Russia blocks RD-93 to Pakistan?

[Bull]

Mairaj mian......no need to go into mulla mode anymore. Just take it like a man....and next time advise your impressionable ppl to avoid an American or CIA sponsored 'wahabbi' jihad.

Here is a local paindoo source for the reality check:

http://paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?166846

Why is that, all your posts are full of insults and taunts.

 

[Mercenary]

Mairaj mian......no need to go into mulla mode anymore. Just take it like a man....and next time advise your impressionable ppl to avoid an American or CIA sponsored 'wahabbi' jihad.

Here is a local paindoo source for the reality check:

http://paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?166846

What is your ethnic background lulldapull?

 

[lulldapull]

Easy now......

Its not my fault if Russia decided against supplying an enemy country.

 

[Bull]

Easy now......

Its not my fault if Russia decided against supplying an enemy country.

oh my god, i havnt seen such a slippery character in my life.

 

[Janbaz]

May be Gripen with transfer of technology should be acquired?

Gotta move up you know, progress!:flag:

 

[Cheetah786]

Gotta move up you know, progress!:flag:

oh my God.zero zilch nada no long term thinking.Not even 1 here thinks pakistan should work with chinese and come up with a home grown solutions.
in case of hostilities what would have happend to russian made engines if we needed spare parts.(i can just see convoy of trucks leaving Russia full of spare parts for pakistan )or swedes giving us spare parts if uncle decides to put sanctions on us again. guys this is the best that could have happend to us long run we are better of .after the chinese install home grown engines chance of sanctions zero. indians lobbying effect zero.

dont forget j-10 is already flying in chinese airforce with there own engines.we will be getteing those birds so jf-17 is just a setback nothing that cant be solved.but if the solution comes with longterm self dependence iam all for it.

 

[Lilo]

Please stop talking out your ***, you have no proof to back you claims up, read this...

recently a chinese website acknowledged the completion of the WS-13 engine and is under going flight trials for the verification of necessary parameters.i'll try to summarise the points that i have found about this engine.

1.It uses solid titanium alloy fan blades.
2.It has a digital authority control system.
3.It has a thrust of about 7.8.
4.It's length is about 4.14 metres.
5.It's diameter is about 1.02 metres.
6.Dry weight of the WS-13 is about 1,135 kg.
7.Maximum thrust of the engine is about is about 86.37 kn.
8.Cruise thrust is about 51.2 kn.
9.Needs an overhaul for every 810 hours.
10.Total life of the engine is about 2200 hours.

http://www.cnwnews.com/Html/soceity/society_js/2006-12/31/11391432.html

The news above was reported on 2006-12-31 11:38:47 and also has been mentioned on PakDef, and other sources well, and I had the article translated by my University teacher to double check the information above., and as I said it will be a year or two delay most.

Its quite amusing to see your "chinese will take care of the rest" attitude. Unfortunately in this case chinese dont seem to have gotten grasp of jet engines tech even for their front line fighters.

This is latest i.e jan 07 update about the development of WS-10 for j-10.

However, after the government's official acknowledgement of the existence of the J-10, an interview with J-10 pilots (such as test pilot Mr. Li Cunbao (李存&#23453) revealed that a domestic engine is highly unlikely to be equipped in J-10s in the near future. In this interview publicized in January 2007, the pilots claimed that though the domestic Chinese engine could match the performance of the Russian one in every parameter, there was a very serious drawback: the domestic Chinese engine, the WS-10, took much longer to reach the same level of performance as its Russian counterpart. (According to Mr. Li Cunbao's experience, as well as other pilots who flew the J-10 with the WS-10A, it took at least 50% longer, and in many other aspects, almost 100% longer.) Although this difference only meant a minute-time differential at most, it was more-than-enough to make a difference between allowing the pilots to safely recover the aircraft by restarting the engine than abandonning the aircraft in a forced ejection. Another problem of the domestic Chinese engine is its lack of FADEC, which is needed for having a same or better aircraft performance when compared with an aircraft with a Russian engine.However, the current WS-10 version available with FADEC is not reliable enough to be accepted into service, and currently all of the matured WS-10s lack FADEC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10

i wasnt able to identify any Chinese sources corroborating the above info coz most chinese sources are written in chinese :wall:
But still i choose to believe this coz this has been written by a chinese guy who is a longstandig editor of this j-10 article on wiki(as seen frm its edit history) and there is no reason to doubt his correctness.

Anyways this is the state of WS-10 (and remember the j-10 program started in 1986) and after 20 years WS-10 is quite far from completion.

now coming to WS-13 its development can be compared with the development of SNECMA M88 (the one used on rafale -which is in the same league as RD-33 and WS-13 with a static thrust of 5113.6 Kgf) .M88 development was started in 1986 and the engine entered production phase in 1996,i.e it took french 10 years to bring the engine from concept to production (and btw M88 is not the first fighter engine to be developed by the french they had already developed similar engines for mirage).

Now how long do you expect the development of WS-13 to go on before it is lined up for production by the chinese??

I'd say taht 12-15 years is a conservative estimate and considering that jf-17 program started in 1999 the WS-13 could be ready at max by 2012 (i.e 5 years from now!).

I'd further go on to say that china has no pressing requirement for jf-17 and any task which could be done by jf-17 could be done better by j-10 (basic version).Also it seems pakistan has no leverage to speed up the project -i.e it hasnt signed any deal stipulating that china needs to refund a part of pakistan's investment if jf-17 goes into significant time overrun. so china has no reason to expediate the development of WS-13 any further than it has at present.

