Saudisation of Pakisan

[Sinnerman108]

@muse

out society is being gutted from the inside by persons who have chosen to take arms against against the state and society to destroy it. Their vehicle is an ideology that makes a mockery of Islam, it perverts Islam and yet many are persuaded that it is the "true"face of Islam.

I am asking you, why do you think the above part happens ?

We were people of a rich culture, of fertile lands, of thousand traditions, so why did we adopt the ways of nomads?

not because they have violence and guns ... this problem goes further back in history.

Why is our society so easily being gutted from the inside ? why couldn't it repel or resist ?

We are arguing whether they are redeemable or not, some of us wish to go soft and slow with them, others (myself included) argue that it is because we have been soft and slow with them that we are in the situation we are in today.

Maybe it can argued that some people couldn't get to the root of the problem and decided to offer too many half cooked solutions ?

What is Pakistan, What is Islam and What does it mean to be Muslim -

This is what we have to define, and this is where redemption is.

 

[muse]

That's not what I said. I said if the general population believe that we are attacking Islam -- and the extremists will push that perception -- then it will backfire on us.

Why are you so eager to give the general population to the extremists? The general population has seen the extremist kill more than 35,000 of their kith and kin, you think they are on the side of the extremist?-- The general population is waiting to see, like all the external players, whether the state will rise to save itself and the nation and if not then that population will have to make "accommodations' to save itself.

 

[somebozo]

Maybe the state of our religion today is because we engulfed it in a foreign language and allowed only the natives of that language to deal with it.

Likewise all imperialistic religions Islam has been a game of few nobles or else the Khalifas, Sultans, Emirs would have lost grip on their power.

I wonder if Islam might have been different if we the outside muslims could have had the same access to the arabic language and the scriptures.

in any conflict the majority will play neutral and the won't give a fuq beyond securing their bread and butter. While years of Chrisitnaity bought English language and European customs to many parts of the world, Islam has failed to bolster any linguistic propagation which itself speaks of disinterests by its subject. Only the hardcore fanatics left positions of taking charge took the burden of understanding holy lingua franca.

Maybe we could have changed things, maybe we could have allowed more points of view than those of desert / tribal people ?

Maybe today, there would be no terrorists if we the people had kept regular presence in mosques and integrated them to be points of learning rather than the cancers they have become.

School, colleges and universities serve the same purpose today and we would be better of if we built many of them rather than letting foreign donors spring more mosques than the worshipers in the country. Tying education and community services to a place of worship itself is the cancer of society because that limits the benefits to a specific followers / class of people and overtime will create fragmentation of society very much Pakistan is already faced today. Terrorism lives at the code of any imperialistic or fascist doctrine because there is no other way to subdue the majority. Islamic history after all is not a holy cow.

Probably we the people were too busy in other wordly affairs than to worry about mosques and madrassas; and maybe it was that void which allowed the Taliban ideology to take root.

No the people particularly the politicians and army were too busy nurturing the next generation holy-warriors which led to today's disaster.

DESERT VS Fertile land.

Why can't you get it ?

The caste based agarian society kept a small minority of powerful elite over a large majority of defenseless peasants. Read some historical accords will reveal how easy it was for some of the invading armies to divert away from the forces of Kings and Maharajas and turn their swords towards defenseless population and loot the booty with much ease. Out of 400-500 Kingdoms on Indian subcontinent, very few fared well in resistance against the invading armies. This is why India ended up with 1000 year history of colonialism.

 

[Bhairava]

A million % correct... It is the context of a different age that is being carried too far in a different age... Wish more people understood it and wish God had a mode to clarify what he meant!

Just out of curiosity -

Isnt what God commands supposed to transcend time ? Then why should we look into the context of that age ?

@Hyperion

 

[somebozo]

That's not what I said. I said if the general population believe that we are attacking Islam -- and the extremists will push that perception -- then it will backfire on us.

The general population should see the religion attacking them and not vice versa. Like all imperial religions and fascist doctrines, Islam needs a constant source of funding and an enemy to hate for survival. The two has to be encountered with education, once people are able to see behind the facade religion will become limited to ceremonial presence only.

