Russia Detains 300 Muslims During Prayer

[Developereo]

I am saying the "lack of a major noise" (if it is there) may be a good thing. The major noise would have been likely about creating hysteria against these people.

I am saying what the role of a responsible media should be.

You are saying that the Russian media is more likely to flame the fans of hysteria than to highlight due process.

Putin has been doing that for as long as one remembers.

Of course.

You could have saved the trip around the barn and admitted upfront, like many other posters here, that Russian "due process" is not up to snuff.

 

[Vinod2070]

I am saying what the role of a responsible media should be.

You are saying that the Russian media is more likely to flame the fans of hysteria than to highlight due process.

I don't follow the Russian media. I base my experience on the media that I have seen in our region and the West.

Of course.

You could have saved the trip around the barn and admitted upfront, like many other posters here, that Russian "due process" is not up to snuff.

I won't pronounce such judgments in such a hurry. Their methods are sure different from the "West" but may be they are dictated by their needs.

 

[DV RULES]

@Developereo

You are misunderstanding situation and continuously following blind knowledge less track, Rules and regulations in Russian Federation has changed after USSR so will come to only points you raised; Nobody will arrest you without solid evidences and reasons so if you are foreigner having legal status of your stay in the territory of Russian Federation then you have nothing to worry but still you are not exempted from police to take you in custody for 3 hours for documentation check which may extended to 24 Hours depends on concern on your status or degree of non friendlier for society. If you got 3 administrative fines then on the next you will deported automatically. That's not just like that FSB came to your door and forced to take rout for your motherland but they first will provide evidences to police and will request for search & arrest warrant so then police with FSB case representative jointly arrest and lodge protocol (FIR as in our system) and with prosecutor present you in front of territorial court so you are allowed to take lawyer against charges fixed by state prosecutor/FSB/Police. This is general procedure practiced even in espionage cases so even terrorist arrested by police or FSB has to present in front of court where according to the procedure verdict is announced.

FSB is most powerful agency in Russian federation and has legs in all fields even some times on military; they are responsible to make sure security and peace for every person living in territory of Russian Federation. Military has no business here as they have their own frames of work but they are not assigned to care of civilian or even their bases security so can say FSB all over there. Now in current situation illegal immigrants, terrorism and extremism are one of many important tasks for FSB. I will tell you clearly that this arrest of 300 people is followed by the directives of Mayer Moscow to crack down on illegal immigrants and no place is exempted from this, mosques, Temples, churches etc and this is also truth that CIS countries are Muslims mostly and huge number of Afghans, Pakistanis, Arabic countries nationals gave them reason to check when there is boom of Saudi funded extremism which once make Caucus trouble for Russians.

Updates are there of this arrests so many of them were released as due procedure of checking documents and many are taken in custody for administrative fines having minor documentation violation and some will be deported and some got in intensive investigation for particular literature counted as threat for national security but in frames of legal procedure.

 

[Developereo]

Updates are there of this arrests so many of them were released as due procedure of checking documents and many are taken in custody for administrative fines having minor documentation violation and some will be deported and some got in intensive investigation for particular literature counted as threat for national security but in frames of legal procedure.

So, most of the people were not radical Islamist terrorist as people were implying here, and in the OP.

What was the pressing urgency that they had to be arrested during prayers in a mosque? Was there an imminent terrorist threat?

Immigration authorities in the West also conduct raids to round up suspected illegals, but they don't do it during mass at a church.

 

[Battle of Kursk]

@Developereo

Back to the good old KGB days, eh? Straight to the gulag...

Demagogy, there is a wide spectrum between USA/western Europe liberalism and Soviet gulags, this doesn't serve well in a civilized discussion.

Police must state what the charges are for detaining people beyond a limited time.

Can you link me to the part of the Russian criminal code that says that charges on detainees have to be made public?

Actually, as I explained earlier, unless police prove their case, it does mean that the people detained are innocent

Actually, he did not say they are not innocent, he said that the lack of public charges as of yet does not mean they are could not be guilty.

The authorities just rounded up a bunch of people and will "check for extremist content".

An opinion based on little.

I want authorities to explain why 300 people were detained in a mass raid. Were all 300 involved in a massive conspiracy?

