SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[MastanKhan]

i think u need burnol

spoken like a true 17 years old. It is better to learn than to retort.

 

[krash]

i think u need burnol

Tell us this, when have the Americans not fielded the most potent aircraft?

 

[mike2000 is back]

Sir,

This forum is read worldwide---. There are so many professionals over here so please avail this opportunity and listen and learn----and please don't comment on things that you don't know and don't understand about.

It is not good to look ignorant.

F35 is not designed to get into a dog fight with an F16----.

Just remember---whatever negative you hear about an American product---it is a smoke screen.

Its funny that people think the U.S can build the worlds most sophisticated and only operational fifth generation fighter jet F-22 over a decade ago and yet its latest stealth fighter is a junk.? Makes no sense at all. Lmao.

 

[Pindi Boy]

spoken like a true 17 years old. It is better to learn than to retort.

yaeh thats true am really 17 years old so whats wrong why are u favouring crap f 35 ????

 

[Djinn]

Tell us this, when have the Americans not fielded the most potent aircraft?

On the contrary other than subjective assumptions & assessments.......Do tell me which International benchmarks determine that US made aircraft's are superior to others?

 

[Viper0011.]

On the contrary other than subjective assumptions & assessments.......Do tell me which International benchmarks determine that US made aircraft's are superior to others?

In the modern history, the US jets have gone against a range of Russian weapon systems....the record speaks for itself. Whether it was Iraq in 1991 and Iraqi Migs fought Saudi and Nato -15's, or the Russian Migs fighting -16's back in the 1980's through Pakistan's air force, Syrian and Egyptian Migs vs. the Israeli jets during multiple conflicts, or the Russian and British jets against the F-86 and F-104 during 1965 and 1971 wars between India and Pakistan........
I don't know what's more credible about a fighter jet's performance other than a destroyed enemy jet!!!!

 

[Djinn]

In the modern history, the US jets have gone against a range of Russian weapon systems....the record speaks for itself. Whether it was Iraq in 1991 and Iraqi Migs fought Saudi and Nato -15's, or the Russian Migs fighting -16's back in the 1980's through Pakistan's air force, Syrian and Egyptian Migs vs. the Israeli jets during multiple conflicts, or the Russian and British jets against the F-86 and F-104 during 1965 and 1971 wars between India and Pakistan........
I don't know what's more credible about a fighter jet's performance other than a destroyed enemy jet!!!!

Please mention which MIG's went up against American aircraft's? Also American competitors are not Russians alone. Again all i sense is "if it's American it's best because its battle proven against Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya" Speaking of modern times i can quote examples were American state of the art "STEALTHY" f-22 lost to Russian SU-30. American report on j-10 is also well circulated one, so again do tell me..........How do we ascertain that American jets are the most superior.

 

[Ultima Thule]

yaeh thats true am really 17 years old so whats wrong why are u favouring crap f 35 ????

Use the commonsense you think F-35 is crap then why they spending billions of $ it is most electronically advance plane of the world use your brain Miss you are acting like a 12 year old girl

 

[Viper0011.]

Please mention which MIG's went up against American aircraft's? Also American competitors are not Russians alone. Again all i sense is "if it's American it's best because its battle proven against Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya" Speaking of modern times i can quote examples were American state of the art "STEALTHY" f-22 lost to Russian SU-30. American report on j-10 is also well circulated one, so again do tell me..........How do we ascertain that American jets are the most superior.

Either you have NO clue, or you are just silly questioning stuff that you have NO idea about !!!! How about you do some research and learn for yourself before just wasting others time.

Also, I'd LOVE to see where the -22 lost to SU-30 or ANY Russian jet even in a fun and simulated combat. Do share details with me. The only time so far, anyone was able to get a lock onto a -22 was an EFT, at very close range in dog fighting and that was also an IFR lock. Not through its AESA (apparently even the AESA's can't see a -22 when its flying right in front of the EFT and the pilot can visually see it and lock on it through IFR). Also remember, even in this scenario, the -22 isn't a dog fighter. I'd be VERY surprise if even 1% of the -22's ever see their enemies withing 2-3 miles!!

