Russia gives a cold shoulder to India for the 5th generation fighter

[Vertiti Scrutator]

Well I think India has just exposed Russia's weakness and handicap of FAK/FA to everyone . But don't you think that FAK/FA is good enough to counter J-20? it seems like India is ambitious with it FGFA.

Good enough at what price?? Everything is good/great for a specific price! Russia is touting PAKFA as a 5th gen fighter and charging $hit load of $$$ - India thinks it's not worth the price!
Overall, there is a 'Russian fatigue' in India. Russia generally gouged a lot of money from India giving very little in return (even though India got tagged as being 'friends with the soviets'). The aircraft carrier deal was probably too much to stomach.

It's old school thinking (of dogfigthing) that one aircraft should be 'matched' against the other. Irrespective of what J-20 is, India needs a stealthy, super-cruising 5th gen aircraft - which PAKFA is not!

Are you serious? , India told Russia that their FAK/FA design is not good, ask for TOT then India will make improvement they want.

Absolutely!!! Another major issue with the Russian deal was Russia wanted India to put up 50% of development costs (which will essentially go into Russian pockets) and their team will do all the work. India insisted that its labs will do 50% of the design work using India's scientists/engineers - which means Russia will need to let go of half its (projected) team!!! And each team would share 100% of the technology with the other!!

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Good enough at what price?? Everything is good/great for a specific price! Russia is touting PAKFA as a 5th gen fighter and charging $hit load of $$$ - India thinks it's not worth the price!
Overall, there is a 'Russian fatigue' in India. Russia generally gouged a lot of money from India giving very little in return (even though India got tagged as being 'friends with the soviets'). The aircraft carrier deal was probably too much stomach.

It's old school thinking (of dogfigthing) that one aircraft should be 'matched' against the other. Irrespective of what J-20 is, India needs a stealthy, super-cruising 5th gen aircraft - which PAKFA is not!

Fair enough for what you said but you should understand that at time, no one is willing to cooperate with India on 5th gen fighter and India couldn't undertake this project alone as China did, so it's an give and take offer from Russia, India sure could refuse but I think India didn't want to close it own door for the such window of opportunity.

 

[Vertiti Scrutator]

So what's the problem then?

There's no problem!!
These things take time to settle. Russia has been coaxing India for several years on the deal. India is studying it - no big hurry!! Even if India wants F-35s the deal and the delivery (after USAFs needs are met) would take 6-7 years anyways!!!

Fair enough for what you said but you should understand that at time, no one is willing to cooperate with India on 5th gen fighter and India couldn't undertake this project alone as China did, so it's an give and take offer from Russia, India sure could refuse but I think India didn't want to close it own door for the such window of opportunity.

Sure. It will be a harder and riskier route to go it alone - India is working on AMCA (a 5th gen, medium weight, super cruising, stealthy fighter). FGFA, if it happens, will be a heavier aircraft!
I think there's enough confidence that a PAKFA like aircraft (a medium weight category variant) with limited stealth and non-super-cruising aircraft could be built in India all by itself!!

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Absolutely!!! Another major issue with the Russian deal was Russia wanted India to put up 50% of development costs (which will essentially go into Russian pockets) and their team will do all the work. India insisted that its labs will do 50% of the design work using India's scientists/engineers - which means Russia will need to let go of half its (projected) team!!! And each team would share 100% of the technology with the other!!

I remember to read an article that one of Russian official said "what India can do beside the money on PAK/FA", I know Indians are good on IT and software, beside that what India can contribute to PAK/FA program?

 

[terranMarine]

I remember to read an article that one of Russian official said "what India can do beside the money on PAK/FA", I know Indians are good on IT and software, beside that what India can contribute to PAK/FA program?

I don't think the Russians having much faith in Indian capability developing a 5th gen fighter, rather do it themselves and let India do the investment.

 

[Vertiti Scrutator]

I remember to read an article that one of Russian official said "what India can do beside the money on PAK/FA", I know Indians are good on IT and software, beside that what India can contribute to PAK/FA program?

That's again old school thinking that India is only good at software. Over the last 10 years, India has had significant and simultaneous successes in several areas of defense. Aeronautics and avionics is one area where a lot of progress has been made. If India was willing to spend $25 billion on FGFA (initial estimate, that has been dwindling down over the years due to Russian intransigence) then it won't be foolish to risk that much money by taking on 50% of the development work if it wasn't confident of delivering!! Of course, Russians wanted ALL of that $25 billion for themselves!!

I don't think the Russians having much faith in Indian capability developing a 5th gen fighter, rather do it themselves and let India do the investment.

Well, that's the deal they have to make or walk away from it!!!
The 50% work share was an issue, but not as big an issue as Russia taking $25 billion from India and passing off a junk aircraft like PAKFA as 5th gen aircraft!! If Russia can deliver of FGFA (Indian requirements), maybe India will be prepared to settle for lesser work share!

 

[My-Analogous]

Russia military industry will collapse to nothing without indian $$$ billions .

