Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

[Awesome]

Still Rd 93 is a proven engine when compared to the WS 13 which is still in its infancy stages. This gives the JF 17 a better sales pitch. This is what the Russians are using as an advantage. They want to sell more of the MiG 29s as fast as they can as they are moving towards fifth gen aircrafts.

The RD-93 still costs $2.5Mn worth to the $15Mn tag the Chinese put on the JF-17. You know what comes off as a better sales pitch when you're advertising a cheap and effective fighter? Cheaper price.

Cutting off Half a million can go a long way when selling to a 3rd world country in desperate need of a multi-role fighter.

I'm not downplaying the significance of losing a tried and tested engine - But re-export of JF-17 is a good few years away after Pakistan's needs have been met. Plenty of time to try and test the WS-13. The Chinese have been spot on with delivering the tech, as per the requirements presented to them. I won't pin a failure on them till they actually fail.

 

[Awesome]

Also note, if anything - by Russia's own admission this whole fiasco has put the JF-17/FC-1 at par with the Mig-29.

That should help sell the thunder

 

[ptldM3]

Also note, if anything - by Russia's own admission this whole fiasco has put the JF-17/FC-1 at par with the Mig-29.
That should help sell the thunder

As per reports the JF-17's price could threaten the Mig-29's sales potential. However, i have not read any reports which claimed that the JF-17 is on par with the Mig-29, did Mikoyan release a statement in this regard?

 

[WAQAS119]

As per reports the JF-17's price could threaten the Mig-29's sales potential. However, i have not read any reports which claimed that the JF-17 is on par with the Mig-29, did Mikoyan release a statement in this regard?

No need of any specific statement!
All fuss that has been created by Russians is enough to prove JF 17's capabilities.
BTW thank you Russians for giving limelight to our beloved JF17.

 

[TaimiKhan]

As per reports the JF-17's price could threaten the Mig-29's sales potential. However, i have not read any reports which claimed that the JF-17 is on par with the Mig-29, did Mikoyan release a statement in this regard?

Countries who want real defence capabilities, do not look at price of weapon systems, rather go for capabilities & specifications.

Egypt being a serious defence related country would have definitely gone for MiG-29 if it had seen something in it, neglecting the price.

What's the use of a low priced fighter which later on can not defend the Egyptian air space.

Russians initially gave clearance for RD-93 to be re-exported as they know the FC-1 of that time will never come close to MiG-29, as it would be a cheap fighter thus its capability would also be cheap, but as time has told us, its not only a cheap fighter, it has also some impressive capabilities and things which suit the EAF more.

Russians knew from start it would be a cheap fighter, then why did they gave permission for re-export ?? They could have given permission for re-export to just Pakistan, but if it agreed for other countries, it means, it thought of it as something negligible which will not be worth the price, but their stoppage means, they not only fear FC-1 to be a cheap fighter, but also a potent fighter, capable enough to take on Russian export orders based on quality, and not just price.

 

[aliyusuf]

but isnt the initial agreement between China and Russia that covers these 150 engines allow reexport to 6 countries including egypt? Thats what I gathered from all the posts around that. And the deal is between Russia and China. Dont think Pakistan is a party to that..

---------- Post added at 06:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 AM ----------



Just google it..

I did. There are a number of sites stating this. But they all allude to a statement emanating from Moscow on Dec 23 2009. Not a single Burmese or neutral corroboration thus far.

 

[Manticore]

As per reports the JF-17's price could threaten the Mig-29's sales potential. However, i have not read any reports which claimed that the JF-17 is on par with the Mig-29, did Mikoyan release a statement in this regard?

quality speaks for itself... if they had such a superior aircraft , with outstanding specifications , as compared to jf17, they wouldnt have felt threatened in anyway

the cost is another matter, no country gets an inferior aircraft if a better one is available to them -- irrespective of cost


eygypt is setting the production line,
it might be our first jf17 deal ,
we are selling to a brothren state ,
cheap labour==== all these factors decrease the cost of the aircraft.. after the first sale, who knows how much pricehike we will see in the jf17

 

[anathema]

Egypt being a serious defence related country would have definitely gone for MiG-29 if it had seen something in it, neglecting the price.

Was egypt considering Mig 29 ?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Was egypt considering Mig 29 ?

See the future requirements section in this page:

Egyptian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And this old news:

Daily News Egypt - Full Article


So it seems at that time the Russians had no problem with RD-93s as FC-1 was not in the picture, but since the news that Egypt was in talks with Pakistan for possible sale of JF-17s, it seems the Russians have awoken up and banning the sale to give its MiG-29 a fighting chance.