Hence instead of placing all its eggs in one basket and waiting for them to hatch, the best bet for paf would be to induct 30-40 grippen/f16/mirage as a stopgap measure and wait for ws-13 to get completed...whenever taht happens

 

[Lilo]

For the Pakistani's to mate a new powerplant into the empennage of the FC-1which has been designed around the RD-33/93 would not be possible. The 404is a much thinner engine and would necessitate a redesign of the entire rear fuselage. PAC Kamra doesnot have any type of wind tunnel or static testing capabilities. Nor do they have any expertise in a task of such magnitude.

Also Lilo, I don't think Russia would allow these copy cat Chinese to export Russian and Klimov/ ANP Saturn's proprietary and possibly reverse engineered/ copied/ liscensed technology now being used on these so called WS-10/13's to the 'End User' either.

On a hindsight u maybe right,China has access to RD-33 which russians dont allow pakistanis to access and pakistanis have access to GE404 which americans wont allow chinese to access... and if pakistan takes jf-17 development into its own hands....the facilities at PAC Kamra come into question..quite a dilemma actually...may be pakistan shud jus wait for chinese to complete their engines and till then induct some grippen or f16's.If they dont then PAF may face a severe force depletion in the future when f7s and Q5s complete their operational lives.

 

[salman77]

Russian Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister Sergey Borisovich Ivanov dismissed reports that Russia was trying to block China’s transfer of JF-17 fighter aircraft to Pakistan.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=8066

The whole article is actually about indo-russian defence deals about to b signed, but this statement was there.

I don't know how reliable the news is.

 

[HAIDER]

In recent days, if we take notice india signed production of MIG29 engines with russia. And right after this news. Another news surfaced again, that russia will not supply engine to China for jf17.....is india doing all his best to stop the sale and fail this project ?

 

[Keysersoze]

I just had a sudden idea.......What if the Russian's just sell the engine parts to the Chinese? And they let them build the engines themselves? That allows the Russians to keep the Indians AND Chinese happy

 

[Janbaz]

I just had a sudden idea.......What if the Russian's just sell the engine parts to the Chinese? And they let them build the engines themselves? That allows the Russians to keep the Indians AND Chinese happy

I dont get it! Why would India be happy as they know for effect that China cannot leave Pakistan out of the project because of the stake it has.

 

[Janbaz]

In recent days, if we take notice india signed production of MIG29 engines with russia. And right after this news. Another news surfaced again, that russia will not supply engine to China for jf17.....is india doing all his best to stop the sale and fail this project ?

Definately, they cannot see our airforce get modernized. They do not want us to have a qulatative edge in the future and as the JF-17 is to be the backbone of PAF, they gotta do whatever possible.

 

[Keysersoze]

I dont get it! Why would India be happy as they know for effect that China cannot leave Pakistan out of the project because of the stake it has.

It means that Russia can say to India "we didn't sell them engines for those planes" and at the same time China can build their own engines, using parts that have been sold to them.......

 

[PakSniper]

Its quite amusing to see your "chinese will take care of the rest" attitude. Unfortunately in this case chinese dont seem to have gotten grasp of jet engines tech even for their front line fighters.

This is latest i.e jan 07 update about the development of WS-10 for j-10.



i wasnt able to identify any Chinese sources corroborating the above info coz most chinese sources are written in chinese :wall:
But still i choose to believe this coz this has been written by a chinese guy who is a longstandig editor of this j-10 article on wiki(as seen frm its edit history) and there is no reason to doubt his correctness.

Anyways this is the state of WS-10 (and remember the j-10 program started in 1986) and after 20 years WS-10 is quite far from completion.

now coming to WS-13 its development can be compared with the development of SNECMA M88 (the one used on rafale -which is in the same league as RD-33 and WS-13 with a static thrust of 5113.6 Kgf) .M88 development was started in 1986 and the engine entered production phase in 1996,i.e it took french 10 years to bring the engine from concept to production (and btw M88 is not the first fighter engine to be developed by the french they had already developed similar engines for mirage).

Now how long do you expect the development of WS-13 to go on before it is lined up for production by the chinese??

I'd say taht 12-15 years is a conservative estimate and considering that jf-17 program started in 1999 the WS-13 could be ready at max by 2012 (i.e 5 years from now!).

I'd further go on to say that china has no pressing requirement for jf-17 and any task which could be done by jf-17 could be done better by j-10 (basic version).Also it seems pakistan has no leverage to speed up the project -i.e it hasnt signed any deal stipulating that china needs to refund a part of pakistan's investment if jf-17 goes into significant time overrun. so china has no reason to expediate the development of WS-13 any further than it has at present.

Hence instead of placing all its eggs in one basket and waiting for them to hatch, the best bet for paf would be to induct 30-40 grippen/f16/mirage as a stopgap measure and wait for ws-13 to get completed...whenever taht happens

First,. of all Wikipedia is like a last resort thing you can bring up it really holds no value, and the author provides no reference about the claim he is making, when you find a trustable article then bring it up instead of wikipedia, cause even I can go in their and change things around wiki isn't credible, do better next time when bring a counter argument, like I brought the chinese article.

Most of all China is also recieving help from the Russians' in both engines WS-10 and WS-13, either way they will be ready. China wants to be self reliant and is developing their aero industrial capabilities and they aren't that far behind except in radar and some avionics' just give it another decade or two and they wouldn't have any problems.