SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[Mani2020]

Let me put it another way..stealth fighter is going to be a game changer. It will make any 4th gen airforce obsolete if inducted early enough. Pakistan shud focus on j 31 as dedicated air superiority fighter and forget about inducting another 4th gen aircraft if this can be percured in a reasonable time..

I dont know bilal khan what are u talking about and your whole post is very detached from reality...

That is an exaggeration of the fact. Had it been the case USA would have replaced all its 4 or 4. 5 generation aircrafts with f22. There are various things that need to be considered. first is the budget which in case of paf becomes more significant. Second is the technology being used, an aircraft tagged as 5th generation on paper doesn't make it so, it has to prove its worth... similarly as some 4th generation aircrafts were better than their counterparts while other were duds same is the case with 5th generation... third is the number inducted... you can't expect paf with 50 f31 making Indian 300 su30 and 100 odd mirages and mig 29s obsolete. Fourth is the fact that being 5th generation aircraft doesn't make it something invisible which can go and beat the shit out of enemy any day any time. Fifth is the fact that either you are offender or defender. Besides with awacs, net centric environment and good SAMs no airforce with some 5th generation aircrafts can make other airfore with good 4 or 4. 5 generation aircrafts obsolete.

You always have to maintain a high- lo combo especially when you are a dead economy like ours... even keeping that sometimes is a hectic task... we by no means have so much funds that we can go all out with a 5th generation aircraft to make our adversary look like a dodo... everything we do is mostly a reaction to what our adversary do... we can't afford to be the initiaters because we know the other party has full pockets and they can throw back it at us with double magnitude and impact

 

[MastanKhan]

Dear Sir,
Mostly I am agreed with You but some new platform is due for Pak in heavy category of 4.5 gen as India is also getting Rafaels though in limited numbers. While Pak only has 76 F16s we may say handful to counter Indian Jets even their Migs have been upgraded. We may go for same engines for our new plat form as used in our Jf17s.
Similarly excuse that Indian Su Mki are not in good shape then what abt our Mirrages and F7s. We want replacement of our vintage jets soon.
Being only a layman I can say that PAF and PN are in dire need of 4.5th gen Platform for deep strike missions. Some times offence is the best defense. One major part in our surrender in Bangladesh was our defensive posture.

Hi,

You are correct about the Heavy aircraft---. Not having is tantamount to HIGH TREASON against the defense of the state.

There is a reason why no air force in the world manufactures a fighter aircraft for itself. There are analysts and strategists who plan what the air force needs---they manufacture it and give it to the air force and tell them here it is---now go do your job.

To top it off---the defense minister of Pakistan is also an illiterate like the last one----.

Musharraf was right about the air force---. He knew they fcuked up by going all out for the Saab and he forced them and changed the order----He then went for the J 10----but as he is not in power the pak air force can do its drama.

I have some idiots on this board talk about smart weapons and smart bombs-----what is JF 17 going to carry---4 smart bombs or 8 smaller smart bombs----.

How many is the SU 30 going to carry---12 heavy smart bombs----24 to 30 small ones on special racks----.

The JF 17 is a great little aircraft----for chicken sh-it kind of specialized single strikes---but not for heavy strikes.

Same thing for the naval strike mission----. When fighting the indian navy----you need an aircraft that can carry at least 4 to 8 anti ship missiles---. Out of six aircraft maybe two---maybe one aircraft will get thru----that aircraft if it does not have the minimum number of missiles---it is all a waste----.

Anti missile defense will take out 4 to 6 out of 8 anti ship missiles----. Now the JF 17 is an excellent aircraft to complement the main strike force---or use it to slip and out due to its small size---. With an aesa it will be a massive asset in the air to air war-----but for ground strike----nothing beats a heavy load.

 

[Mrc]

Hi,

It is better and cheaper to continue on with the 4 and 4.5 gen technology for as long as possible.

Pakistan should delay the purchase of a 5th gen for as long as possible till India does not make a commitment.

Changing fighter aircraft is not like changing your underwear. There is a systematic and a pragmatic approach to the issue. You just don't go out and buy something just like that---you have to buy it keeping in mind and seeing what the enemy is going to procure and what it has procured.

J31 is going to develop in time and the longer it takes for development---the better end product we will have. If the strategic issues give us a 10---15 years time to start integrating the J31---then one should rest assured that the technology outcome would almost be time and a half to twice as good---and same with the weapons as well.

I would respectfully disagree...

If j 31 is stealth enuf and gives a very weak signal, too weak to b locked on to, it would make BVR missiles useless as they rely on radar lock; which is also the case for most medium and high altitude SAMs...

But a 4 4.5 gen should be visible for a lock to j 31, thus u get first shot capability...that does mean that all the sukhois and migs become mostly irrelevant...
This is far better and cheaper option than trying to compete in numbers with 4th gen aircraft

With russian stealth programe in doldrums it may give you alot if breathing space viz via any 4th gen airforce..

