Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

[karan.1970]

India drag themselves into this, they were Indians who were dancing with joy, when they first heard of Russians blocking the engines for JF-17s. Now that the status quo is changed, we are getting much better engines, so now you are saying dont drag India?? Smart

Every action have an equal and opposite reaction

A question though.. Why is it that the whole story of WS 13 is being talked about once Russians took this step? Now if WS 13 is as good as being claimed and so near completion, then China would have anyway discontinued the purchase of RD 93 in a couple of years and there is no way Pak-China would have used up all the 150 engines that you already seem to have. So there would have been no addnl purchases of RD 93 planned from the russians anyway. Hence its really a non issue.

Now if WS 13 is a little further away from reality than what most people on this forum believe, then its a different story.

 

[IceCold]

A question though.. Why is it that the whole story of WS 13 is being talked about once Russians took this step? Now if WS 13 is as good as being claimed and so near completion, then China would have anyway discontinued the purchase of RD 93 in a couple of years and there is no way Pak-China would have used up all the 150 engines that you already seem to have. So there would have been no addnl purchases of RD 93 planned from the russians anyway. Hence its really a non issue.

Now if WS 13 is a little further away from reality than what most people on this forum believe, then its a different story.

Isn't it obvious that once the sale of something gets stopped people will talk about alternatives. RD-93 was more like a stop gap until WS-13 gets fully matured to be installed on a single engine jet. Besides lets not forget that it is only recently that WS-13 has successfully completed taxi trails on JF-17 which shows that the progress in on track.
Better or not well time will tell as its too early to speculate however the performance of RD-93 also wasnt up to the expectations of the PAF.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

A question though.. Why is it that the whole story of WS 13 is being talked about once Russians took this step? Now if WS 13 is as good as being claimed and so near completion, then China would have anyway discontinued the purchase of RD 93 in a couple of years and there is no way Pak-China would have used up all the 150 engines that you already seem to have. So there would have been no addnl purchases of RD 93 planned from the russians anyway. Hence its really a non issue.

Now if WS 13 is a little further away from reality than what most people on this forum believe, then its a different story.

Leaving aside the enthusiasm over the WS-13, the Pakistani JF-17 production program was in fact delayed by over two years because of financial constraints. Eventually it was a $600 million long term loan from China that allowed the execution of the contract and Pakistani production to take place.

So when you look at plans revolving around the JF-17, keep in mind that they were conceived with a much earlier production start date in mind. If the original date had been met, the two countries would have utilized a significantly larger number of the RD-93's, and assuming the expected date for the WS-13 has not changed since then, the 150 RD-93's were a good decision to cover a much larger JF-17 fleet by this time.

 

[karan.1970]

Isn't it obvious that once the sale of something gets stopped people will talk about alternatives. RD-93 was more like a stop gap until WS-13 gets fully matured to be installed on a single engine jet. Besides lets not forget that it is only recently that WS-13 has successfully completed taxi trails on JF-17 which shows that the progress in on track.
Better or not well time will tell as its too early to speculate however the performance of RD-93 also wasnt up to the expectations of the PAF.

Thats exactly what I am saying. If WS-13 is as near completion as being discussed, then China - Pakistan already have enough stock of RD 93's to last till the time it matures enough to be used as an alternative and hence no addnl RD 93 would have been procured anyway.

 

[Koga Ryu]

This what i found which way different then people who are making big fuss about it.

20:07 05/07/2010MOSCOW, July 5 (RIA Novosti) - Russian aircraft makers MiG and Sukhoi have spoken against the sale of RD-93 jet engines to China citing the threat of strong competition from cheaper Chinese models of fighter aircraft.

Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport planned to sign a contract with China on the delivery of 100 RD-93 engines for FC-1 fighters, which are direct competitors of the famed MiG-29 Fulcrum aircraft.

Mikhail Pogosyan, the head of the MiG and Sukhoi corporations, said the re-export of technologies must be approved by the original manufacturers to avoid unfair competition.

The FC-1 Xiaolong (Fierce Dragon) is a single-engine multi-role fighter aircraft developed jointly by China and Pakistan. It is designated as JF-17 Thunder by Pakistan.

A Russian aircraft industry source said the FC-1 is inferior to MiG-29 in performance, but sells for about $10 million, while the price of a MiG-29 is about $35 mln.

MiG-29s are currently competing with FC-1s in an Egyptian tender on the delivery of 32 fighters. In addition, Egypt has launched negotiations with Pakistan on the licensed production of FC-1 aircraft.

Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) approved the re-export of RD-93 engines to Egypt as part of the FC-1 fighter package in November 2007.

Rosoboronexport has said a decision to allow the re-export of technology could be made only by the government, and the manufacturers have never been consulted on the issue.

Russian weapons manufacturers are also facing increasing competition from China on other arms markets.

Russian S-300 and Chinese HQ-9 air defense systems have been competing in a Turkish tender since 2007.

Russian and Chinese armored personnel carriers competed in an Indonesian tender in 2007.

In 2009, Myanmar chose Russian Mig-29s over Chinese J-10s and FC-1s.