Here, read up direct Israeli air battle with the Russians (not Arabs flying plans, but the Russian pilots flying Mig-21's): Ambush Over the Desert Israel AF VS Soviet AF

Here are some recorded encounters during the 91's Gulf war:
17 January 1991
USAF F-15C vs. IRAF MiG-29
The first air-air kills of the war occurred when two USAF F-15Cs shot down two Iraqi MiG-29s.[2]
USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF Mirage F1s
Later on the same night, an F-15C scored a double-kill against two Mirages with AIM-7 missiles. His wingman scored another kill on a third Mirage F1, for a total of three kills in the dogfight.[2]

USN F/A-18s vs. IRAF MiG-25s
On the first night of the war, two F/A-18s from the carrier USS Saratoga were flying outside of Baghdad when two Iraqi MiG-25PDs interceptors from the 96th Squadron engaged them. In the beyond-visual-range (BVR) kill, one of the Iraqi MiGs piloted by Lieutenant Colonel Zuhair Dawood, fired an R-40 missile, shooting down one of the F/A-18's as it was travelling Mach 0.92. The pilot, Lieutenant Commander Scott Speicher, was killed. It is widely believed he died upon the impact of the missile.[2]
USAF F-111s vs. IRAF MiG-23
An Iraqi MiG-23 fired a R-24T missile at a F-111 on a bombing run and scored a hit, although the bomber made it safely back to base. Another similar incident occurred with the same Iraqi interceptor several minutes later, this F-111 also made it back to base despite the severe damage to the aircraft. This is Iraq's only success of the Persian Gulf War using MiG-23s.[4]

19 January 1991
USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF MiG-25s
In a brief dogfight, two F-15Cs engaged and shot down two Iraqi MiG-25s attempting to engage them, both using AIM-7 missiles.[2][3] One was destroyed by Captain Rick Tuleni and the second by Captain Larry Pitts

6 February 1991
USAF F-15C vs. IRAF Su-25s
A F-15C spots two Iraqi Su-25s and gives chase, locking on, and shooting down both planes with AIM-9 missiles.[2]


27 December 1992
USAF F-16 vs. IRAF MiG-25
A MiG-25 crossed the no-fly zone and an F-16D shot it down with an AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. It is the first kill with an AIM-120, and also the first USAF F-16 kill.[11]

.

 

[In arduis fidelis]

yaeh thats true am really 17 years old so whats wrong why are u favouring crap f 35 ????

Boy a friendly advice just lay low for few days observe the forum then start commenting.You will thank me later for this.

 

[Syed Hussain]

Its funny that people think the U.S can build the worlds most sophisticated and only operational fifth generation fighter jet F-22 over a decade ago and yet its latest stealth fighter is a junk.? Makes no sense at all. Lmao.

Because F-22 was not an "export product". No doubt F-35 has the most superior sensor and avionic package fielded and has "exceptional" stealth features BUT is "zero" in aerodynamics, speed, agility, range and payload(in stealth config).

In the modern history, the US jets have gone against a range of Russian weapon systems....the record speaks for itself. Whether it was Iraq in 1991 and Iraqi Migs fought Saudi and Nato -15's, or the Russian Migs fighting -16's back in the 1980's through Pakistan's air force, Syrian and Egyptian Migs vs. the Israeli jets during multiple conflicts, or the Russian and British jets against the F-86 and F-104 during 1965 and 1971 wars between India and Pakistan........
I don't know what's more credible about a fighter jet's performance other than a destroyed enemy jet!!!!

A single RAF Typhoon defeated "3" Singaporean F-16's in a simulated dog fight during the testing process for a Singaporean bid for buying Jets ...Same RAF Typhoons went against F-16mlu's flown by Pakistani Pilots in 1 on 1 simulated dog fights during "Anatolian Eagle" exercise...and the result was 3 to 0 loss to Typhoons.

 

[Djinn]

Either you have NO clue, or you are just silly questioning stuff that you have NO idea about !!!! How about you do some research and learn for yourself before just wasting others time.

Also, I'd LOVE to see where the -22 lost to SU-30 or ANY Russian jet even in a fun and simulated combat. Do share details with me. The only time so far, anyone was able to get a lock onto a -22 was an EFT, at very close range in dog fighting and that was also an IFR lock. Not through its AESA (apparently even the AESA's can't see a -22 when its flying right in front of the EFT and the pilot can visually see it and lock on it through IFR). Also remember, even in this scenario, the -22 isn't a dog fighter. I'd be VERY surprise if even 1% of the -22's ever see their enemies withing 2-3 miles!!