 

[That Guy]

Russia can put Pakistan Su-35
09/07/2015
981


Russia may deliver to Pakistan, apart from a few units of Mi-35M, Su-35. This was announced by the Assistant Russian President Vladimir Kozhin, RIA Novosti reported.

According to the source, the negotiations on the preparation of contracts for the delivery to Pakistan of "several pieces of" Mi-35M and Su-35 are continuing. At the same time, he stressed that there is no information on the number of fighters, estimated to delivery.

Earlier reports said that Pakistan can be supplied attack helicopters Mi-35M. This was stated by the Russian ambassador in the country, without specifying the number of combat vehicles.

The Su-35 has not previously been supplied abroad. Currently we are discussing a contract for the sale of fighter jets to China.

Su-35 - multirole fighter generation 4 ++, deep modernization of the Su-27 avionics with elements of combat aircraft of the fifth generation. Fighter in 2011, is being tested. The first aircraft of this type appeared in the army in late 2012 and transferred into trial operation.
Россия может поставить Пакистану истребители Су-35 | Военный информатор

Bullshit news.

 

[MastanKhan]

I would respectfully disagree...

If j 31 is stealth enuf and gives a very weak signal, too weak to b locked on to, it would make BVR missiles useless as they rely on radar lock; which is also the case for most medium and high altitude SAMs...

But a 4 4.5 gen should be visible for a lock to j 31, thus u get first shot capability...that does mean that all the sukhois and migs become mostly irrelevant...
This is far better and cheaper option than trying to compete in numbers with 4th gen aircraft

With russian stealth programe in doldrums it may give you alot if breathing space viz via any 4th gen airforce..

Hi,

Paf will wait till IAF decides what they are getting----.

 

[Quwa]

I have a somewhat different angle. I do think the PAF should consider the J-31, but it shouldn't make the J-31 its sole next generation solution. In fact, as with the JF-17, the next mainstay fighter in the PAF should be a locally produced platform. The J-31 should be acquired to bridge that transition, but the long-term solution cannot be an imported system.

The PAF should build upon the method it used to approach the JF-17. In other words, Pakistan will probably still need a foreign partner to heavily assist with development. However, this time it shouldn't shy away from a high performance design, the aim should be that of a 'world class fighter.' Not only that, but it should focus on producing a much higher proportion of the system (including engine) at home. This won't be achieved in 10 years, so J-31 should be bought to bridge the gap until said platform (15 years from now?) can be ready.

 

[CHI RULES]

Hi,

You are correct about the Heavy aircraft---. Not having is tantamount to HIGH TREASON against the defense of the state.

There is a reason why no air force in the world manufactures a fighter aircraft for itself. There are analysts and strategists who plan what the air force needs---they manufacture it and give it to the air force and tell them here it is---now go do your job.

To top it off---the defense minister of Pakistan is also an illiterate like the last one----.

Musharraf was right about the air force---. He knew they fcuked up by going all out for the Saab and he forced them and changed the order----He then went for the J 10----but as he is not in power the pak air force can do its drama.

I have some idiots on this board talk about smart weapons and smart bombs-----what is JF 17 going to carry---4 smart bombs or 8 smaller smart bombs----.

How many is the SU 30 going to carry---12 heavy smart bombs----24 to 30 small ones on special racks----.

The JF 17 is a great little aircraft----for chicken sh-it kind of specialized single strikes---but not for heavy strikes.

Same thing for the naval strike mission----. When fighting the indian navy----you need an aircraft that can carry at least 4 to 8 anti ship missiles---. Out of six aircraft maybe two---maybe one aircraft will get thru----that aircraft if it does not have the minimum number of missiles---it is all a waste----.

Anti missile defense will take out 4 to 6 out of 8 anti ship missiles----. Now the JF 17 is an excellent aircraft to complement the main strike force---or use it to slip and out due to its small size---. With an aesa it will be a massive asset in the air to air war-----but for ground strike----nothing beats a heavy load.

Dear Sir,

Nice reply and I wonder why PAF and especially PN have not taken decision in this regard. Further You are quite right that JF17 is there only to complement main strike Fighter it can;t be used in lead role. For deep offence we should at least go for navalised version of J11 series 1 to squadrons and in case if possible instead of J11, J16 should be much better option almost competitive as per specs to any modern jet.

Further due to secrecy maintained by Chinese we can't get complete specs of mentioned jets so should not degrade their qualities as happened in the past by many member's. Further u before Chinese president visit said that PN is going for improved variant of JH7 but still no news out there.

The Chinese are not fools to offer an under powered /semi stealth platform to Pak, as PAF shall be testing ground for these jets actual performance. The Chinese are continuously improving this jet and will offer this to Pak only when they are satisfied with the performance. So pressure is on Chinese. They knew due to cost factor it shall be inducted in limited numbers in PAF. The Chinese main target market is Arab countries along with few North American countries and may be few African nations.