Russia has also accused China of producing its own copycat versions of some Russian-made weaponry, including the Su-27SK fighter jet, in violation of intellectual property agreements

 

[karan.1970]

Leaving aside the enthusiasm over the WS-13, the Pakistani JF-17 production program was in fact delayed by over two years because of financial constraints. Eventually it was a $600 million long term loan from China that allowed the execution of the contract and Pakistani production to take place.

So when you look at plans revolving around the JF-17, keep in mind that they were conceived with a much earlier production start date in mind. If the original date had been met, the two countries would have utilized a significantly larger number of the RD-93's, and assuming the expected date for the WS-13 has not changed since then, the 150 RD-93's were a good decision to cover a much larger JF-17 fleet by this time.

True, but that's not the case at this time which gives China-Pakistan enough stock of engines to last them till the time WS 13 matures anyway (based on the reports here). Which means no addnl RD 93's were required. So what is Russia stopping here??

 

[oct605032048]

competition from Indian defense industry? oh my lady gaga... your friend in Russia may feel sorry

 

[Frankenstein]

India never dragged itself into this. Is there any official comment on this from the Indian government? And you are getting an engine called RD 93...the WS 13 will come to you only after all the tests are finished and the engine is certified which is a good 2-3 long years as it has just done it's taxi trials. Perhaps in your second or third batch.

A few over-zealous Indians have been ranting about it and no sane Indian has spoken any word against it. So is it you who is over reacting or me? Hell even the Russian government hasnt decided yet...who the hell are we to tell the RD 93 has already been blocked? It was Mr. Pyogosan, the chief of the UAC who has written to the government and is still awaiting the final answer and many people have already jumped into conclusions? All the UAC (not Russia yet) wants to do is protect it's business interests in the other markets.

Well I have moved away from the Newtonian past....And for me money and my interests counts.

yeah rite few, and yes there were some couple of sane members I came across in this thread, the rest were on high

Thats what i said before, Russians are doing it for their interest why the hell are Indians yapping about and you think that i am over reacting, replying to rants isnt over reacting bud.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Thats exactly what I am saying. If WS-13 is as near completion as being discussed, then China - Pakistan already have enough stock of RD 93's to last till the time it matures enough to be used as an alternative and hence no addnl RD 93 would have been procured anyway.

The RD-93 'stock' is for the Pakistani JF-17's, which are not the subject of the Russian concerns per the article posted. The Russian concerns revolve around exports of the JF-17 with the RD-93 to other nations like Egypt apparently, and I do not believe there is a 'stock' of RD-93's lying around for those exports - those exports to Egypt and others, presumably, were to be covered by the order of another 100 RD-93's.

 

[oct605032048]

That "Myanmar chose Russian Mig-29s over Chinese J-10s and FC-1s" is a false news. Because china will not export J-10 right now and in the near future .

You can't just say "Myanmar chose Russian Mig-29s over US's F-22 and Chinese FC-1."

 

[karan.1970]

The RD-93 'stock' is for the Pakistani JF-17's, which are not the subject of the Russian concerns per the article posted. The Russian concerns revolve around exports of the JF-17 with the RD-93 to other nations like Egypt apparently, and I do not believe there is a 'stock' of RD-93's lying around for those exports - those exports to Egypt and others, presumably, were to be covered by the order of another 100 RD-93's.

Here's how I was calculating. The initial order of 150 RD 93's would take atleast 5 years to exhaust (considering 20+ JF 17s every year and 30-40 engines as spares). Now if WS 13 is going to be ready in next 2-3 years, then why would JF 17s after that time want to use the old RD 93 with 10% less thrust. So some of the RD 93s could be used to service any possible export orders (since the original deal with Russia allows reexport to Egypt etc)

 

[karan.1970]

That "Myanmar chose Russian Mig-29s over Chinese J-10s and FC-1s" is a false news. Because china will not export J-10 right now and in the near future .

You can't just say "Myanmar chose Russian Mig-29s over US's F-22 and Chinese FC-1."

Some news sources seem to disagree...

Myanmar to buy 20 MiG-29 fighters for $570 mln - paper | Business | RIA Novosti

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Here's how I was calculating. The initial order of 150 RD 93's would take atleast 5 years to exhaust (considering 20+ JF 17s every year and 30-40 engines as spares). Now if WS 13 is going to be ready in next 2-3 years, then why would JF 17s after that time want to use the old RD 93 with 10% less thrust. So some of the RD 93s could be used to service any possible export orders (since the original deal with Russia allows reexport to Egypt etc)

I don't think it is a good idea to sell an aircraft with an engine for which the supplies of spare parts might be an issue. That would in fact be a major concern on the part of the client.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

I don't think it is a good idea to sell an aircraft with an engine for which the supplies of spare parts might be an issue. That would in fact be a major concern on the part of the client.

Well the aircrafts are bought with spare engines always. It is not like you cannibalise the engine for spares. In case of emergency in a full blown war replacing the engine consumes less time when compared to repairing it. That is what he meant by that. sometimes in case of bird hits the whole engine might even get destroyed at that time the spare engine will be replaced till the new engine arrives instead of grounding the airplane till the new engine arrives.

 

[HAIDER]

My analysis, even Russian put embargo on engine is totally pointless. Damage is done. Plane has already been tested by different countries, buyers are out their. Already beat price and maintenance ratio of Mig29. Frame is ready, now Chinese has to launch the engine early as possible, because of market demand.