Rafale
Scorpene
C17 globemasters
P8 posideon
C130 hercules
m777 HOWITZERS
Barak 8 Sams
ge414 ENGINES
ELBIT dash 5 HMD/ python 5
Harpy drones


USA FRANCE & ISRAEL Are winning massive deals

currently

Russia is on the verge of winning
SU30MKI upgrade deal worth $10 billion
Gorgorvich Frigates x 4 ships worth $3 billion
second Akula class lease £1 billion
S400 abm system worth $4 billion
T90 SM deal for 464 tanks worth $2,5 billion


All of these deald can be lost to USA FRANCE or ISRAEL idf thye Russians don't tread carefully around INDIA

India is nothing and stop portending India big thing and only solution for the world and very rich to save all and Russia need India things like that. You guys are even not near to China and let US a side, Russian are the only country in this world look in the eyes of US past 50 years. No body mass with bear remember that and don't make bear more angry. If you guys are that much important then buy F20 from US and if you do that in next 5 year then i will phase India the most important country in Asia

That's again old school thinking that India is only good at software. Over the last 10 years, India has had significant and simultaneous successes in several areas of defense. Aeronautics and avionics is one area where a lot of progress has been made. If India was willing to spend $25 billion on FGFA (initial estimate, that has been dwindling down over the years due to Russian intransigence) then it won't be foolish to risk that much money by taking on 50% of the development work if it wasn't confident of delivering!! Of course, Russians wanted ALL of that $25 billion for themselves!!


Well, that's the deal they have to make or walk away from it!!!
The 50% work share was an issue, but not as big an issue as Russia taking $25 billion from India and passing off a junk aircraft like PAKFA as 5th gen aircraft!! If Russia can deliver of FGFA (Indian requirements), maybe India will be prepared to settle for lesser work share!

When it come to national security then how much you offer to any country they will not accept it, Russia will not let her technology in hand of US Period. If you guys convince them only then you will have such system but i think India version will highlt very less capable compare to Russian and even thou they will not share that technology from them

 

[Vertiti Scrutator]

When it come to national security then how much you offer to any country they will not accept it, Russia will not let her technology in hand of US Period. If you guys convince them only then you will have such system but i think India version will highlt very less capable compare to Russian and even thou they will not share that technology from them

Not really!!! Several countries are more than happy to share and work together!! For several countries/companies they'd rather have 50% of a big market rather than 100% of zero (and then wind down)!!

 

[Indika]

I guess they have never heard of the LEMOA?

They do and russian defence minister asked whether he can get a LEMOA'n juice, a real one for that matter of fact not fake ones.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

They do and russian defence minister asked whether he can get a LEMOA'n juice, a real one for that matter of fact not fake ones.

I mean the authors of the article.

Obviously Russia itself paid very close attention to India making the USA their top defense partner in the past few years, up to and including the signing of the LEMOA with the US military. Why do you think Russia is moving steadily towards China and Pakistan?

 

[terranMarine]

India has become an untrustworthy partner for Russia, so no surprise it's moving closer to Pakistan now. Who knows Russians might sell their Flankers to our Iron Bro. As for India purchasing F-35 don't expect any TOT either

 

[Indika]

Why do you think Russia is moving steadily towards China and Pakistan?

Americans say russia helped trump does that mean russia is moving towards america? Russia is only protecting its interests and not moving any where. By allying with India it will only gain economically and they know well that India wont act against russian interests. If history is any indicator russia would be very well be aware of the backstabbers who switch sides for money. During russian defence ministers visit pakistan showed the weapons siezed from taliban , do you think russians would be so naive to believe pakistan after pakistans support for so called mujahideen.

 

[Vertiti Scrutator]

I mean the authors of the article.

Obviously Russia itself paid very close attention to India making the USA their top defense partner in the past few years, up to and including the signing of the LEMOA with the US military. Why do you think Russia is moving steadily towards China and Pakistan?

Russia and China have been close for a loooooong time. Much of the China's defence technologies actually come from Russia - let me correct that...they don't come, but China has stolen them from Russia. Russia hates that, but can do little as China has become a big economy. Russia likes the Indian market, because India plays by the rule, does not violate agreements by stealing or reverse engineering designs.
In China's defence, it doesn't just steal from Russia, it steals from US too extensively!!! It's hardly surprising that all of Lockheed Martin's designs (that it had openly stolen several years ago) shows up in China's fighter planes.
India has had some non-Russian products in its arsenal for a long time too (Mirages from France, Jaguar from UK etc.), the quality difference is quite obvious!! As such India is choosing more and more or non-Russian products - nothing really connected to LEMOA!

 

[!eon]

Whatever [B][SIZE=5]S-400 alone is such a system can destroy entire PAF two times without even single MKI or Tejas flying.[/SIZE][/B]

and
[B][URL='https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/when-british-sas-kneeled-down-in-front-of-indian-para-special-forces.486707/']When British SAS Kneeled Down in front of Indian Para Special Forces[/URL][/B]

 

[ranadd]

The source!!!!... The source!!!...