The Russian federation does not own you anything, the fact that you want something is meaningless to Russia.

Arresting 300 people in a raid is not normal behavior.

When police do such actions, there is reasonable cause given.

Again, this is your opinion this is not a fact. The decision to provide information is up to the state and the legal system.

But to claim that these people are all Islamist extremists and then say "we will check for extremist literature" is backwards.

False, where have they claimed all those people are Islamist extremists?

Can you show me where mainstream Russian media is demanding answers and raising concerns about the rights of those detained?

Perhaps because according to Russian law no rights have been breached?

When police keep people detained beyond a time frame, then specific charges must be filed. Otherwise, it becomes a KGB scenario.

Who's to decided the time frame you? de facto in Russia indefinite detainment is legal (as in the USA by the way), under certain procedures of course.

Again, since the good old KGB days, show me cases where hundreds of people were rounded up at a social setting?

Show me cases in Russia where non Muslim terrorists have killed hundreds of civilians in recent years. Not just once.

Surely the Russian police has the resources to arrest people at their house or elsewhere. The raids on mosques during prayers is very symbolic.

Symbolic? efficient. The resources needed to arrest hundreds of people simultaneously are tremendous. Why would the FSB spend orders of magnitude more resources with a MUCH larger chance for error?
Besides, since you are advocating similar rights to all groups regardless of religion (or so I understood) what's special about a Mosque over any other building?

Because the OP states that these raids are part of a crackdown ordered by Putin himself. Putin loosened the rules of engagement.

Yes, I am sure that in all cases you take as fact any claim by an unnamed source in some random new agency. It's definitely not because in this case it aligns with your agenda.

 

[Battle of Kursk]

@Developereo

What was the pressing urgency that they had to be arrested during prayers in a mosque? Was there an imminent terrorist threat?

We know that they were arrested in a mosque. It's your addition that it was during prayers. It could be just before, or after. Or they could be sheltering the illegal immigrants. Unless I've missed some information? then I'll apologize, and I expect you to do the same if no such is available.

Immigration authorities in the West also conduct raids to round up suspected illegals, but they don't do it during mass at a church.

How is that relevant? Russia should follow practices common USA why?

You are saying that the Russian media is more likely to flame the fans of hysteria than to highlight due process.

Drop the word "Russian" and your description works pretty much just as well. Hysteria sells. high sells = money.

You could have saved the trip around the barn and admitted upfront, like many other posters here, that Russian "due process" is not up to snuff.

Yes, it happens too much that Russian authorities do not follow due process. However there was no evidence that this is the case here. And your hints that this is an action against random Muslims are baseless thus far too.

I agree that one might have a reason to check if due process was followed in such cases. If you are sincerely worried about them you can contact human rights movements operating in Russia, who in turn can contact the government for more information.
Using the arrest for conspiracy theories is not constructive.

@DV RULES

Nobody will arrest you without solid evidences

That's not really true, sadly corruption is rampant in Russia. Many times people are detained because they are in the way of powerful business man, and other cases. But I haven't heard of cases where ethnic groups are targeted by the government. It's more often acts of personal corruption to farther individual cause.

 

[Developereo]

Demagogy, there is a wide spectrum between USA/western Europe liberalism and Soviet gulags, this doesn't serve well in a civilized discussion.

It is a statement of fact.
When someone says that the authorities detaining someone automatically implies guilt, then that's a particular mindset better suited to the gulag days than a modern democracy.

Can you link me to the part of the Russian criminal code that says that charges on detainees have to be made public?

People here have confirmed that Russian law requires charges to be laid within a matter of hours.

Actually, he did not say they are not innocent, he said that the lack of public charges as of yet does not mean they are could not be guilty.

Read again.
He claimed that they are guilty without any evidence or claims by the police to that effect.

An opinion based on little.

That's the phraseology in the original article. Read it.

The Russian federation does not own you anything, the fact that you want something is meaningless to Russia.

Read the context of the question and the answer before commenting.

Again, this is your opinion this is not a fact. The decision to provide information is up to the state and the legal system.

No, it is a fact that, in a liberal democracy, police must specify charges to detain people beyond a certain limit.
The only excuse you may have is that that Russia is not a liberal democracy and does not function by those rules.