 

[Armstrong]

yar you took my point in a wrong direction, i think it was mistake at my end for not explaining it properly......I was talking about radicalism, extremism of islam in Europe just to make my point and give you an example that good governac and regulative authority cannot on its own stop people from getting radicalised and extremist. It is due to the fact that what they are being preached, I have been there and seen that. Same thing is being done in Pakistan, and it is one of the root causes. if we want solution we need to cut on this

I disagree I think that in the absence of good governance & regulation do these things get the space to express themselves ! Had the UK Government been regulating the Mosques & as those charged with governance built up a consensus on what is going to be distributed therein, what syllabus would be taught there & where are they getting or sending their funds to, who'd be preaching all that bile ? No one...! Who'd get radicalized ? No one...!

It the same as saying you can say whatever the heck you want to say even if its hate speech & then exclaiming - Wow...why is there a spike in racism against Black People in the UK ?

Try to understand that; in our situation thats been perpetuated by the security dynamic we find ourselves in & an exponentially more atrocious State of Governance & No Regulation !

By the way its the same reason why you've got Separatists in Spanish Basque Country demanding secession from Spain or elsewhere in Europe or why you had the IRA wreak havoc during the 'Troubles' !

But this is the same across socio-economic-political or religious belief systems; we've got numerous examples of Socialism being proselytized at the back of a gun. Does that in the remotest way imply that Socialism, which in my opinion is an absolutely fascinating & fair socio-economic theory, a violent belief system ?

So again I'll say this - If you Govern badly & give them the space to build up their narrative, they're bound to exploit this situation to the fullest; but we know that 'they' can take any form or any ideology for that matter - its the mindset thats common - We disagree with you...in fact we disagree with you violently so !

Thats whats causing problems & that can only exist if those charged with Governance aren't doing anything about it !

Plus the dynamics of Europe & Pakistan are pretty different; certain other circumstances come into play over there that are unique to Europe just as certain circumstances are unique to the mess we find ourselves in !

 

[muse]

@muse



I am asking you, why do you think the above part happens ? We were people of a rich culture, of fertile lands, of thousand traditions, so why did we adopt the ways of nomads? .

My take, is that we lost confidence in ourselves --- All the lies we told ourselves of our greet strength, turned to be a disaster for us, and then the economy collapsed under the nationalization of the PPP, the Soviet Invasion and the opportunity created for large numbers of previously under privileged sections of our society to work in Saudi Arabia and of course ISLAMIZATION - at first it was just an expediency, just a cover for Zia's government, and then in typical fashion , we lost control of or own creation, the Saudi at the same time pumped in huge monies in to the madressah system, in two decades they matched our nuclear commitment to them, the Wahabis solidified their investment by creating wahabis in Pakistan .

 

[somebozo]

My take, is that we lost confidence in ourselves --- All the lies we told ourselves of our greet strength, turned to be a disaster for us, and then the economy collapsed under the nationalization of the PPP, the Soviet Invasion and the opportunity created for large numbers of previously under privileged sections of our society to work in Saudi Arabia and of course ISLAMIZATION - at first it was just an expediency, just a cover for Zia's government, and then in typical fashion , we lost control of or own creation, the Saudi at the same time pumped in huge monies in to the madressah system, in two decades they matched our nuclear commitment to them, the Wahabis solidified their investment by creating wahabis in Pakistan .

Lets stop blaming Saudi's for all ills because then we are progressing from one extreme of blaming the evil yindoos, joos and zionist to blaming the Arabs and Saudis. We created the ripe ground for such policies to foster and attract investments just as we could foster good investor confidence to attract investments in our infrastructure, industry and power. It is pure-play of economics nothing else. We did the right thing for the wrong cause - rather than attracting investments for factories, schools and universities we attracted them for madrassashs & Mosque hoping they would be good for the society. A large number of PA, Zia and PPP cronies made massive kickbacks in these money laundering rings and today enjoy their life of comfort in West.

Instead of teaching our student "You the Pakistani's are people of great heritage and our belief in our abilities to build Pakistan into a great nation should be unshakable. Only tolerance & multiculturalism can build the harmony needed for progressing forward" we taught them a doctored version of perverted middle-eastern history, great (non existent) Islamic civilization, Islamic brotherhood, the history Ohh I See summit in Lahore, Pan-Islamism, the doctrines of holy war and God is with the righteous BS.

 

[Developereo]

Why are you so eager to give the general population to the extremists? The general population has seen the extremist kill more than 35,000 of their kith and kin, you think they are on the side of the extremist?-- The general population is waiting to see, like all the external players, whether the state will rise to save itself and the nation and if not then that population will have to make "accommodations' to save itself.