 

[MastanKhan]

Dear Sir,

Nice reply and I wonder why PAF and especially PN have not taken decision in this regard. Further You are quite right that JF17 is there only to complement main strike Fighter it can;t be used in lead role. For deep offence we should at least go for navalised version of J11 series 1 to squadrons and in case if possible instead of J11, J16 should be much better option almost competitive as per specs to any modern jet.

Further due to secrecy maintained by Chinese we can't get complete specs of mentioned jets so should not degrade their qualities as happened in the past by many member's. Further u before Chinese president visit said that PN is going for improved variant of JH7 but still no news out there.

The Chinese are not fools to offer an under powered /semi stealth platform to Pak, as PAF shall be testing ground for these jets actual performance. The Chinese are continuously improving this jet and will offer this to Pak only when they are satisfied with the performance. So pressure is on Chinese. They knew due to cost factor it shall be inducted in limited numbers in PAF. The Chinese main target market is Arab countries along with few North American countries and may be few African nations.

Hi,

Rest assured that if Pakistan and China agree on a product---it will be the best that the Chinese will offer in that product line. For Pakistan---there is no hold back.

Just like the F7PG's that we got was an extremely superior aircraft by Chinese definition and did more than what it promised.

The navy should consider two sqdrn's of JH7B's---JF 17 by itself is not enough to do the job.

Just remember---out 6 flying out----1 or 2 aircraft will break through the quadrant and be able to launch their anti ship missiles---.

If it is a JF 17 with 2 of them----then you have a zero chance of a hit. Out of 8 missiles launched at ships----5 or 6 will be shot down----2 to 3 will hit----.

So---if out of your six Heavy aircraft if 2 of them are able to launch 6 to 8 missiles each at the enemythat will be between 12 to 16 missiles----which means now you will have the chance of scoring around 40--50% hits---. The higher the number of missiles---the higher the number of strikes by percentage---.

Lower the number of missiles launched----let us say 4 missiles launched at a flotilla of 4 ships---- by 2 JF 17's and all of them will be taken out by the ant missile defence of the ships---so you may not get a single hit and those two JF 17's that were able to sneak in---they will also be lost.

So---basically---in the first strikes---you need to overwhelm the opponent with the number of aircraft and missile strikes on the enemy ships---.

 

[JonAsad]

1 noob question-
How can fc31 maintain stealth with 2 smoky engines?-

 

[CHI RULES]

1 noob question-
How can fc31 maintain stealth with 2 smoky engines?-

still in developing stage

 

[Beast]

1 noob question-
How can fc31 maintain stealth with 2 smoky engines?-

RD-31 is only a termporary engine for developing phase. Who told you it will be the final engine for export?

 

[JonAsad]

RD-31 is only a termporary engine for developing phase. Who told you it will be the final engine for export?

I am noob i got this from the OP-

 

[SQ8]

RD-31 is only a termporary engine for developing phase. Who told you it will be the final engine for export?

Its called the RD-33...and until China can make engines that last beyond 200 hours..it is the engine that will be for any export.

 

[danger007]

Hi,

You are correct about the Heavy aircraft---. Not having is tantamount to HIGH TREASON against the defense of the state.

There is a reason why no air force in the world manufactures a fighter aircraft for itself. There are analysts and strategists who plan what the air force needs---they manufacture it and give it to the air force and tell them here it is---now go do your job.

To top it off---the defense minister of Pakistan is also an illiterate like the last one----.

Musharraf was right about the air force---. He knew they fcuked up by going all out for the Saab and he forced them and changed the order----He then went for the J 10----but as he is not in power the pak air force can do its drama.

I have some idiots on this board talk about smart weapons and smart bombs-----what is JF 17 going to carry---4 smart bombs or 8 smaller smart bombs----.

How many is the SU 30 going to carry---12 heavy smart bombs----24 to 30 small ones on special racks----.

The JF 17 is a great little aircraft----for chicken sh-it kind of specialized single strikes---but not for heavy strikes.

Same thing for the naval strike mission----. When fighting the indian navy----you need an aircraft that can carry at least 4 to 8 anti ship missiles---. Out of six aircraft maybe two---maybe one aircraft will get thru----that aircraft if it does not have the minimum number of missiles---it is all a waste----.

Anti missile defense will take out 4 to 6 out of 8 anti ship missiles----. Now the JF 17 is an excellent aircraft to complement the main strike force---or use it to slip and out due to its small size---. With an aesa it will be a massive asset in the air to air war-----but for ground strike----nothing beats a heavy load.

Apart Sam does JF-17 have long legs to reach the ships ??? lets not forget IN air wing... are those jf 17 enough to counter Mig 29k and at the same time Naval strike mission???

 

[SQ8]

Apart Sam does JF-17 have long legs to reach the ships ??? lets not forget IN air wing... are those jf 17 enough to counter Mig 29k and at the same time Naval strike mission???

A2A refuelling takes care of that. And yes, it can attack the Migs and do Naval strike.

What is not guaranteed is its return after that mission.