False, where have they claimed all those people are Islamist extremists?

You seem to have a serious problem of reading comprehension. This is the fourth time in this post you have commented without reading what's actually written.

Read the original article and the title.

Perhaps because according to Russian law no rights have been breached?

Raiding religious places (third time this year) for mass detention is a serious matter. Unless there is probable cause (imminent threat) for such mass arrests, it violates people's right to peaceful congregation and religious practice.

Who's to decided the time frame you? de facto in Russia indefinite detainment is legal (as in the USA by the way), under certain procedures of course.

Not in the US; not without a charge sheet.
Once again, the only excuse might be that Russia is not a liberal democracy and heavy-handed police tactics are normal.

Show me cases in Russia where non Muslim terrorists have killed hundreds of civilians in recent years. Not just once.

Irrelevant.

You are talking out of both sides of your face. On the one hand, you deny accusing these people of being Islamist, and on the other you try to justify this action by linking it to terrorists.

Symbolic? efficient. The resources needed to arrest hundreds of people simultaneously are tremendous. Why would the FSB spend orders of magnitude more resources with a MUCH larger chance for error?
Besides, since you are advocating similar rights to all groups regardless of religion (or so I understood) what's special about a Mosque over any other building?

Addressed above. There are specific codes of conduct, and certain places (like schools, religious places, etc.) are off-limits unless there is an imminent threat.

Yes, I am sure that in all cases you take as fact any claim by an unnamed source in some random new agency. It's definitely not because in this case it aligns with your agenda.

The source is DNA-India, which attributes it to Reuters. If you don't believe it, that's not my problem.

If you can't accept or dispute specifics of the case, then take a rest instead of invoking agendas. I can also talk about your agenda, but I would rather stick to specifics of the matter.

We know that they were arrested in a mosque. It's your addition that it was during prayers.

I am going by the thread title.

P.S. Here's another source. http://www.examiner.com/article/300-muslims-170-foreigners-detained-prayer-raid-on-russian-muslims

Including the 300 Muslims that were targeted during worship services in the prayer hall, 170 foreigners were also detained. Although the exact reason for the sudden raid and detainment remains unknown, the Muslim security crackdown seems to be spurred by new governmental plans to enforce policy on radical Islamists throughout Russia.

Vladimir Putin was reportedly said telling officers in Moscow’s security force this week prior to the Muslims (all 300 that were detained) to work with harshness and consistency.

 

[DV RULES]

Russia Must Fight Ethnic Criminal Gangs, Extremism – Putin


MOSCOW, June 10 (RIA Novosti) – Russian President Vladimir Putin identified a number of key public safety concerns Monday, instructing officials to focus on extremism, ethnically aligned criminal groups and illegal migration, following a pattern in which Russian officials have been suggesting a link between the three.

“Among the key tasks facing the law enforcement authorities, I would single out … the fight against ethnic and religious extremism. We must harshly suppress the activities of organized criminal groups formed along ethnic lines,” Putin told a meeting of senior security officials, according to a transcript on the Kremlin’s website.

“We should also fully implement our decisions regarding the struggle with illegal migration, including the tightening of relevant laws,” he added a bit later.

The meeting, in which Putin also called for better road safety and concrete deliverables instead of bureaucratic jargon, focused on socioeconomic development. It was attended by the ministers of defense, interior, foreign affairs, justice and emergency situations.

Russia depends heavily on migrant laborers, mostly from former Soviet republics in Central Asia and the Caucasus, but public opinion about their effects on crime rates and employment opportunities has gotten more negative over the past decade.

The comments by Putin are the latest in a series of remarks by senior Russian officials highlighting the risks of under-regulated migration, and drawing a link between migration and extremism.

A deputy head of the Federal Security Service (FSB), Alexander Roshchupkin, warned on May 30 that illegal migration poses a national security threat as a channel for militants and foreign intelligence agents. On the same day, Moscow Mayor Sergei Sobyanin, who is seeking re-election in September, said that migrant workers should not be encouraged to settle down in the capital.

About 60 percent of Russia’s 5 million migrant workers are in the country illegally, the Federal Migration Service said in March.

Putin also called on Monday for the development of a “civilized migration policy.”