The general public doesn't like the extremists but they also don't like their religion and traditions trashed. We have to use common sense and understand how ordinary people behave. As I wrote earlier, many people are already apprehensive about the encroachment of global homogeneity upon their traditional culture. That includes local culture, not just Islam.

The general population should see the religion attacking them and not vice versa. Like all imperial religions and fascist doctrines, Islam needs a constant source of funding and an enemy to hate for survival. The two has to be encountered with education, once people are able to see behind the facade religion will become limited to ceremonial presence only.

The general public is not going to become atheists. Let's be realistic if we want to solve this problem.

 

[somebozo]

The general public doesn't like the extremists but they also don't like their religion and traditions trashed. We have to use common sense and understand how ordinary people behave. As I wrote earlier, many people are already apprehensive about the encroachment of global homogeneity upon their traditional culture. That includes local culture, not just Islam.



The general public is not going to become atheists. Let's be realistic if we want to solve this problem.

Thats because of the taboo's bred by the government through systematic abuse of education system and media. nothing else. Indian and Afghan ideological aggression towards Pakistan has never been concerned with civility rather we responded by opening the society mullahs for preach ghazwa e hind and ghazwa e kabul. Jinnah was a lawyer not a politicians, he excelled at wining his case but faltered in building the nation - as evident by his confusion and appeasement to various faction. The subsequent government trying to use a mix of religion and anti-India sentiments for bolstering their own popularity turned the founding father into God's viceroy on earth rather than detailing his elaborate work and effort in creation of Pakistan - the end result gave birth to "Mamlikat he Khudadad" concept therefore there is general lack of appreciation by the society towards our own heritage and a fascination with alien ideologies.

Even the founding principle of the father of the nation were changed from Unity, Faith and Dicipline to Pakistan ka mtlb kya la ilaha ha illalah.

Well these la illaha illlaha chanting crowd has done a great service to humanity in Afghanistan!

 

[muse]

The general public doesn't like the extremists but they also don't like their religion and traditions trashed. We have to use common sense and understand how ordinary people behave. As I wrote earlier, many people are already apprehensive about the encroachment of global homogeneity upon their traditional culture. That includes local culture, not just Islam.

The general public is not going to become atheists. Let's be realistic if we want to solve this problem.

So you think we are suggesting trashing religion and tradition and that we are atheists? Are all traditions worth keeping?? Do we really want our mothers to share their marital bed with 3 other women? Do we want our prepubescent sisters married off to elderly men?? Does one become an atheist for asking this question? Did we have this multiple wives business in Ayub's time? One time you argue "Islamic culture" when that will not carry the day you say, local culture - you seek to create an ought from an is

 

[Hyperion]

@muse @somebozo, I think both of you, along with myself need to rest for 3 to 5 more years. I feel as if there are more depths of misery that Pakistan's public wants to experience before it's either time to wake up, or perish. Let's wait for that. There is going to be a solution, but the timing is still not ripe. More blood needs to be spilt before whatever remains of their collective consciences wakes up.

 

[Armstrong]

@muse @somebozo, I think both of you, along with myself need to rest for 3 to 5 more years. I feel as if there are more depths of misery that Pakistan's public wants to experience before it's either time to wake up, or perish. Let's wait for that. There is going to be a solution, but the timing is still not ripe. More blood needs to be spilt before whatever remains of their collective consciences wakes up.

Oh Shut Up You - Saying all of that from the comfy confines of your villa overlooking Topkapi Palace !

 

[muse]

Well elections are coming in a matter of months - lest see if we are ready or not and I hope that when we do become ready that there will be a Pakistan left to save. Thank you everyone who participated and read on this thread - first of all because it was even possible to have this conversation and secondly becae of the quality of the ideas and the civility with which they wee expressed.

 

[Hyperion]

Allah loves me... what can I say

Now check my deflection:

Pakistanis instead of worrying about terrorism and conspiracy theories, should worry more about the projected electricity shortfall, in the coming 5 years..... which option do you think will solve it:

1) Diesel powered generators (no money to buy)
2) Coal powered (no money to buy)
3) Nuclear (no one would sell)
4) Allah is gonna fix it.

Well, how short sighted have people of my nation become. Don't blame any political party or "waderaz" for it. When there is no peace, there will be no business either. Is it that difficult to understand?

Oh Shut Up You - Saying all of that from the comfy confines of your villa overlooking Topkapi Palace !