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Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

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I don't think it is a good idea to sell an aircraft with an engine for which the supplies of spare parts might be an issue. That would in fact be a major concern on the part of the client.
You guys are counting on exports because it'll bring down overall costs for you later on. Re export restrictions will have it's implications, if not in actual nos. of sqadrons inducted with the said engine, at least on the cost...royalties and additional earnings from exports etc. would bring down your overall investments over a long horizon
 
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when ws-13 will be ready for extensive flight tests

need help of elite Chinese members

:china::pakistan::china::pakistan::china:
 
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I don't think it is a good idea to sell an aircraft with an engine for which the supplies of spare parts might be an issue. That would in fact be a major concern on the part of the client.

It all really boils down to the expected time to market for the WS 13 and Chinese confidence in the same. If we are talking 2-3 years, wont really matter since 150 engines would be enough and more considering the assembly line capacity in china/Pakistan for these planes. If on the other hand, this time period is unknown, then its a different issue..
 
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Well the aircrafts are bought with spare engines always. It is not like you cannibalise the engine for spares. In case of emergency in a full blown war replacing the engine consumes less time when compared to repairing it. That is what he meant by that. sometimes in case of bird hits the whole engine might even get destroyed at that time the spare engine will be replaced till the new engine arrives instead of grounding the airplane till the new engine arrives.

When I referred to spares, I was referring to anything related to the engines. Point being that you can't market an aircraft with an engine that may not have spares available.
 
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You guys are counting on exports because it'll bring down overall costs for you later on. Re export restrictions will have it's implications, if not in actual nos. of sqadrons inducted with the said engine, at least on the cost...royalties and additional earnings from exports etc. would bring down your overall investments over a long horizon

Exports have the same implications for overall cost of the program regardless of which country is involved. Key areas of improvement in future batches of the JF-17, however, already have R&D being conducted.

Yes, if the Russians do in fact withhold engines for re-export to countries like Egypt, export proceeds will be impacted till such time as the WS-13 is considered viable by export customers. But time will tell on that count.
 
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It all really boils down to the expected time to market for the WS 13 and Chinese confidence in the same. If we are talking 2-3 years, wont really matter since 150 engines would be enough and more considering the assembly line capacity in china/Pakistan for these planes. If on the other hand, this time period is unknown, then its a different issue..

Negotiations with the Egyptians are occurring now, so they will have to be satisfied with whatever engine choices are available. If the WS-13 has a couple more years to go, I am not sure the Egyptians will wait. Pakistan cannot use its own stocks of the RD-93 to supply the Egyptians because that would be a violation of the re-export contract with the Russians (IF they do enforce re-export restrictions), and therefore would likely result in a cancellation of future RD-93's to Pakistan. Pakistan cannot take that chance since even with the WS-13 coming on board in the future, the existing RD-93's will not be replaced until the outlive their operational life (we don't have money to just throw around swapping out engines when new ones become available), so they will need spares etc.
 
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I heard somewhere that the F-100 can also fit into the JF..with a few modifications.. apparently that was in the design parameters.
If so, selling to egypt should then be no issue, just have them use the F-100.
 
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I heard somewhere that the F-100 can also fit into the JF..with a few modifications.. apparently that was in the design parameters.
If so, selling to egypt should then be no issue, just have them use the F-100.

F-100 if i am not mistaken is a US engine. Putting it inside a Chinese made machine will be a big no by Uncle SAM even for Egypt imo.
 
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Russians have provided WRITTEN GUARANTEES to China and Pakistan that RD-93 sale will NOT be blocked for any reason. Russians always knew that FC-1 is primarily for PAF and export and today even Chinese are planning to induct 150 in specialized ground attack role replacing Q-5s. The guarantees were repeated by Russian foreign minister who clearly stated that engines will be provided without any hurdles. Mr. Putin himself assured. What more assurances do skeptics need to see after this??

Mark my words folks, there is no hurdle in engine supply and this fabricated news is brought up many times in the past such as in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008.........and now again. The concern of a company official is not the official stance of a country's Government. If Russia ever attempts such a move in the future, it will have to go through deep crisis as China is still the largest buyer of Russian military equipment.

Again, this piece of news is bogus and has no basis.
 
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Negotiations with the Egyptians are occurring now, so they will have to be satisfied with whatever engine choices are available. If the WS-13 has a couple more years to go, I am not sure the Egyptians will wait. Pakistan cannot use its own stocks of the RD-93 to supply the Egyptians because that would be a violation of the re-export contract with the Russians (IF they do enforce re-export restrictions), and therefore would likely result in a cancellation of future RD-93's to Pakistan. Pakistan cannot take that chance since even with the WS-13 coming on board in the future, the existing RD-93's will not be replaced until the outlive their operational life (we don't have money to just throw around swapping out engines when new ones become available), so they will need spares etc.

but isnt the initial agreement between China and Russia that covers these 150 engines allow reexport to 6 countries including egypt? Thats what I gathered from all the posts around that. And the deal is between Russia and China. Dont think Pakistan is a party to that..