“We are ready to attract qualified foreign specialists,” he said. “But these people should be adapted to life in Russia, should know the Russian language, the history of our country, the basics of our laws, and respect our traditions.”

Ethnic tensions in Russia occasionally spill over into violence. In December 2010, a rally involving thousands of nationalists outside the Kremlin ended in mass detentions and several deaths; they had been protesting the release from police custody of a young man from the North Caucasus – a part of Russia – suspected of killing an ethnic Slav football fan.

On Saturday, three people were detained when hundreds of nationalists protested in a “day of Russian rage” in the town of Udomlya in Tver Region, not far from Moscow. The gathering followed an earlier clash between locals and people identified by police simply as “from southern Russian republics,” but, judging by comments in local online media, from the North Caucasus.

Russia Must Fight Ethnic Criminal Gangs, Extremism

 

[Battle of Kursk]

People here have confirmed that Russian law requires charges to be laid within a matter of hours.

Yes, but not to you, nor the public.

Read again.
He claimed that they are guilty without any evidence or claims by the police to that effect.

I have, lets review together shall we, you replied to this:

Quote Originally Posted by ptldM3 View Post
This is an active investigation, you are not entitled to information, just because the FSB did not call you personally and explain charges of those detained does not mean that those people are not guilty; furthermore, the act of detention is normal in almost all countries. Individuals can be detained for questioning, which means they are not under arrest but merely asked to cooperate with authorities.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/europe...00-muslims-during-prayer-5.html#ixzz2WIX1zsEQ

Where does he claims they are guilty? he does no such thing.

Quote Originally Posted by Battle of Kursk View Post
An opinion based on little.
That's the phraseology in the original article. Read it.

Not quite, the OP states that no reason was given yet, your terminology implies randomness and that no reason exists, a fine difference I know.

Read the context of the question and the answer before commenting.

Oh, I have. You repeatedly demand charges to be made public, while Russian law does not. If you went to the trouble of answering how about you add some substance to the words and clarify, if indeed I misunderstood you? It seems like your reply is designed to create confusion without actually having substance.

No, it is a fact that, in a liberal democracy, police must specify charges to detain people beyond a certain limit.

Ah yes, but irrelevant, since this is NOT what I was replying to.

You said: "Arresting 300 people in a raid is not normal behavior.

When police do such actions, there is reasonable cause given."
Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/europe...00-muslims-during-prayer-6.html#ixzz2WIZtw7JD
"
Do you retract this statement? As I've said when the police does such action it does not have to provide reason. It has to provide reason if they wish to detain farther. Can you comprehend the difference?

Unless there is probable cause (imminent threat) for such mass arrests, it violates people's right to peaceful congregation and religious practice.

Is it illegal? No, case closed. Every action made by the government is in violation of some rights. Policeman stops me to check papers? violation of free movement right. Takes taxes? violation of property rights, etc. A government cannot act without violating rights. It is only the balance that matters.

Not in the US; not without a charge sheet.

I see you have a habit to pretend you know about the subject and pass opinion as fact.
This is plain wrong, source:

WASHINGTON, June 14, 2013 ― Despite the efforts of Libety Republicans in the House of Representatives, an amendment to the 2014 NDAA bill that would have prohibited the indefinite detention of U.S. citizens without due process was defeated by a narrow margin today.

Effort to block indefinite detention (NDAA) fails in U.S. House | Washington Times Communities

Text of H.R. 4310 (112th): National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2013 (Passed Congress/Enrolled Bill version) - GovTrack.us

You are talking out of both sides of your face. On the one hand, you deny accusing these people of being Islamist, and on the other you try to justify this action by linking it to terrorists.

I am not justifying anything that isn't legal. I have said before that in this specific case I prefer to wait and see what's the out come before formulating an opinion whether it was the right move.
People here are focusing on the fact that those guys are Muslims rather than RF citizens YOU have asked for similar cases of mass detentions of non Muslims. I have given a possible reason for the lack of non Muslim similar cases in that non Muslims tend less to practice mass killings in Russia in recent years. This is only a possibility, no where have I claimed this is THE reason.
I was NOT the one to play the religion card, if you focus on religion than others are going to as well.
Lets be clear, I am not justifying different treatment to Muslims because they are Muslims.