Here, read up direct Israeli air battle with the Russians (not Arabs flying plans, but the Russian pilots flying Mig-21's): Ambush Over the Desert Israel AF VS Soviet AF

Here are some recorded encounters during the 91's Gulf war:
17 January 1991
USAF F-15C vs. IRAF MiG-29
The first air-air kills of the war occurred when two USAF F-15Cs shot down two Iraqi MiG-29s.[2]
USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF Mirage F1s
Later on the same night, an F-15C scored a double-kill against two Mirages with AIM-7 missiles. His wingman scored another kill on a third Mirage F1, for a total of three kills in the dogfight.[2]

USN F/A-18s vs. IRAF MiG-25s
On the first night of the war, two F/A-18s from the carrier USS Saratoga were flying outside of Baghdad when two Iraqi MiG-25PDs interceptors from the 96th Squadron engaged them. In the beyond-visual-range (BVR) kill, one of the Iraqi MiGs piloted by Lieutenant Colonel Zuhair Dawood, fired an R-40 missile, shooting down one of the F/A-18's as it was travelling Mach 0.92. The pilot, Lieutenant Commander Scott Speicher, was killed. It is widely believed he died upon the impact of the missile.[2]
USAF F-111s vs. IRAF MiG-23
An Iraqi MiG-23 fired a R-24T missile at a F-111 on a bombing run and scored a hit, although the bomber made it safely back to base. Another similar incident occurred with the same Iraqi interceptor several minutes later, this F-111 also made it back to base despite the severe damage to the aircraft. This is Iraq's only success of the Persian Gulf War using MiG-23s.[4]

19 January 1991
USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF MiG-25s
In a brief dogfight, two F-15Cs engaged and shot down two Iraqi MiG-25s attempting to engage them, both using AIM-7 missiles.[2][3] One was destroyed by Captain Rick Tuleni and the second by Captain Larry Pitts

6 February 1991
USAF F-15C vs. IRAF Su-25s
A F-15C spots two Iraqi Su-25s and gives chase, locking on, and shooting down both planes with AIM-9 missiles.[2]


27 December 1992
USAF F-16 vs. IRAF MiG-25
A MiG-25 crossed the no-fly zone and an F-16D shot it down with an AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. It is the first kill with an AIM-120, and also the first USAF F-16 kill.[11]

.

F-15 vs MIG 21, Su 25, MIG 23, Mirage F1...............Oh yeah that is indeed some competition. The fact that you are comparing USAF's top of the line fighter with obsolete jets says a lot about how weak your argument is. Yes that was Euro-Fighter scoring a win against F-22---which again negates the notion that "American jets are superior". At the end my original question:How do we ascertain which aircraft is better? Why don't you answer by comparing current generation fighters like SU30, SU35, MIG35, J10, J11, J15, Rafale, Euro-fighter, Gripen. Instead of gloating over American wins over nations like Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.P.S Instead of advising others, how about you develop some comprehension skills and try to understand others point of view before jumping guns with your peripheral preconceived notions.

 

[Al-Taïr]

People .....vwhich page of this thread should i go to, to actualy read something about fc31.. . . & as for american jets... There is a reason we have such a good kil ratio against indians& and still are very much interested in F-16s.. . Learn to respect the technology.

 

[Viper0011.]

F-15 vs MIG 21, Su 25, MIG 23, Mirage F1...............Oh yeah that is indeed some competition. The fact that you are comparing USAF's top of the line fighter with obsolete jets says a lot about how weak your argument is. Yes that was Euro-Fighter scoring a win against F-22---which again negates the notion that "American jets are superior". At the end my original question:How do we ascertain which aircraft is better? Why don't you answer by comparing current generation fighters like SU30, SU35, MIG35, J10, J11, J15, Rafale, Euro-fighter, Gripen. Instead of gloating over American wins over nations like Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.P.S Instead of advising others, how about you develop some comprehension skills and try to understand others point of view before jumping guns with your peripheral preconceived notions.

The comparisons I gave you, also had MIG-29's in it. You conveniently forgot that. It was supposed to be an Apple to Apple comparison. Then, the Russian Mig-21's, attacking Israeli Mirages is also an Apple to Apple comparison. The Pakistani F-16's have also scored kills against the Russian jets of that time. There is no weak argument here. I provided facts to you. You just want to make silly comments and ignore what you want ignored so you can TRY to score a point which otherwise makes no sense.