 

[Peregrine]

Hi
I cant help thinking that some how Chinese anticipated this attitude of Russians, No wonder they had started working on WS-13 long ago, I am glad that we have Chinese working on JF-17 thunder project, if it was for Pakistani's alone who knows after this ban on sale of RD-93 where would we wind up, as Pakistani policy makers have always lacked far sightedness. Anyways, WS-13 was already going to replace RD-93 so no harm done. its more like Pizzahut says that they wont serve you after 12 A.M but you don't need to worry when you have got Dominos Pizza to serve you from 12 & onwards

 

[Awesome]

As per reports the JF-17's price could threaten the Mig-29's sales potential. However, i have not read any reports which claimed that the JF-17 is on par with the Mig-29, did Mikoyan release a statement in this regard?

A Toyota Yaris's price does not affect the sales of a Merc S500. However a BMW 7 Series' low price would affect its sales.

Trust me, if the Chinese get an operational engine up and running nothing else would matter now the JF-17 has branded as a Mig-29 competitor for good now and it will beat it in price.

The Russians should've moved on to bigger and better things like the US has and leave the low end market for smaller players like China and Pakistan. This whole incident is quite petty and does make China look like the more graceful businessman to deal with.

 

[anathema]

See the future requirements section in this page:

Egyptian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And this old news:

Daily News Egypt - Full Article


So it seems at that time the Russians had no problem with RD-93s as FC-1 was not in the picture, but since the news that Egypt was in talks with Pakistan for possible sale of JF-17s, it seems the Russians have awoken up and banning the sale to give its MiG-29 a fighting chance.

Taimi,

Doest make sense.

Egypt has been a pro western nation in terms of weapon procurement. Why would they go for Mig 29 ? Also what would mig 29 replace --- F16? which is its peer.....

Why would then even consider russian mig 29 when they have access to F16 block 52 and in future F35 ?

I dont think Egypt was even remotely interested in mig 29 and russians should also know this. I think Russia is worried about some other market where JF 17 might make an impact -- this has got nothing to do with Egypt.

On other hand -- it would be a nightmare of any weapon selling country that a low priced JF 17 which is offering decent capabilities is being sold more -- Russia understands this and may be is trying to delay the inevitable !

 

[SpArK]

A Toyota Yaris's price does not affect the sales of a Merc S500. However a BMW 7 Series' low price would affect its sales.

There are thousands of models of car to choose from but only a handful of jets for sale to choose. So a comparison between 2 are illogical.

 

[ptldM3]

Countries who want real defence capabilities, do not look at price of weapon systems, rather go for capabilities & specifications.


Egypt being a serious defence related country would have definitely gone for MiG-29 if it had seen something in it, neglecting the price. .

Every country is serious about its defence, sometimes price becomes the main reason in the final decision making, especially in these economic times.

What's the use of a low priced fighter which later on can not defend the Egyptian air space. .

All aircraft can defend airspace, the question is to what extent. Pilots, docrine, and of course aircraft is the determining factors in gaining air superiority.

What we're talking about is one aircraft being on par with the other, looking at the Mig-29 we can see that it has had time to mature over the last few decades and as so even older downgraded versions of the Mig-29 have proven that they can defeat F-16's and F-18 in mock combat (I'm talking about the German Mig-29's). You also have to remember that the Mig-35 is just a fancy name for the Mig-29 and as so it qualifies as a Mig-29, further, avionics from the Mig-35 are finding their way into regular Mig-29's bar 35. Looking at the Mig-29's specs and avionics it can challenge just about any fighter and I'm not trying to insult anyone, but the JF-17 lags behind the Mig-29 in several departments, and i know what people will say, the Mig-29 is only ahead on paper but the F-22 is also only ahead on paper. Perhaps in the furture the gap will close but for now the JF-17 has not matured enough to be on par with the latest Mig-29, now do not get me wrong, a well flow JF-17 with awacs support can acheive kills against many 4th generation fighters such as the Mig-29, Rafale, F-16 ect but whether or not it is on par with the fighters is another story.

Russians initially gave clearance for RD-93 to be re-exported as they know the FC-1 of that time will never come close to MiG-29, as it would be a cheap fighter thus its capability would also be cheap, but as time has told us, its not only a cheap fighter, it has also some impressive capabilities and things which suit the EAF more.

Russians knew from start it would be a cheap fighter, then why did they gave permission for re-export ?? They could have given permission for re-export to just Pakistan, but if it agreed for other countries, it means, it thought of it as something negligible which will not be worth the price, but their stoppage means, they not only fear FC-1 to be a cheap fighter, but also a potent fighter, capable enough to take on Russian export orders based on quality, and not just price.

Policies and decisions change, as do the people that make them, the JF-17 can steal potential sales of the Mig-29, F-16 and many other platforms. In my opinion, the person that allowed the JF-17 with RD-93's to be exported to contries outside of Pakistan was a fool.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

There are thousands of models of car to choose from but only a handful of jets for sale to choose. So a comparison between 2 are illogical.

the right example is
if I have hundred thousand $, I can buy one expensive car or three mid price cars.