Addressed above. There are specific codes of conduct, and certain places (like schools, religious places, etc.) are off-limits unless there is an imminent threat.

I don't get it, can you help me? Are you saying that the raid was illegal? The codes are determined by the country, not by your arbitrary opinion, and there are laws to enforce this.

The source is DNA-India, which attributes it to Reuters. If you don't believe it, that's not my problem.

If you can't accept or dispute specifics of the case, then take a rest instead of invoking agendas. I can also talk about your agenda, but I would rather stick to specifics of the matter.

yes, the source is a news paper, but what is their source? We can brake this down to something very simple:

Do you take as fact any claims made by unnamed official which is quoted in a news paper?

If you say yes than I'm taking this no farther, except something to keep in mind for future discussion.

The comment about agenda was indeed inappropriate, I apologize

 

[ptldM3]

Back to the good old KGB days, eh? Straight to the gulag...

When you come up with an argument that has substance and facts come talk, otherwise don't wast anyone's time with your emotional one liners that discredit the efforts of people that work hard to keep others safe.

That's not the way it works in civilized societies. People are innocent until proven guilty.
Police must state what the charges are for detaining people beyond a limited time.

Do you know how long any of the individuals were detained? Do you know why they were detained? Do you even know the Russian legal system? You are ignorant to all of these yet you continue to pretend you as if you somehow know all of these things.


Since you keep using the 'west' as a poster-child when it comes to detention laws we will take a look at the United States. This is how ignorant you are--if a police officer stops a vehicle and he finds drugs in the vehicle or even on one individual in the vehicle then he can detain all of the people in the vehicle even if they refuse to talk. Even better if all deny that the drugs belong to them, then all of the people in the vehicle will be charged for possession of illegal narcotics.

The authorities just rounded up a bunch of people and will "check for extremist content".

What have we learned about my example about detaining people from a vehicle with narcotics in it? The police/FSB were looking for specific people in that mosque this is evident in a video where they ask one of the men in the mosque if another man (someone wanted by the FSB) was in the mosque, the man lied to authorities, something referred to in the west as obstructing Justice, this alone is punishable by jail time.

Let's also look at another example, in the United States if the police spot a vehicle that matches the description of a vehicle believed to be involved in a robbery or any other type of crime, the police will make every occupant get out of the vehicle at gun point, handcuff each person in the vehicle and question every person (if they refuse to speak to police they will be placed under arrest on suspicion of being involved in the crime).

So how is a mosque any different to a vehicle? Should people be granted special exemptions just because they are in a mosque? Something else to think about, if certain people in the mosque are wanted then why is it unreasonable to temporarily detain every person to check their documents? How else will you find your suspect(s)? it not always easy to find a person from a photo, especially if they aged or changed appearances.

I want authorities to explain why 300 people were detained in a mass raid. Were all 300 involved in a massive conspiracy?

What would you do if you were in charge of the raid? Suppose you were looking for wanted terrorists, and everyone in the mosque started to scatter once authorities arrived, you gonna let everyone just flee? What if the photos are outdated or the suspect(s) changed appearances, are you going to not ask for identification? Or will you take people's word when they tell you they are not the suspect.

It's people that think like you that allow 2,000-2,500 terrorist acts to happen each year in Pakistan and people that think like myself that prevent hundreds of attacks a year.

Giving credible reasons does not blow anyone's cover -- no one's asking for specific details.

you have been doing exactly that. You want to know what every person has been charged with, so not only do you want specific names but specific charges, on top of that you want to know how the FSB got their information.

How many of these 300 people were involved in a shootout?

Some very well could have been responsible for shootouts or car bombs, but that is not the point. The point is when the FSB comes to confront many of the people that they investigate the end result is a shootout. These people aren't as innocent as you make them out to be and the FSB is a lot more knowledgable then you want to admit.

Oh, I know, these are non-Russian ethnics and they all look alike, so better be safe and round them up just in case.

Thank god you are not in law enforcement. If an airliners full of middle eastern passengers is hijacked by middle eastern terrorists, then guess what happens when the aircraft is raided?

 

[Developereo]

When you come up with an argument that has substance and facts come talk, otherwise don't wast anyone's time with your emotional one liners that discredit the efforts of people that work hard to keep others safe.