Euro-fighter won against a -22.....did you read my post with attention? The -22 isn't a dog fighter.....putting a boxer in a dog cage doesn't mean the boxer would win. He would try to survive the dog attack and would definitely throw a few punches in, before escaping, or the dog can totally nail him. But irrespective of the outcome, the boxer wasn't trained to fight dogs!!! Similarly, the -22 wasn't designed to dog fight !!!

You asked me SPECIFICALLY to show you details on where the American jets have fought against the Russians. I did give you all those details. Now you are trying to change topic as my provided details proved you wrong.

Out of the list you provided of 4th and 4++ gen aircraft's, I'd personally pick EFT for an air force. I wouldn't pitch the EFT against the F-22 in a real war as you'll end up losing a whole squadron of the EFT's by a pair of the -22's within a few minutes post contact. But the EFT's can handle everything else from your list.

The next one on the list is a tie between SU-35 and the F-15. SU-30 is simply somewhat upgraded SU-27. Outside of the upgraded radar in MKI version of it, there are some serious maintenance and performance flaws in SU-30. I'd put the SU-35 above all other MIG and SU-X family of aircrafts.

 

[Djinn]

The comparisons I gave you, also had MIG-29's in it. You conveniently forgot that. It was supposed to be an Apple to Apple comparison. Then, the Russian Mig-21's, attacking Israeli Mirages is also an Apple to Apple comparison. The Pakistani F-16's have also scored kills against the Russian jets of that time. There is no weak argument here. I provided facts to you. You just want to make silly comments and ignore what you want ignored so you can TRY to score a point which otherwise makes no sense.

Euro-fighter won against a -22.....did you read my post with attention? The -22 isn't a dog fighter.....putting a boxer in a dog cage doesn't mean the boxer would win. He would try to survive the dog attack and would definitely throw a few punches in, before escaping, or the dog can totally nail him. But irrespective of the outcome, the boxer wasn't trained to fight dogs!!! Similarly, the -22 wasn't designed to dog fight !!!

You asked me SPECIFICALLY to show you details on where the American jets have fought against the Russians. I did give you all those details. Now you are trying to change topic as my provided details proved you wrong.

Out of the list you provided of 4th and 4++ gen aircraft's, I'd personally pick EFT for an air force. I wouldn't pitch the EFT against the F-22 in a real war as you'll end up losing a whole squadron of the EFT's by a pair of the -22's within a few minutes post contact. But the EFT's can handle everything else from your list.

The next one on the list is a tie between SU-35 and the F-15. SU-30 is simply somewhat upgraded SU-27. Outside of the upgraded radar in MKI version of it, there are some serious maintenance and performance flaws in SU-30. I'd put the SU-35 above all other MIG and SU-X family of aircrafts.

LOL i feel like i am replying to a 10 year old.

A MIG-25PDS, piloted by Lt. Zuhair Dawood of the 84th Fighter Squadron, shot down an U.S. Navy F/A-18 Hornet from VFA-81 on the first night of the war.
Flying a MIG-29 he shot down a Royal Air Force Tornado GR.1A with R-60 missiles.
In another incident, an Iraqi Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 eluded eight USAF F-15C Eagles, firing three missiles at a USAF EF-111 electronic warfare aircraft, forcing them to abort their mission. In yet another incident, two MiG-25's approached a pair of F-15 Eagles, fired missiles (which were evaded by the F-15s), and then out-ran the American fighters. Two more F-15s joined the pursuit, and a total of ten air-to-air missiles were fired at the Foxbats; none of which could reach them.

Please note all this is from western sources and the history proves it that they are not very authentic especially American and Izzraeli, but still they serve well to refute your perception.
So applying your logic here proves that MIG25 is superior to F-15 AND F-18.
Last time i checked Mirages were FRENCH and not American, so try harder.
Yes PAF f-16's scored kills, but MIG's scored kills too.
Wow how conveniently you bothered to mention generations now but some how cunningly ignored to mention them while gloating over American kills against Iraq?
The rest of your post is solely based on your subjective assessment and thus allow me to say that since there are no International benchmarks to award jets from a particular country as best.........The notion that American jets are most superior is utterly flawed and partial.