---------- Post added at 06:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 AM ----------

Is there a non-Russian source to corroborate this?

Regards

Just google it..
 
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but isnt the initial agreement between China and Russia that covers these 150 engines allow reexport to 6 countries including egypt? Thats what I gathered from all the posts around that. And the deal is between Russia and China. Dont think Pakistan is a party to that..

---------- Post added at 06:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 AM ----------



Just google it..


The engines from Russia are not a must we can live with out em we will get better one even more lethal ones
 
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BUSINESS
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2010


Jane's Defence Weekly

Russia stalls on contract to supply China with fighter engines

Keri Wagstaff-Smith Jane's Industry Reporter - London

Key Points
Head of MiG and Sukhoi said a deal with Russian state-owned Rosoboronexport would encourage competition from cheaper Chinese FC-1 fighter

MiG-29s are currently competing with FC-1s in an Egyptian tender



Russia has suspended the signing of a contract to supply 100 RD-93 jet engines to China following protests from the head of Russian fighter manufactures MiG and Sukhoi, according to reports.

Citing Russian business daily Kommersant , a 5 July report by the Hindustan Times said that the contract to sell the engines to China was due to be signed with China in May this year.

According to a separate report by Russian state news service RIA Novosti, Mikhail Pogosyan, the director general of both MiG and Sukhoi protested against the sale - by state-owned arms exporter Rosoboronexport - of the jet engines to China, saying it would lead to stronger competition from China's cheaper FC-1 fighters, which are direct competitors of the MiG-29 Fulcrum aircraft.

"A Russian aircraft industry source said the FC-1 is inferior to MiG-29 in performance, but sells for about USD10 million, while the price of a MiG-29 is about USD35 million," said RIA Novosti.

It added that Pogosyan said the re-export of technologies must be approved by the original manufacturers to avoid unfair competition. However, Rosoboronexport said that a decision to allow the re-export of technology "could be made only by the government", and that the manufacturers have "never been consulted on the issue".

The FC-1 Xiaolong ('Fierce Dragon') is a single-engine multi-role fighter aircraft developed jointly by China and Pakistan. It is designated JF-17 'Thunder' by the Pakistan Air Force.

MiG-29s are currently competing with FC-1s in an Egyptian tender on the delivery of 32 fighters, according to the report. In addition, Egypt has launched negotiations with Pakistan on the licensed production of FC-1 aircraft.

The Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation approved the re-export of RD-93 engines to Egypt as part of the FC-1 fighter package in November 2007.

RIA Novosti noted that Russian weapons manufacturers are facing increasing competition from China. For example, Russian S-300 and Chinese HQ-9 surface-to-air missile systems have been competing in a Turkish tender since 2007, while Russian and Chinese armoured personnel carriers competed in an Indonesian tender in 2007.

Jane's has previously reported that China's military aircraft industry has been steadily developing a line of products that would allow it to compete with Russia and other countries on world markets. There have also been commensurate advancements in China in weapon systems, radars and sensors, avionics and state-of-the-art 'glass' cockpit configurations.

In November 2009, executives from China's National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation said they were unhappy with the unwillingness of Russia to sell them some of its latest products, such as the Sukhoi Su-35.

COMMENT

Despite the competition and apparent cooling of relations between the two countries, China remains an important market for the export of Russian defence equipment, as well as for business centred around civilian nuclear energy.

Russia is likely to remain China's main source of military technology for the immediate future and has previously taken advantage of Western trade sanctions against Beijing, securing contracts to supply the Chinese military with high-technology combat equipment to China, including Su-27 long-range interceptor jet aircraft, in-flight refuelling tankers and conventional submarines.

According to Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments , a series of military equipment systems that Moscow has allowed China to produce under licence include the Kilo-class submarine, the Su-27 combat aircraft and the Il-76 transport aircraft.

However, for some time, Russia has looked to securing a strong presence in other markets such as north Africa and Latin America - for example, by taking advantage of the United States' decision in 2007 to impose an arms embargo on Venezuela - in anticipation of a decline in exports to China and India. Both those countries accounted for about 60 per cent of export sales each year in the middle of the past decade, compared to only 20-30 per cent of sales at present.

Jane's has previously noted that significant challenges for Russia in terms of meeting export orders lie in whether or not it has the ability to modernise its defence industrial base.

This latest development apparantly does not effect the delivery of the RD-93 engines which power the FC-1 (designated JF-17 in Pakistan) being co-produced by China and Pakistan.
 
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