Wrong. I am bringing a reality check to your and other people's attempt to brush everything under the carpet.

Do you know how long any of the individuals were detained? Do you know why they were detained? Do you even know the Russian legal system? You are ignorant to all of these yet you continue to pretend you as if you somehow know all of these things.

In all three raids, police did not give any specific reason for detention at the time. Most of the people were subsequently released, indicating that they were not complicit in any serious crime.

Since you keep using the 'west' as a poster-child when it comes to detention laws we will take a look at the United States. This is how ignorant you are--if a police officer stops a vehicle and he finds drugs in the vehicle or even on one individual in the vehicle then he can detain all of the people in the vehicle even if they refuse to talk. Even better if all deny that the drugs belong to them, then all of the people in the vehicle will be charged for possession of illegal narcotics.

No, it is YOU who's got it all wrong.

I have repeatedly used the phrase "probable cause" in my posts. In the narcotics example, the drugs or vehicle description are probable cause to detain suspects. In this example. the police did not give any probable cause.

Read the news reports instead of making things up.

What have we learned about my example about detaining people from a vehicle with narcotics in it?

That you are ignorant about legal process in the West.

So how is a mosque any different to a vehicle?

Already explained above. Unless there is imminent danger, police do not raid schools, mosques and churches.
There is no indication that there was any imminent danger here, so there was no reason to arrest people during prayers.

Suppose you were looking for wanted terrorists,

Because the police were NOT looking for wanted terrorists. The news reports are clear that these raids are largely about nabbing illegal migrants. That's why most of the people get released.

If police were looking for specific terrorists, how did they end up detaining 300 people and then releasing most of them? Is the FSB letting terrorists run free in the country, or was the initial detention bogus in the first place?

It's people that think like you that allow 2,000-2,500 terrorist acts to happen each year in Pakistan and people that think like myself that prevent hundreds of attacks a year.

Authorities in the West also manage to prevent terrorist acts without these tactics used by Russian police.

you have been doing exactly that. You want to know what every person has been charged with, so not only do you want specific names but specific charges, on top of that you want to know how the FSB got their information.

In your hallucinations.

I wanted to know on what pretext hundreds of people keep getting detained during prayers over and over (three times this year), only to be released later because there is no serious crime involved.

Some very well could have been responsible for shootouts or car bombs, but that is not the point. The point is when the FSB comes to confront many of the people that they investigate the end result is a shootout. These people aren't as innocent as you make them out to be and the FSB is a lot more knowledgable then you want to admit.

Coulda woulda shoulda. You are arguing backwards from your own assumption.

Thank god you are not in law enforcement.

This is not about law enforcement, but about Putin's charade at the expense of ethnic minorities.

Western law enforcement also manage to protect their citizens without resorting to the tactics used by Russian police.

 

[Audio]

Western law enforcement also manage to protect their citizens without resorting to the tactics used by Russian police.

With programmes called Echelon, Prism etc....

 

[Vinod2070]

The siege mentality and seeing conspiracies everywhere is not going to help anyone.

If most of them were released, it shows the process was fair and those not guilty were released soon.

You need to take precautionary measures during times of threat.

If it was a conspiracy, they would have been framed regardless of their complicity in any crime.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Sure thing Sir.

Russia is not a paragon of human rights either, and a due process that is not followed is as good as non-existent.

My friend, I am contesting a case in which my family has won a judgement from High Court in 2003. The other party appealed in Supreme court and got a directive that the case ought to be heard by a Divisional Bench instead of a single judge and that the case be concluded as soon as possible. That was 10 years ago. Aitzaz Ahsan is their lawyer and he has never once appeared in High Court subsequently. He can not defend a fraud, so he would rather delay matters to an extreme.

So I am looking at a situation where 'Rule of Law' is used to subvert justice. No wonder Taliban have some local support. I do not support them. But I do understand that may people are sick and tired of British inspired Byzantine system of jurisprudence in Pakistan.

We Pakistanis really should not point fingers at others. We support corruption, or at least tolerate it, and then we have the guts (or hypocrisy) to blame others.

 

[I-LEK]

You do know that there are ethnic Russians who are Muslim?

I know of. I know these people), I can send you here are hundreds of sites)))