than that, there is no prohibition in consuming meat.

Disclaimer: I am not preaching my religious values but just learning everyones perspective so to be politically correct in case i offend someone faith.

 

[Sinnerman108]

The Afghans, Persian, Central Asians, Alexander, Indians and American all fare better in civilization than the Arabs and we should be better off by importing the influences directly if we need to rather than getting second hand accounts of these through so called Islamic civilization because lets face the reality there is no such thing called Arab civilization back in 7th century and much of the Islam evolved around borrowings from Persians, Indians, Romans, Semites and Egyptians.

See, that is exactly the point.

Pre Islamic India was a mixture of a lot of cultures, and a deep imprint / richer traditions / borader practices than desert nomads.

YET

They rubbed off on us, rather than the otherway around. Correct ?

I want to understand the reason of this imparity.